Phoenix Arms Corporation's DD4 Class Destroyer

Bumping this up so this can be reviewed for approval.

I'll take care of the interior details (through RP) after we get the major things discussed on this ship.

I'll hold back on commentary until others have spoken, because, well, this will be Nepleslia's ship.

Thanks for finishing it up, sir!

I'm a bit concerned about the extreme speeds, which are a huge jump from even the fastest current ships.

While I commend Derran for making the effort of making the ship itself for Tom's sake... I must say I find the design to be totally overpowered.

It does everything way way better than a similarly sized Star Army ship - no moderation seems to have been brought into this design: its fairly bristling with weapons, armor and system that makes even the Sakura-class look like garbage scows.

Sorry Derran, but I really can't read all of the above and not come out of it with finding the reading distasteful to some extent. I knew the NDI have overpowered equipment (that actually was brought to my attention rather plainly when I began using NDI suits as opposing suits for my virtual training session on the YSS Miharu plotship) but this is really really pushing it. I can't even figure out how a ship could have so many cannons! x_x

Well, ever since NDI ships have been using gravimetric drives they've been able to reach .99c. Confederate hyperstream drives (their version of your CDD system) are highly unstable with the propulsion fields they create, so the faster you go, the higher chance you have of blowing your engines (both hyperstream and gravimetric). Hyperdrive speeds are extreme in this setting because in the Draconian Sector, centuries of warfare have left the ability to execute hyperspace jumps only viable to do along established starlanes (which is why certain worlds on both sides have been left largely untouched due to the inability of each side to get forces there without going through heavily fortified defenses). As far as I know, such restrictions do not exist in this setting. The DD4 represents sixth-generation warship technology on the part of the Confederation, so its advanced propulsion technology is a leap from what you've seen even from newer vessels like the Sierra-Romeo.

The main weapon of this vessel is similar in function to the Sakura.

Outside of that, it has 26 anti-warship guns and then 48 point-defense guns -- 16 forward, 10 rear.

I don't consider it overpowered, personally. The Sakura is every bit as deadly (if not more) because of its faster-charging main gun even though the DD4 has a wider array of secondary and tertiary weapons.

If this warship is overpowered, then so is every warship class the Star Army fields. To me, the objections seem to stem from that.....it is a match for the Yamataian counterpart, the Sakura.

The fastest (CDD) ship in the known universe, the refit Chiharu-class Battleship, goes at an insanely-fast 300,000c and 7LY/min hyperspace. The fast Hyperspace Fold System in the universe, the Sakura's is 20/LY min and no other ship really comes close; the average HFS speed of Star Army ships is somewhere between 5 to 7 LY/min. The Chiharu's speed was originally proposed as 400,000c, but it was nerfed down because that was way too fast. See: Discussion: Tweaking FTL Travel (and possibly The Limits of Technology).

You're complaining to me about the DD4's speed yet seemed to have ignored this entirely:

Note: Confederate produced hyperstream drives produce a highly unstable propulsion field that becomes increasingly more dangerous as speed increases. As such, use extreme caution as hyperstream drive failure can result in damage to the vessel's other propulsion systems, namely the gravimetric drive system.

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Furthermore, you act as if only Star Army ships are allowed to be the best in whatever category that's being discussed. Yes, the DD4 is faster than the Chiharu using its hyperstream drive; yes, the DD4 is faster than the Sakura using its inter-phased hyperspace drive. Yes, the DD4 outguns pretty much every other ship of its size.

What's the problem? You bring up how fast those two classes are as if it has any bearing on what the DD4 was designed to do at all.

As I'm reading the two threads you've pointed out......namely the FTL travel one, you have to understand that in the NDI universe, you're dealing with thousands of light-years between habitable worlds. The Milky Way Galaxy is about 100,000 LY in diameter and the Draconian Sector itself spans maybe 15,000 LY from edge to edge, so the kinds of speeds the FTL drives the Confederates use and are currently developing (some of which are showing up in the design of the DD4) are completely reasonable as a result.

Known Star Army space is much smaller in comparison, so of course a ship that can use a inter-phased drive to go 35 LY/minute seems crazy since it can traverse the known Star Army universe in less than five minutes.

I think the issue is that Wes has been trying to get the SARP's technology presented to a more manageable level little by little. Granted, this has been a slow process, but submissions are starting to show more moderation and a leaning toward efficiency over brute power.

The DD4 sort of comes and kicks that intent right in the face. What we are having here is more than just a case of 'the NDI has traits which are stronger than the Star Army of Yamatai' or different outlooks on warfare (like in the following quote, taken from the Uriko.):

In the end, the Star Army version of the Uriko bomber was a much stealthier quick-strike unit, whereas the NDI version as a slower, offensive juggernaut bristling with an array of weapons. Each version of the Uriko reflects each faction's distinct strengths: The Star Army prefers exceptional grace and finesse in the field of battle, using Nekovalkyrja pilots. In contrast, the NDI Spacy prefers to bring to bear overwhelming and merciless firepower upon their enemies, relying on AI systems to do the job.

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That differenciates both side, but that's not the actual problem. The problem is a different point of perception and outlook on each setting, making the SARP and the universe the NDI is in imminently incompatible. For example, for you, Derran, the Super Phalanx C might be the hottest power armor around... but to Wes, it's around the level of the KFY Kylie - even if, in your mind, the Phalanx C would be so incredibly powerful that it could wipe out three Mindy armors in a row and not break a sweat.

My suggestion is to allow the DD4 to be toned down. I really don't think it even needs half the guns it has to be able to give a good showing of itself. It could claim being a very fast ships in the hands of the Nepleslians even if it just went at 200 000c FTL; 6 LY/m fold. Its not because the NDI can make super duper starships that they have to give the Nepleslians the very best they can manage back home. Another point would be that it could be nice if you could make a NDI ship for the level of tech the SARP is trying to tone down to (or at least not exploit so blatantly) instead of just tacking so much stuff on a spaceframe with the thought that bigger numbers makes things cooler. And that's considering the DD4 isnt all that large for all the hardware she packs.

I appologize if I sounded harsh in the above statement, as I still think its very swell of you to help Tom out... but the DD4 is going a bit too far for this setting's aims (in which, yes, Yamatai is the meaner, stronger, older sister to everyone else)

In other words: The DD4 actually poses a threat to Star Army warships, therefore it's too powerful for this setting.

I have no problems in general as far as toning it down on minor things such as speed, but the Nepleslians enlisted the assistance of the NDI's primary defense contractor because they wanted a space navy that was capable of not only defending the Empire, but truthfully being able to bring the fight to their enemies. I took that into account when I sat down and began to design this warship.

I could've just as easily began to just modify existing NDI designs and impress them into service with the Nepleslians, but I knew that a new design was in order to fit the needs of the Nepleslians. They needed speed, they needed something that would maximize the effectiveness of every soldier. Furthermore, I knew that the carrier-centric NDI Spacy (almost every ship carries a squadron or two of fighters and at least a battallion of Phalanx armor) wasn't going to fit the needs of the Nepleslian Star Army. So I created a pure ship-killer - a destroyer - for the Nepleslian Star Army.

A ship-killing vessel's primary purpose is to destroy other ships. So I added a main gun similar to that used on Star Army gunships, but then I realized that while the main gun recharged, it needed to be able to bring to bear a lot of firepower, so I added a very potent array of secondary turrets.

The DD4 is the very model of efficiency; it makes use of every bit of space it has. There is not a single wasted square inch of space on this warship - as it is with almost all Phoenix Corporation vessels. The DD4 was designed to bring to bear overwhelming firepower to any target it comes across. Sure, I could strip down the destroyer to a level you'd like, but it'd be ineffective for it's combat role.

So when you sit here and tell me that the DD4 is overpowered, I look at you like you're just being silly. If this ship is overpowered, then every ship the Star Army fields is overpowered.

I don't play the double standard game.

Derran Tyler said:

I don't play the double standard game.

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You should. That's the way it is, unless Wes says otherwise.

Everyone has attempted to tone down tech. That includes new SA vessels. The Sakura was the last of the "UBER MIGHTY VESSELS." That Wes uses it for his plotship is his decision.

His sandbox, after all.

I've apprecited both your criticisms and praise, Derran. You've been helpful to me beyond words, I must admit. And if this remains unapproved, Nepleslia as a PLOT is screwed again. So I don't say this stuff lightly.

But seriously. Without meaning to, you're pissing all over Thomas' works, which he literally seems to slave over to make right. And you're pissing on the system, which is designed to make Yamatai the strongest, in part to give Wes control (again, his sandbox).

I know you don't mean to do those things. You're cool, not an asshole. Work with us here, please.

The problem with approving this "as is" is that it would start an starship arms race that would totally negate the slow progress we've made with reducing the overall technology level.

How about 25 LY/min hyperspace and 250,000c hyperpulse/distortion? This makes it almost as fast as Sakura in curved FTL travel and faster than the Sakura in hyperspace. The reason for this is that the NDI has been working on hyperspace for a long time, but only in recent years has adopted hyperpulse (during the 2nd Draconian War).

I got no problems with compromising on the speed - I usually tend to aim a bit higher than what I think will fly just to create a topic of discussion.

I'll go with the figures suggested by Wes on the speed.

And as far as 'Yamatai must always be the strongest' I feel that's hogwash - there's nothing really to RP if that has to remain true. Of course, I still think that the SMX was never truly a threat based on my view of the stats alone and that it was only a credible threat because of Wes' administrative fiat and nothing else.

I guess that's why I paused the Second Draconian War RP indefinitely - because the Jaaq'tah and Sentinels as they were were only truly a match for the NDI and the Draconian League because I said they were and not because they truly were. I've spent the better part of two years retooling the main bad guys in the NDI universe and even the NDI itself to create a universe where the outcome isn't really certain - where the good guys can and do lose things of importance.

Remember - while Wes is the guy who put together this great website, it was me along with my partners Marty and Sam that pioneered this shit six years ago while we were young, ambitious brats in high school. Things are going to evolve - the original NDI looks nothing like the NDI I'm going to unveil over the next few months.

Hopefully a bit of my retooling will rub off on the guy I inspired to take this shit to the next level.

And just for future refrence: There are no ill feelings towards any of you who raised objections to the DD4. It's not that serious, so don't take my statements as some kind of insult.

Starship approved for SARP usage.

Can't wait to see the interior descriptions.

*nods* We love you Derran.

I guess we really wanted you to create a ship that would help us, the GMs, out. So it's not so much for the Nepleslians as it is for us. The ship is meant to give the Nepleslian fleets their own identity, not a bid from Nepleslian to reclaim surpremacy.

Unless Tom has told you otherwise.

I second the approval, on the condition that Wes promises me that no arms race will take place, and Tom promises me that the DD4s will take it easy on the cruising speed to avoid engine damage.

How many of these are the Nepleslians getting, anyway? ^_^;