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Questions about the Rules 001

phacon

Inactive Member
Unfortunately as I help Toshiro standardize, a couple generals issue has come up as a result recent Nepleslian Tech and more recently while researching the validity of the comment Sean sent me about the standardization. Here is the first one:
#A submission must meet a reasonable level of plausibility and scientific explanation).

At least one a month, I come across things that I know deep in my heart would not be realistic either because it Utilitarian Engineering Ethics or more recently during this specific month as I have looked at past articles such as one on 1st Formulation of Deontological Ethics. Notice that this is not a personal religious ethics but in fact Engineering Ethics, which is the fundamental thing that decide the morality of technology in modern society.
How really do you without offending someone inform them that their technology is not scientifically plausible because no ethical engineer would make it?

Other times, I find that the implementation of a certain technology is not very plausible because it doesn't match how modern technology works.
For example take conventional stealth on SARP when used underwater. From what I under stand all these metaalloys like Zesuaium and Xirulium and hyperspace stealth technology really is based on the concept of how surface ships have camouflage. In real life, this is plausible in air because most of the sensors are active and fundamental principle is to be stealthy and fast.

However, in Underwater its the opposite. Most of of the sensors are passive and require passive stealth like simple eraser rubber mountings. The fundamental principle is not to be stealthy and fast; however, to be to be slow and stealthy like sharks. Its why the sharks were originally called sea-wolves before the seawolf came around then topped them. Later all submarines got this name, the most famous example being the USS Seawolf

Also it turns out that the stealth materials used for B2 bombers and for other ships actually light up acoustically ships under water because of how the earth's magnetic field interacts with liquids or magnetohydrodynamics. In the same way most conventionally stealth, either adds to or doesn't resolve the problem of "engine noise" or "rudder noise", which Nuclear Submarines and Silent Running.

^Now really did you read that large paragraph above?

did you!?

.... If you didn't and skips to you here or are so angry you want to throw something at me then, I feel like you may start to feel my point.

So how really do you without offending someone inform them that their technology is not scientifically plausible? More so how do you do it in a way that still allows them to have the need that they wanted tech to do?

I say this because I am honestly worried that the Tech and Setting Managers sometimes lack either the experience or knowledge that Fay had about aquatic technology. I mean I personally right now have spent nearly 2-4 hours everyday researching aquatic technology to bring to SARP or checking whether or not something is legitimate. I didn't even know until a few days ago that CFS tech actually didn't work underwater till I talked to my uncle who was I nuclear engineer to see how actual submarines work.
 
By the way I know one option is to look for what are called creative alternatives(*) in Engineering; however, find successful alternatives is very hard and time consuming process.

<<;


*Creative Alternatives are the fundamental thing used when Engineer's ethically cannot do what management wants them to do.

So please do think deeply about this
 
And the problem only gets worse when the majority of people treat space combat like surface or underwater ship combat!

We can't be expected to know everything, and mistakes will be made. The best thing you can do is when you learn something, and observe something being done incorrectly on the site, post to that effect and try and try to provide a link to both the thing being used incorrectly and somewhere with infromation about how it is supposed to work.

Jimmy did this very recently with the mach numbers and speed ratings for atmospheric craft and underwater travel. He pointed out how I was using mach numbers wrong (especially for super cavitation underwater!).
 
The line of plausible is a difficult one, and something the tech mods have to decide. But you have to remember one important this, SARP is a science fiction roleplay site, so the term plausible does not mean can it work in the 20th century, but more along the lines does how the subscription is written make sense, not violate and cannon rules of the SARPverse, and could such a thing work. Every day our scientists find out that preconceived concepts about the universe are challenged and in that challenging, new discoveries are made. So sometimes it comes down to does it make sense, is the article well written so that a user can understand the device and how it works, and is it good for roleplay.
 
I guess a lot of it comes down to suspension of disbelief, I try to focus on telling a good yarn, rather than design future-tech bolt by bolt. This occasionally leads me to butt heads with others here, but I think the general principals are:

Comprehensible: Players can easily figure out how to use it, and get it to do what they want, even if they don't understand exactly how it works. For instance, I have no fricken clue how a microwave works apart from nuking.

Meaningful: The item is there for a reason, players can use it (sometimes frequently), and it serves it's purpose. Cars could be an example, everyone uses them, they might have opened the bonnet a few times to change the oil, but they probably have no idea how the little explosions in the gaskets makes the wheels go 'round.

A Fancy Name: A name can be very important, e.g. The Gravity Gun from HL2, the Zero-Point Energy Manipulator makes you go “WTH?” but it distracts you from the likely hood of this thing actually being plausible, the fact that it also comes in handy is also helpful.


Also, remember that scientific morals and engineering morals do not always go hand in hand, you could find that Nietzche's hopes are fulfilled and future society suffers a large break down in moral values. Considering most of the SaoY could be counted as slave labour, that would suggest that somewhere things went terribly wrong. :-\
 
Deontology attempts to describe entirely subjective opinions as anything else, even going so far as to describe them as being objective. Any rule made by a person or group of because it fits a set of needs is inevitably going to be distorted by the personal values of the people writing them. In effect, one cannot remove subjective morality from supposedly objective rules, so the entire concept of creating rules-based morality is a joke, and deontological ethics are a safety blanket for people who have too many inhibitions or want to elevate themselves above religious morals.

It's also sort of invalid in a sci-fi setting where we have extreme instances of transhumanism, and many of the site's factions do not operate under the same moral foundation as 21st century human society (the NMX come to mind, but the Lorath possess indentured servants who are effectively the same as slaves, and the Nepleslian government tests weapons, medicines and safety settings of various devices on clones and death row inmates).
 
The place is for fun, not for IRL morality and ethics. So what you constitute as fair and fun may not be for others.

So I ask. Why do you really want to try to bring such ideals here and for what purpose? Why should I listen? How does this help me? Why should such things be brought to a role play site? Is it worth it?
 
What's the subject here? The ethics of the setting, the ethics of the players, the plausibility of the technology, or the best means for presenting constructive criticism?

Since I don't know much about ethics, nor underwater stealth technology, I'll give my two cents on the process of constructive criticism...

If you are showing someone the problems with their submission in non-aggressive terms while offering them an alternative that will allow them to get the same effect while staying within their chosen field of design, and you aren't being a jerk about it, then you have done what you can to help them address the problems you had with the minimum of conflict. If the submitter STILL gets offended, it probably is not your fault (unless there was a way to present it that you didn't notice...in which case, ask someone else -- since the offended one will not likely be in the mood to help you -- what went wrong and what you could have done to avoid such incidents in future criticisms). "There is only an offense if one is taken."
 
Soresu said:
The place is for fun, not for IRL morality and ethics. So what you constitute as fair and fun may not be for others.

So I ask. Why do you really want to try to bring such ideals here and for what purpose? Why should I listen? How does this help me? Why should such things be brought to a role play site? Is it worth it?
Well the ethics thing is more my personal issue. Honestly, its because sometimes I feel that things can come up that the Rules don't cover and my own personal moral common sense feels confused about. In fact, is its __________ for ________ species worth it, is something that come up a lot for me.

The Ethics of Engineering is something designed so that engineers can be moral and ethic people regardless of their personal morality. In the same way, I feel that for me personally it allows me to, when their are exceptional cases, follow the rules and new standardizations even if sometimes I am confused or personally disagree with them. Thus, the ethics of engineers is something for me that helps to supplement and support the rules. I am well aware that it may not be the same thing for everyone.
2nd reason, I mentioned ethics of engineering because I learned a few week ago that interestingly enough, Spock's version of Vulcanism is actually Utilitarianism under a different name. So sometimes fiction, the logic of engineers and scientists is actually engineering ethics under a new name to make it look like its new. I thought that from a literary standpoint it draws interesting conclusions.

Exhack said:
It's also sort of invalid in a sci-fi setting where we have extreme instances of transhumanism, and many of the site's factions do not operate under the same moral foundation as 21st century human society (the NMX come to mind, but the Lorath possess indentured servants who are effectively the same as slaves, and the Nepleslian government tests weapons, medicines and safety settings of various devices on clones and death row inmates).
Yeah, I know their are problems with each of the Ethical Theories. This kind of why I also think they more supplement the rules for me.
Here is off-topic aside to about ethics:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5513&p=82192#p82192
 
MissingNo said:
What's the subject here? The ethics of the setting, the ethics of the players, the plausibility of the technology, or the best means for presenting constructive criticism?
No, maybe talking about ethics was a bit too much detail about how I personally find problems. The question was more of one I find a problem, how to I best communicate those problems in a meaningful way. I really do apprechaite the comments that were given out. They are really helpful, especially the sentances below:
MissingNo said:
If you are showing someone the problems with their submission in non-aggressive terms while offering them an alternative that will allow them to get the same effect while staying within their chosen field of design, and you aren't being a jerk about it, then you have done what you can to help them address the problems you had with the minimum of conflict.
Uso said:
We can't be expected to know everything, and mistakes will be made. The best thing you can do is when you learn something, and observe something being done incorrectly on the site, post to that effect and try and try to provide a link to both the thing being used incorrectly and somewhere with information about how it is supposed to work.
Nashoba said:
Every day our scientists find out that preconceived concepts about the universe are challenged and in that challenging, new discoveries are made. So sometimes it comes down to does it make sense, is the article well written so that a user can understand the device and how it works, and is it good fo roleplay.
Jimmy said:
I think the general principals are:

Comprehensible: Players can easily figure out how to use it, and get it to do what they want, even if they don't understand exactly how it works. For instance, I have no fricken clue how a microwave works apart from nuking.

Meaningful: The item is there for a reason, players can use it (sometimes frequently), and it serves it's purpose. Cars could be an example, everyone uses them, they might have opened the bonnet a few times to change the oil, but they probably have no idea how the little explosions in the gaskets makes the wheels go 'round.

A Fancy Name: A name can be very important, e.g. The Gravity Gun from HL2, the Zero-Point Energy Manipulator makes you go “WTH?” but it distracts you from the likely hood of this thing actually being plausible, the fact that it also comes in handy is also helpful.
Exhack said:
Deontology is also sort of invalid in a sci-fi setting where we have extreme instances of trans-humanism, and many of the site's factions do not operate under the same moral foundation as 21st century human society (the NMX come to mind, but the Lorath possess indentured servants who are effectively the same as slaves, and the Nepleslian government tests weapons, medicines and safety settings of various devices on clones and death row inmates).
Soresu said:
The place is for fun, not for IRL morality and ethics. So what you constitute as fair and fun may not be for others.
 
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