DR Update Only Mindy Aetheric Pulse Cannon

[Rizzo]

Submission URL

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:weapons:ke-m2-w3001_mindy_aetheric_pulse_cannon

Submission Faction(s)

1. Yamatai (except Elysia)

Submission Terms

1. I agree

As part of the Mindy Accessories updates I've spotted this one that seems to suffer from the classic usage of the word mecha on SARP. Mecha at one time referred to what is now called Power Armor.
The conversion from DRv2 to 3 was imperfect but supports the conversion of this weapon to T7-8, Light to Medium Anti-mecha, however the only other weapon that can do this is the 50 and 20mm gauss cannon which tops out at T7. Having been described as "compact" we can draw the conclusion that it's per-shot damage cannot possibly be the same as a big gun like the 50mm gauss bazooka.

There is another weapon that is comparable in performance. The infamous Aether Beam Saber Rifle. It deals T4 rapid fire aether damage. So we might draw the conclusion that it should be a T4 weapon, but that wouldn't make sense as the shoulder Scalar machinegun deals T4 damage at 18 rounds per second. Matching the damage tier of that weapon would effectively neuter this item and that just won't do! Why use aether when scalar is cleaner and safer to use? For more damage downrange obviously!

So with these things considered, that the words mecha and PA have at one time been synonymous, the impact on the other accessories, and the size/scale of the weapon it is my conclusion that the role this weapon was intended for fits perfectly within the ASBR's optimal performance range. Tier 5, Medium anti-armor. The ASBR and Aether SMG support this assessment, however there is more to it than simply damage considerations.

It is listed that this weapon this weapon has immensely diminished performance in atmosphere due to its compact size. As a result it has an atmospheric range of only 10 meters, a little over 30 feet.
The perceived intention seems to have been to force it to be a space only weapon. This seems almost too restrictive, but in the spirit of the original authors intention I have increased that to only 1 kilometer which is still incredibly short compared to the ASBR's 473,177km.

 

[raz]

The conversion from DRv2 to 3 was imperfect but supports the conversion of this weapon to T7-8, Light to Medium Anti-mecha, however the only other weapon that can do this is the 50 and 20mm gauss cannon which tops out at T7. Having been described as "compact" we can draw the conclusion that it's per-shot damage cannot possibly be the same as a big gun like the 50mm gauss bazooka.

I have used this weapon at Tier 7-8 since that stipulation was put on the wiki, both in SAINT operative Mindy roleplay (my designated marksman characters use it) and in standard Uchuugun roleplay. I choose it for one of the Kirie's two shoulder hardpoint weapon slots because it is Tier 7-8 because it is one of the only Kirie-compatible accessories that is heavy enough to make sense, in combination with a Gauss Cannon, to give my loadout a damage source variation (physical ballistic damage vs aetheric energy damage).

The DR should remain what it always has been and not be retconned. It should be Tier 7 or Tier 8 as described on the page currently; that's the choice for staff to decide between. People have used this weapon for a long time without issue, so having it discovered by new eyes that want it nerfed is not fair and would impact previously definitional roleplay that has occurred and continues to occur.

 

[Rizzo]

Raz, if the power creep continues it’s going to get worse and worse and worse. Then nobody gets to have good RP. I’m not the one who decided to snipe with something the size of a lunchbox. I’m sorry if that bugs you but I have been here since 2014. I know you’ve been here longer, but I am hardly “new eyes”.

 

[raz]

Raz, if the power creep continues it’s going to get worse and worse and worse.

It isn't power creep. This weapon has been DRv3 "Tier 7-8" since a 2019 revision of the article and was DRv2 ADR 4, which converts to that Tier 7-8 under the conversion guidelines. Since it was created in YE 30 (irl year 2007), the Aether Pulse Cannon has been a high powered weapon. This isn't some new development increasing the power of weapons over the years. It has been powerful since the start in 2007.

Nerfing this to Tier 5 would retcon many years of active RP and ongoing Yamataian plots.

 

[Soban]

I read it as being more in line with being a standard type weapon than with being a massive sniper rife. So I agree with Rizzo.

 

[Rizzo]

I would like to clarify, because I know that this is a concern some might have as it is currently being relayed to me. These things deserve to be discussed and cause very understandable concerns for people who use them in their daily role-play.

This is not a nerf. The changes being proposed are to make the DR classification match the intended use and description. A T8 weapon is found on Main Battle Tanks. It’s big and meant to blast buildings.

We can see in DRv3 every three tiers evolves into a new platform. 1-3 are infantry scale weapons, 4-6 are vehicles scale weapons(carriable by PA due to their strength). 7-9 are tank scale weapons, and 10-15 are exclusively naval scale weapons.
I have seen it generally agreed that platforms in each scale can at maximum carry the smallest of the next larger scale. So how does this matter?:

Think of the infamous browning machine gun. That’s T3, humans can shoot it without NEEDING to mount it to a vehicle.
Think of a big 25mm autocannon, That’s T5 and a human would not be able to carry or shoot it without first mounting it to a vehicle(or sufficiently heavy item). The ABSR is able to be the size of a big rifle and be T5 BECAUSE it’s an aether weapon and the PA serves as the ‘vehicle’ as it cannot be used without one.

Here are a few T8 weapons.
The good ol’ Troll Tank has a T8 105mm Gauss/Plasma Cannon.
But that’s not Aether!
True. So I reached back for something similarly aged. In YE 31 we had the Hayabusa V6-1C with heavy cannons that couldn’t figure out if they were T8 or T9. The V6-1D seems to provide clarification because its heavy cannons are listed as T8. It wasn’t a Nerf, they were the same cannons, but with clarification as to intended role. When that starfighter came out, we were not on DRv3 and the conversion is very imperfect. Regardless, in the three aforementioned cases, the gun was bigger than the Mindy!

So this submission is clearly not T8. What about T7? Here we find the 50mm gauss Bazooka and SLAM, both built specifically for cracking hard targets while the 20mm and 50mm shoulder Guass Cannons have to fold up to avoid being in the way when not in use. All 4 are heavy weapons bigger than the ABSR.
But those aren’t Aether!
No, but the equivalents to THIS weapon would be the ABSR and Aether SMG both of which are basically the same size as their shoulder-fired buddy here and top out at T5, except for when the ABSR decides it wants to stop being a gun and starts slashing.

This is a lot and I ask that you give it consideration before objecting as I have explained that this is NOT A NERF. It is simply a textual clarification.

 

[raz]

Changing it would call into question the in-character decision making of every character who has used the Aetheric Pulse Cannon for the past 17 years.

Characters choose their power armor loadouts for specific reasons. The Pulse Cannon is often chosen because it is a shoulder mounted cannon that can bring more firepower to bear than other options. It's the equivalent of a sci-fi recoilless rifle that uses energy instead of solid ammunition. 17 years of RP thought should not be retconned.

I ultimately don't think it'll get nerfed as requested. But if there is a shadow of consideration for this change then I think the established in-character history outweighs justifications for making the Pulse Cannon essentially useless and undifferentiated from handheld Mindy weapons.

 

[Rizzo]

Per the article.
“…the pulse cannon fires small aetheric pulses in quick succession…”
This language does not indicate a weapon intended for killing hardened targets.
“Secondary Purpose: Anti-Missile”
Missiles aren’t exactly well defended.

Don’t get me wrong, I know it says “Cannon” in the name, but more like a 20 mm autocannon and a 120mm cannon are both cannons. It’s just not the same.

If for 17 years, this weapon has been confused for some kind of Uber gun for wasting tanks in a single shot and breaching fortifications then I feel that only reinforces why this clarification is needed!

 

[Commissar Farzi]

Normally I wouldn't chime in unless it was something major like the Starship Speeds update, but after reading it and the original I'm gonna agree with Rizzo; the damage is a bit ridiculous for such a small weapon. Now if it had some tradeoffs for that power then yea I could see that; either that or the Mindy pilots are excellent marksmen and able to hammer the same spot repeatedly in a single volley; entirely possible given the nature of the armor and its pilots-throw enough fire at an already weakened section and boom-bad guy's a greasy red smear-or twisted heap of scrap.

A suggestion I have in regards to it continuing being a tank/mech cracker is maybe either be able to adjust the power setting, give it an even more ridiculous rate of fire, the ability to charge up a bolt, or maybe an anti-armor I-beam? Snipe them tanks! These could come at the cost of rate of fire, excessive heat build-up to potentially rendering the weapon unstable, or even any combination. I find it's best when writing these sorts of things to have a good balance between these things; a trade-off so to speak.

 

[Wes]

As part of the Mindy Accessories updates I've spotted this one that seems to suffer from the classic usage of the word mecha on SARP. Mecha at one time referred to what is now called Power Armor.

That's not the case at all. Look at this, from the DRv3 page:

You can see that armor and mecha are clearly different things and this is an anti-mecha weapon, not an anti-power armor one. All of the aether-based weapons on the Mindy have really high damage because it's aether. The DRv2 was ADR 4 so this was converted correctly based on the DRv3 conversion guidelines.

 

[Rizzo]

Evidence to the contrary can be found in the "Damage per Interval" and "Converting from v2 rules."

Damage Per Interval​

SADRv2 had values like PDR/ADR/SDR calculate the damage potential a weapon could output under 10 seconds, so it tried to abstractly take rate-of-fire into account.
Weapon lethality under SADRv3 is counted “per-use”, or “per-shot”. Unless we deal with very slow-firing weapons, the rough conversion offered above is indeed 'rough'.

As we can see here, the damage interval is drastically different causing the afore mentioned chart to be described as "rough". Further advision:

Converting from SADRv2​

The “rough and dirty” heading above can(not will) help, but the spirit of converting weapons into SADRv3 was first meant to encourage it looking dramatic, cinematic.
With this said, if a weapon was made to cause damage to a light armor (Tier 4) on multiple hits, it should not be considered a light anti-armor (Tier 4) weapon. While the weapon can be described as being used to assault such targets, when it comes to the tier the author should, depending on the intended effect of the weapon, consider whether the weapon will prove lethal on a single hit for a heavy personnel (Tier 3) or medium personnel (Tier 2) target and label it as such.
To give an example, the Light Armor Service Rifle was designed for use near friendly assets where the potential collateral damage of more powerful weapons was not desired. As such, while it has frequently been employed in an anti-armor role the weapon can be better thought of as a heavy anti-personnel (Tier 3) weapon, as a single shot to a vital area - such as the head or torso - is likely to incapacitate such a target (or penetrate Mishhuvurthyar carapace), but would take longer to chew through power armor.

This is a rapid-fire weapon, and therefore is not dealing T7-8 per shot. It is doing so over the course of 10 seconds of sustained fire to a single spot.
Its per-shot damage would more likely be T4, the same as the ABSR and Aether SMG, but giving it T5 makes it truly fill the role it seems to have been meant for, a machine gun.

 

[Fred]

I was trying to get context, and then I realized this was the shoulder cannon and not the default forearm weapon of the Mindy. then I went to look at the forearm weapons to have a basis for comparison, and a boggled a bit.

The Mindy Aether saber is anime-as-fuck. That's its main purpose.

Secondly, it's the signature weapon used by the Mindy. I've seen a Mindy used by a Samurai with a saber rifle go out in a blaze of glory destroying multiple Mishhuvurthyar battleships in the Battle of Hoshi no Iori. I've seen an accidentally lit saber rifle disintegrate an unlucky (inactive) crewman. I've seen them used to laboriously carve through doors just like the two Jedis do in The Phantom Menace. I've seen a Mindy fire on another Mindy, score a head-shot, and not penetrate.

All are instances written by Wes. So, I know it's the favored child. But it's rarely been consistent within the scope of roleplay, wandering from "I want my cool weapon to be the best there is" to "It shouldn't do that much, it'd be too easy for the story/challenge I'm presenting".

So, in knowledge of bias, I would stress that Wes' weapons usually behave more reasonably, but only in his plots. Outside of his plots, his stuff is supposed to be better. Period. I've heard it called the "Wes tax". I'm retired staff, I've seen wierd stuff throughout the years, and I'm going to call things the way I see them. Wes may not like it, but he'll hopefully see it as constructive. Worse comes to worse, he knows he has the bigger stick and can veto his decision through whatever.

So, Rizzo, before you get all twisted into being super-passionate about this conversion, keep that in mind. The process is not necessarily fair. sometimes you fight a battle, try to deliver the message, and if it doesn't work ... better to see what else you can win rather than batter yourself raw against a wall. This is no crusade worth winning if you end up being sore about it.

Now, what I'm going to do is judge thing in a vacuum. Just cinematically. I'm going to begin establishing my mental picture with a weapon I made for the Mindy II.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

The forearm weapon fires bolts. Lots of them. It's aether - supposed to be strong, but the purpose was anti-armor. I'm loath to have them kill a Mindy in a single hit, but the Mindy has barriers. So, Rapid Pulse Mode is Light Anti-armor in my head.

Beam mode for the forearm weapons is serious business. That's one thing that should be able to core through a Mindy's torso. A Daisy? Probably. A Light vehicle? you'd probably total it if you aimed in the right spot. So, Beam Mode is potentially Heavy Anti-Armor. It's the kind of firing mode valued by snipers, and people would be thinking about anti-materiel rifles.

Saber Mode... well, it's an aether blade able to cut through big doors. but I don't think it'd destroy a large shuttle even with a single good slash. A small shuttle, though? Yup. Medium? Yeah, I could see a Mindy carve out the torso of a Battletech 45-ton Phoenix Hawk. So, I'd edge the Aether blade being a Medium Anti-Mecha weapon mode.

Maybe not in a single hit, but I like how neat the 4-6-8 progression is and GMs will probably apply common sense. Potentially lethal does not mean always lethal.

edit: In hindsight, this makes less sense, because this is supposed to be 4-5-6. I'd say I underestimated the size of the units in the mecha category in my mental picture.

...

With that mental picture, I fall to the shoulder weapon. it's common for the shoulder weaponry to be heavier, but that's not the story the text tells me. it feels supplemental, more like it's meant to assist and strike things out of your forward firing arcs. I don't see a high rate-of-fire weapon that's supposed to swing around and be quick have the deliberate fire power the saber rifle beam mode has.

So, in my head - with an image evoked by the flavor text - I think this feels like a Light Anti-armor weapon. It probably is an extra limb firing the rapid pulse mode the forearm weapon does. To me, that makes sense.

_____________________________________________________________________________________

If other relate to the mental picture, what I said might be useful. Maybe they'll stew on it and consider/reconsider. Or maybe they tell us what their imagination supports the weapon doing, and that mental picture will justify or adjust the perceived lethality of the weapon.

As all conversations should. if only one person had all the good ideas, Star Army would be a novel written by Wes, not a roleplaying community.

Have at it, folks.

 

[raz]

I'm not really willing to see this weapon reduced below Tier 7 because it's been in that range for years. A lot of established roleplay utilizes the weapon as a Tier 7/8 weapon (or ADR 4 before that) because it's what the wiki has always said. It's not fair to those of us who have done that roleplay (which have always been accurate depictions based on the canon established by the wiki) to have the weapon retconned because someone who hasn't done roleplay with the weapon has an incorrect mental image of its power.

 

[Fred]

So, do you think the damage per shot of this weapon should outdo what the suit's primary weapon does in rapid-fire mode?

Was this a big aether chaingun in your head? Like, more like a squad-assist-weapon?

Because the fix for this could simply be covered by two weapons, and not the one.

The upper-tiers of aether firepower is usually expressed by the larger beam mode, but that's not what this weapon is... or why it didn't fall in the same knock-out punch category the Gauss shoulder cannons do ... at least not in my head.

Though, I'm fairly sure this shoulder-weapon is not one I made so I'd hardly call my vision definitive.

I'm glad to know you have a stake in this. That you've used this. That means you can take up a paint brush and establish for me what this weapon is and feels like, beyond just the numbers on the page.

 

[raz]

I've already stated multiple times the only compelling reason: Many years of RP has used what the wiki has said, and it is unfair to retcon all of that RP because Rizzo reads the article and decides the gun should be weaker.

That means you can take up a paint brush and establish for me what this weapon is and feels like, beyond just the numbers on the page.

When reading the wiki to research before writing roleplay, both the flavor text and the DR must be considered holistically in addition to comparative knowledge. The Aetheric Pulse Cannon has always been either ADR 4 or "Tier 7/8 Staff needs to determine which." The flavor text—combined with the fire rate of up to 3 pulses per second and DR stats—suggests this weapon is a hard-hitting anti-armor weapon for space combat that can output volume of fire if desired, but has limited atmospheric applications due to lacking "proper focusing hardware" because of "its compact nature." That compactness doesn't mean this is a weapon the size of an NSP, but rather means that it's compact for a cannon of its class so is still a big ol' barrel strapped to a power armor's shoulder hardpoint. Smaller than the Mindy 1H's "Rapid Fire Heavy Beam Cannons" (themselves a verified Tier 8 with high rate of fire) but a similar sort of weapon.

There's no justifiable basis for "ackshually it should be Tier 4 or Tier 5" because the wiki's text has always put it at ADR 4 or Tier 7/8.

So please stop trying to do that. Not necessarily you, Fred. But the choice here is between the established Tier 7 or 8, not a hard nerf down to Tier 4 or 5. That's ludicrous and invalidates some of the best combat RP that's been written for Star Army to satisfy a misguided view of the setting's power levels. I personally think Tier 7 is appropriate because of the aforementioned "compact nature."

 

[Fred]

Thinking more on this, I think this weapon's description does a bad job of expressing its might. It says Cannon in the title, and then gives me compact and small pulses - man, this has no bite.

If this is such the great weapon Raz seems to be enthused about, I wouldn't see this as a small gimbaled turret the size of the pistol-part of the saber-rifle, and more like a fold-out, maybe triple-barreled beam gattling. The turret spoke to me more about mass space combat as in, helps you track targets in the same way the mini-missiles are usually fire-and-forget weapon to help you deal with a larger number of threats. A multi-barrelled gattling gun with a longer muzzle wouldn't be able to pick off opponents to the side and rear as easily (larger, harder to pivot), but you could have those aimed forward at a standoff distance and snipe.

Following the enthusement Raz has for this weapon, a 3/sec fire-rate means that - if you're targeting an Hayabusa II starfighter, you get through its barrier and might land a lethal hit. If you're carrying two, one per shoulder, then you're assuredly getting through the barrier and getting better odds that one of those ruinous shot is going to hit somewhere the fightercraft can get away with.

If that's the vision, I'd encourage the fluff text of this weapon to have a rewrite, because this wears none of the gravitas the Gauss Bazooka has. While writing this, Isaw Raz post, and he made 'compact' somehow seem like it was an asset to this weapon's power. Why? Is it compact because it's a fighter-scale weapon that was subnosed and somehow fits on a power armor?

If this is Tier 7, I think a quality pass should be done on the submission's text to look more the part. Not any shoulder pea-shooter should be able to carve over a T7 Raccoon's barrier and shoot it right across it's insides (possibly killing the people/power armor inside) with what this single paragraph says.

I respect that it has history. But in that case...
Please fix it. not necessarily Raz, though he seems to have the passion for it. But... Make. Me. Feel. The. Hype. Make me feel the power. A nepleslian should be reading this wiki article and feel something in his loins.

Not what this wimpy single paragraph does. At least the gauss shoulder cannon tries a little harder.
Or better yet, this thing? *chef's kiss* I get my mental hard-on just from the first line, "collapsing coilgun". Badass.

 

[Ametheliana]

I think moving it to 7, not 8, is a good way to bring it down to something manageable but not create something that negates its RP'd effects. We could also update the descriptive text to be more in line with its power and make it seem bigger than a lunchbox, to help Rizzo's mental image.

This is one of my favorite Ketsurui Aiko killing Mishhuvurthyar with this weapon quotes, to satisfy Fred:

The Aetheric Pulse Cannon mounted to her armor's right shoulder sprayed out a hail of vibrant pink energy darts, joined by additional pulses of white hot aether machine gun fire from her Forearm Weapons — both held out forward behind balled fists to blanket the corridor with cleansing death — to track and kill as much of the seeker swarm as possible.

And then this is my favorite piece of dialogue of hers that is supported by her aether shoulder cannon:

"Once we see our foes, take them out one-by-one in a deliberate elimination pattern," Aiko said, readying the two cannons mounted to her Thought Armor's shoulder hardpoints so that they pointed forward toward whatever awaited them. "Those Mishhuvurthyar will look up at us with fading eyes by the time they realize their doom."

These are just a few of many instances of raz using this weapon and "...lancing [the enemies] with pink aether gatling fire..." from it. It seems to be something that adds an ineffable coolness (see: rule of cool) to his RP and I'd hate to see it taken away from my plot and others.

 

[raz]

I wouldn't really say I'm an enthusiast for this weapon, Fred. It's just that I do not appreciate someone pushing to change established canon on an uninformed whim. The other changes recently (barrier module and NSBs) have been fine and DR converted properly, and so have done nothing to retcon valuable RP depictions. But to change the Aetheric Pulse Cannon is out-of-line with the spirit of updating Mindy accessories as well as what has been long established for the weapon.

 

[Fred]

Nobody told me this went on a Thought Armor. I thought I was commenting on Mindy II shoulder weapons. x_x

A light mecha having shoulder cannons that kills other light mechas makes a lot of sense to me.

I still think it's a terrible article, though. Expressions in the quoted text shoulder be used as inspiration to spruce up the text. I'm happy to see this be Tier 7, I'd just like the article to rise up to that level of badassery.

edit: I would argue uninformed whim is a fault of the article too. The article should be enough to inform - with no questions asked - of the awesomeness herein. I stress it doesn't. I'm happy with Raz interpretation, and I think this history should be used to better the article.

 

[raz]

Nobody told me this went on a Thought Armor. I thought I was commenting on Mindy II shoulder weapons. x_x

It's for the Mindy, but the Thought Armors can use all Mindy accessories because they lack many of their own.