Questions on how to explain Fold Theory

[phacon]

So, I have been brainstorming of what to put into the Engineering Guide for the hyperspace/fold portion using the following pirate pad.

http://piratepad.net/9Up3zdL3jG

And I need a little bit of help/feedback on what to put and how much to summarize. Beyond the scope of the questions, anything you guys can think of to add about SARP's fold system would be helpful:

 

[Wes]

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=hyperspace_travel

 

[phacon]

First, for the introduction to the concept of hyperspace I gave this:

The exact definition of hyperspace, beyond being just a plot device, varies depending on who you ask. In fact you, the reader, probably have your own definition. There are however 3 very common definitions of hyperspace:

• hyperspace is any space with dimensions greater than 3 (mathworld.wolfram.com/Hyperspace.html)
• hyperspace is another name for, Minkowski Space, four-dimensional space-time of special relativity (Wikipedia)
• hyperspace is any topological space who has some of its elements are a subsets of another space, but not all elements are subset. In other words, hyperspace is space of dimension N+1 or higher for a space of dimension N. Thus the hyperspace of Minkowski Space would be a space-time of dimension 5 or greater.

In SARP, people use the three definitions interchangeably. For the purposes of this article however, we will refer to hyperspace as the space-time of dimension 5 or greater, we will call 4D space-time Minkowski Space or relativity space. This is primarily because if you really think about it we live and sense in a 4D space where everything is limited by the speed of light

I wrote mainly on the definition of what is hyperspace because I need to set a difference between 4D and 5D, for when I talk about other drive system, like wormholes. What do you guys think? Does anyone have any problems with it?

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Beyond what I have done so far, I feel like need to include more information into the details of hyperspace, so I thought about perhaps just defining:

Hyper-drives and fold-drives are special systems in a star ship that allow it to enter and exit hyperspace" They are so complex they seem to enter and exit hyperspace as if by "magic".

and then linking to
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=hyperspace_travel

However, I am hesitant to stop just there because I feel like I would only be explaining to readers hyperspace as just a "plot device", and not really going deeper.

What do you guys suggest? What do you think I should include? Does anyone have a specific tv series they got their definition of hyperspace from? (Wes, I already know your answer to this lol ^_- )

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Thinking deeper, I know a lot of people use the The Macross/Robotech definition of hyperspace travel as:

hyperspace travel also involves the notion of space folding. Hyperspace folding involves a large hyperspace bubble around the vessel travelling through hyperspace. Everything within this bubble is transported along with the vessel itself to its destination

How I am not sure than if more people see this kind of hyperspace as:
A. Separate Universe-like dimension that acts as a go between

Generally speaking, the idea of hyperspace relies on the existence of a separate and adjacent dimension. When activated, the hyper drive shunts the starship into this other dimension, where it can cover vast distances in an amount of time greatly reduced from the time it would take in "normal" space. Once it reaches the point in hyperspace that corresponds to its destination in real space, it re-emerges.

B. Simply a dimension that you fold like a sheet of paper

A different concept, sometimes also referred to as "hyperspace" and similarly used to explain FTL travel in fiction, is that the manifold of ordinary three-dimensional space is curved in four or more "higher" spacial dimensions (a "hyperspace" in the geometric sense; see hyper surface, tesseract, Flatland). This curvature causes certain widely separated points in three-dimensional space to nonetheless be "adjacent" to each other four-dimensionally. Creating an aperture in 4D space (a wormhole) between these locations can allow instantaneous transit between the two locations; a common comparison is that of a folded piece of paper, where a hole punched through two folded sections is more direct than a line drawn between them on the sheet. This idea probably arose out of certain popular descriptions of General Relativity and/or Riemannian manifolds, and may be the original form from which later concepts of hyperspace arose.

Which you see as hyperspace? What do you guys suggest? What do you think I should include?

 

[Doshii Jun]

Leave it undefined is my vote. Scrap all of the above, essentially.

Defining things beyond "it's a plot device" leads people to expound upon it, tweak with it, manipulate it and ultimately confuse it.

It's a plot device. I'd focus the engineering guide on things players actually can use.

 

[phacon]

Leave it undefined is my vote. Scrap all of the above, essentially.

Defining things beyond "it's a plot device" leads people to expound upon it, tweak with it, manipulate it and ultimately confuse it.

It's a plot device. I'd focus the engineering guide on things players actually can use.

:lol: Yeah I that is a good point Doshii. Still I am slightly worried that someone their uses the concept of "Babylon 5" jump drives or Star Wars "hyperdrives", so I am going to what at least 12 hours before moving on to my other questions.

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Note, I be tackling wormholes next and mainly the how to summarize this:
Warning the following link is intend only for people really really into science that they have a basic understanding of atoms, energy levels, and calculus. If you never heard of calculus, it may give you a headache. I am not kidding.
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...DItN2E4NS00NTYzLWEwNzAtMGRiYjliOTdkMDkx&hl=en
In hopefully 5 sentences or less and not statistics or quantum mechanics

 

[Doshii Jun]

I ... don't understand. You're worried people will use different kinds of devices to access hyperspace? Or they'll take from other science fiction works to formulate their own hyperspace device?

 

[MissingNo]

I agree with Doshii's first post. The hyperspace drive and wormholes get characters and objects from Point A to Point B and adding details to that will lead to people seeking loopholes and arguing over minutiae when someone tries to tweak how it's presented.

 

[phacon]

I ... don't understand. You're worried people will use different kinds of devices to access hyperspace? Or they'll take from other science fiction works to formulate their own hyperspace device?

No... I was worried people already had or used different kinds of devices to access hyperspace that took from atypical sci-fi works. (basically same thing except in past tense ^_^; ) I guess my noobness was showing with that last question <_<;

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Wormhole Questions
Anyways I was going to have you all look at:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B7yO5J696j4PMzU5NGMwZDItN2E4NS00NTYzLWEwNzAtMGRiYjliOTdkMDkx&hl=en

However Frost worked with me on it last night to summarize that .pdf. So to decreaI rather let you guys look at the summary I came up with so far for Wormholes:

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:basic_engineering_manual#wormholes

=== Wormholes ===
(insert picture of wormholes here similar to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worm3.jpg )
Wormholes are one of the slowest Fold methods and are not good in combat situations. With their slow speed, your opponent could just as easily use hyperdrive to pass you then attack you when you exi the wormhole as they could fire anti-wormhole FTL missles. Wormholes are however, one of the most realistic methods because unlike other fold theories wormholes only need 4D space. Some scientists believe that one would require negative energy density, like of exotic matter or quantum foam, to bend space-time and stabilize a wormhole. Of course, vacuum energy, the field of infinite negative energy, is a prediction that comes from combining the Special Relativity of 4-D Minkowski Space with Quantum Mechanics. For SARP, this “infinite negative energy” turns the same exact energy found in zero-point energy (2-D), quantum foam (Minkowski space), and aether (hyperspace). Thus, one has several interpretations and methods of how to create wormholes and what the wormholes are used for. This being said there is a consensus in SARP on how wormholes are used that can be seen in the link below.

In SARP Wormholes are primarily used by the Freespacers and Hidden Sun clan. A long time ago Neplesia use a gate network of wormholes; however, they were destroyed in the early in the YE 31-32 war between Neplesia and NMX.

http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3069622
With regards to wormholes, we approach the problem from the other direction. We say we want a spacetime which contains a traversable wormhole, and then ask what mass distribution is necessary for this requirement. It simply turns out that there must be a local negative energy density near the throat of the wormhole for the solution to exist and be stable.

Perhaps one way to think about it, although I wouldn't push this far at all, is that a wormhole throat has a natural tendency to collapse, and negative energy density provides an outward pressure to halt this collapse. Perhaps you can liken this to the effect Einstein's cosmological constant had on the universe as a whole.

Questions:
1. What do you guys think so far?

2. After talking to Frost he convinced me that a picture might be good, so I found a picture on wikipedia that might better explain wormholes. Does anyone know a good artist that wouldn't mind sketching this picture?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Worm3.jpg

3. Does anyone know how to "wikify quotes"? Yesterday I managed to finally get a answer about the physics of wormholes (specifically in regards to negative energy) on physicsforums.com. Since I feel it may give people a better understanding of where negative energy comes into play, I like to quote the person as their real name or anonymous researcher.


P.S. I also updated the wiki with what I put for hyperspace if you guys still have comments/suggestions

 

[MissingNo]

For clarification, what is negative energy? I'm guessing you don't mean the sum of energy in any given space being a negative value (which would create an energy vacuum, if it was possible at all)?

 

[phacon]

For clarification, what is negative energy? I'm guessing you don't mean the sum of energy in any given space being a negative value (which would create an energy vacuum, if it was possible at all)?

Hmm... you know Missing you brought up a good point that, I really need to think about before I can answer. It’s a good point because I feel like I may not be explaining complete what negative energy or vacuum energy

I will tell you that your right that negative energy is basically energy with the negative sign you would normally expect. So if a positive energy photon is measured to have energy E = + 3.00 eV then a negative energy photon would have energy E = - 3.00 eV.

However, I need to think about what exactly vacuum energy as an energy vacuum would mean. Missing I would love to talk to you about if you on IRC to help me figure out what I am not describing.

Also, I am not sure if it will help but....
.... One critical property of the vacuum energy is that, when you remove a particle from these fields of vacuum energy you are creating the particle's antiparticle. In fact a positron is the equivalent of having to remove an electron from the vacuum sea. This role vacuum energy plays in electron/positron annihilation and formation is what originally lead me to connect negative energy with aether, since aether was once used in the creation of antimatter.

 

[phacon]

Ok I got a lot of suggestions from Gallant and Missing.
I won't mention them except two of the big ones:
One of the suggestions they both mentioned was to remove everything about the concept of vacuum energy, which I be working on this weekend. The other idea was to make this part of the guide more piratical especially to the common person.

So to make it more practical I am planning to try to rewrite this weekend both sections so its more a comparison of advantages and disadvantages between the drives. I was going to use those to then make a sort of situation safety guide for engineers when dealing with fold system failure(s).

To make a fair comparison, I had some questions about the various fold drives that I need to find out. These are question I am probably need to figure out for myself; so, its ok if you guys don't have or don't know an answer right now.

== CDD Questions==
First, I was looking at Anti FTL Field Wikipage, and I noticed that, in a CDD has an easier time dealing with an interdiction situation than Hyperdrive. Reading the article, it seem to me this was done primarily in order help balance things in SARP. However, I was wondering is there an additional conceptual reason CDD was chosen over Hyperdrive?

Second, I was re-reading about CDD and re-looking at the old Engineering Tatics Manual. From those I got this feeling that CDD and shields either cannot be used at the same time or put strain one another. I was wonder if my assumption true that CDD reduces the effectiveness of ones shield?

Third, I know we are fading out a lot of the combat stuff about CDD, but I was wondering, is CDD still more stealthy than Hyperdrive?

Fourth, I know that wormholes would seem to be the fastest way to turn a ship even though they are slowest speed. Even though Hyperdrive normally goes in a straight line, I also know that you can use point-to-point FTL to "turn" its only very slow or shallow turns compared to other systems. Where does CDD fit in all this though? Compared to the other systems how fast can you turn with CDD?

== Other Questions ==
Finally, I was where at least game mechanics wise you guys saw drives like TTD fit into this big picture. Are there any disadvantages people have come up with for TTD's?

 

[phacon]

Ok so after the last few questions I have a new look for the Engineering Guide Page:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=continuum_distortion_drive

I did my best to start grouping things by advantages and disadvantages.

What do you guys think?

Also I would like to give my thanks to Fred and Andrei for pointing out that TTD was phased out of SARP 4 years ago and the Miharu uses a CDD not a TTD[/b]

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Also I am planning on working on the CDD section next, but I am not 100% sure what to do. Originally, I was think we could borrow some stuff from Star Trek's warp Drive OR explain what some of the more complex words mean like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peristalsis
Then I was think about pimping up maybe the CDD page with a picture of what a CDD bubble looks like. However, this brings me to a couple of questions I need feedback on:


First, do you guys have any suggestions of something I should include in the CDD section? Is their anything you don't want to see like Star Trek information or a quote with the help from Wes of a famous example of CDD's use?

Second what kind of picture do you associate with Continium Distortion Drive? Does Continium Distortion Drive look more like--A. A giant balloon like bubble, B.
A caterpillar like bubble, or C. Wave-like bubble?

Please provide your feedback soon ;3