Suggestion Remove Up/Down Voting in General

[Rizzo]

To start this conversation, I DO NOT like this idea as I believe it takes voices away from the community.. however I have a point to make regarding it and the simplest solution is to remove it.

Without getting into specifics, we have had multiple NTSE articles that have been downvoted by the community. This means the bulk of the community is not in favor of the article being submitted in its current iteration. At least twice now this has NOT stopped articles from being added to the canon.

Therefore, I state the argument plainly.
If community votes do not matter to NTSE why are we asking for them?

Seriously, why do we have this feature for community feedback if (@Wes I have to point you out) will approve articles regardless of feedback collected by way of the votes?

 

[Wes]

1. In the submissions forum, the rule of thumb is that submissions with negative votes don't get approved. There's only been one exception in recently memory, and it's the Apollo teleportation chamber, and I approved it because I felt that it was a good submission and had a sense that if I had posted it, the votes would be fine.

2. In the Ideas and Suggestions forum, votes are used as an indicator used in prioritization of improvements to the site. The ideas with the most votes are the ones that we should try to implement first, as feasible. The ones that have negative scores are ideas that people don't want and those get shelved.

The purpose of vote scores is to basically give a sense of how the communities feels to staff doing the approvals - but ultimately staff makes the call.

It's not a simple game where the most votes win. If the voting score was all that mattered, it would become a case of majority rule and people would be hounding each other for votes like it was an IRL election cycle, which wouldn't be fun at all.

 

[Soban]

I'm the author of one of those articles that was approved despite being down voted. I have no idea why my submission was down voted. I don't think anyone does. (If you do, please tell me). I think that they are helpful, but don't determine the fate of an article. By default, if there aren't any problems with an article, then it should be approved. A lot of people might not like say the 'Killdozer 9000' but if it fits within the setting and rules, then it should be approved. However, there are often enough articles that do something weird or expand the setting in a way that people find controversial. They are often difficult to predict in advance. In these cases, getting a good sense of how the community feels about it might be a good idea. Voting helps people who have an opinion, but don't actually have anything additional to say about it.

That said, I don't really find it to be useful personally. I found it frustrating that it seems people were down voting my article without telling me what was wrong. If someone doesn't have anything additional to say about it then they can say "I agree with concerns X, Y, and Z. I agree with the A, B, and C suggestions about how to fix it." (Constructive criticism people. Very few things are so broken they can't be fixed and even if I don't take your suggestion on how to fix it, the suggestion is still useful.)

And because I like quoting Starship Troopers here are some thoughts on constructive criticism.

"Impossible, of course. Except for one thing. What is theonly factor that can save you when the load is too heavy? Anyone?" Nobody answered.

"Oh, come now!" Colonel Nielssen said scornfully. "You aren’t recruits. Mr. Hassan!"

"Your leading sergeant, sir," the Assassin said slowly.

"Obviously. He’s probably older than you are, more drops under his belt, and he certainly knows his team better than you do. Since he isn’t carrying that dreadful, numbing load of top command, he may be thinking more clearly than you are. Ask his advice. You’ve got one circuit just for that. It won’t decrease his confidence in you; he’s used to being consulted. If you don’t, he’ll decide you are a fool, a cocksure know-it-all — and he’ll be right. But you don’t have to take his advice. Whether you use his ideas, or whether they spark some different plan — make your decision and snap out orders. The one thing — the only thing! — that can strike terror in the heart of a good platoon sergeant is to find that he’s working for a boss who can’t make up his mind. There never has been an outfit in which officers and men were more dependent on each other than they are in the M. I., and sergeants are the glue that holds us together. Never forget it."

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

We have had this topic before tho it did not pass. It wasn't really about the NTSE specifically tho so this one seems viable again~ Im still in favor of getting rid of the up/downvotes altogether unless it is in a controlled form like the suggestions forum only as my suggestion.

Im in three discords that already have upvote channels or the occasional @ everyone to ask for upvotes on a submission. And that system can be ultimately turned the other way if it was the choice of the cliques that still exist and are gone in name only. It could/would be used in my opinion to essentially continue the practice of shunning or soft-exiling someone by just making their existence harder which we have already seem in one form or another the past few years. And we should try to shift back to having more conversations on topics and less impassive stuff like voting and moving on.

We should continue as wes pointed out to have that the prerogative of the staff/NTSE reviewers and IMO just get rid of the up/down voting system altogether if not just for suggestions. This isn't facebook, its a writing community and we should be talking and not leaving reddit upvotes or angry face emojis instead of conversing and debating respectfuly.

 

[Rizzo]

I see what Wes is saying about Up/down votes being a good to measure of community sentiment and agree. The NTSE is not a democracy and shouldn’t be. I would very much prefer those with an opinion make it known why they do or don’t like a certain submission so members can fix issues or explain choices made.

Something that has really been a concern to me in the animosity between certain groups of members. Specifically, they’ll prejudge the motives of others who comment on their submissions (this isn’t one person all of you know who you are). It’s exhausting, really. The calls to bar certain people from commenting defeats the purpose of NTSE.

I’ll downvote this suggestion as I see now it’s not the problem. I’m now interested in how we can mend this divide and get back to having good SARP experiences rather than frustration, specifically with NTSE related events.

 

[Ametheliana]

I mean... I had a submission that had equal downvotes and upvotes and I had to deal with four pages over two days of people really browbeating me and making being on SARP the worst time. I persevered:

Can I get an award for getting the most shit flung at me and not letting it stick to me or what. I hope everyone that dogpiled to know that your arguments couldn't keep me or this submission down. Whatever you have against me or Yamatai being capable and pushing you all off of me only revitalizes my spirit to continue making RP that inspires technology and character heroics alike.

Which got... the angry reacts and sad reacts Charmaylarg is talking about, even from him.

It could/would be used in my opinion to essentially continue the practice of shunning or soft-exiling someone by just making their existence harder which we have already seem in one form or another the past few years.

This happens... to me. I'm not sure how it is hard to see that it's extremely difficult for me to exist on SARP because of the group of people that pretends I don't exist, pretends my RP doesn't exist, and makes my submissions harder to get through the NTSE. I'm sorry if you already see that this happens to me and have lessened up, but when FrostJaeger rallied the charge against me, a large group took up banners and was all too happy to beat me tf up. Even Ethereal did the same and I'm wondering if anyone but me sees how one guy with a following will single me out and make my life a living hell and how long that will be acceptable by a community?

It feels othering and it feels like I'm constantly fighting an uphill battle just to write RP and have it affect the setting. I feel like that's the opposite affect people that hate me would want to have. They'd best case want to make me feel fine and safe so I'm not constantly wondering who's going to come swinging at me next. It's been better since Frost was asked to leave for this, so I'm thankful for the reprieve, but does anyone see this pattern?

I sure as heck saw the pattern in my own actions to make people on the internet hate me and made a concerted effort to change. (I wouldn't be so sure, but I've had people on SARP say they can see the difference.) I wish that same self awareness on anyone saying there's a divide that does not realize they've exiled and othered different members.

Some examples of me trying: When Soban had problems with how I dealed with Feyani, I edited my post. He still said he wished he could block me after that and it felt like I was already painted a certain way, no matter how hard I tried to bridge that relationship. When the teleporter pad had problems, I addressed every one but Frost still messaged me afterwards and said he hated me for how I handled it and we would no longer be working together on story elements. Knowing Frost, trying to reach out to him in DMs was bound to explode, but I had given him several olive branches. Even with Charmaylarg, I sometimes think of ways to have him help me with something or if he wants to do one on one RP but remember he fucking hates me because of stuff I didn't even do (and have told him I didn't do, but it doesn't matter) and it makes me realize I've been othered by whatever guys think I suck and reminds me to stay in my own little corner and shut the up unless I want a bunch of those guys screaming about me to Wes. I told Alex recently he was wasting my energy when he wouldn't listen to me and suddenly it's the biggest issue since the price of peaches. It's like I can't use the same language others use because I'm constantly scrutinized and it's endlessly tiring. And I wish it would stop.

I'm not coming back to reply, this treatment hurts and sucks so I'm not going to belabor myself with explaining why it does if people don't want to accept that my time here is tougher than it should be because people use me as a punching bag. I hope everyone can just get along.

 

[raz]

In theory, it’s good that the votes don’t matter in the NTSE. As Wes said, staff ultimately decides and they can overrule the community barometer.

But in practice, I think history has proven that good articles downvoted sometimes get held back. And bad articles that get downvoted get approved. And good articles that get massively upvoted still have to endure the changes suggested by bad actors, while downvoted articles that need changes still get approved and the suggested changes ignored.

It’s honestly made me contribute fewer new submissions because I know that my submissions will exist at the whims of people who don’t produce the same quality nor know SARP as well as I do, while simultaneously what I say on articles that need improvement will be discarded as not “serious” or something.

Not up or downvoting the suggestion because the reality of seeing bad articles easily pass and good articles get held up or changed justifies my stance on certain things and memorializes them.

 

[Soban]

I’m now interested in how we can mend this divide and get back to having good SARP experiences rather than frustration, specifically with NTSE related events.

So I think we should take everything Ame said and everything I say here in a spirit of reconciliation rather than of division. Frankly, not talking about our problems hasn't worked.

When Soban had problems with how I dealed with Feyani, I edited my post. He still said he wished he could block me after that and it felt like I was already painted a certain way, no matter how hard I tried to bridge that relationship.

I want to bridge our relationship as well. I'm happy to forgive whatever and move forward with that stuff in the past remaining in the past if you are willing to do the same.

 

[Andrew]

I’m now interested in how we can mend this divide and get back to having good SARP experiences rather than frustration, specifically with NTSE related events.

In truth this is something that cannot be fixed per say, rather it can be improved. It comes down to people though. The community is diverse; we have people from all around the world with different views, different beliefs and traditions. We have people even from the same places that differ in how they think and work. Differences in how they believe the community should be run or managed too. There is always going to be some level of difference between people, its not something you can really manage beyond what the rules already include. It comes down to people being productive with their difference of opinion, keeping things productive rather than destructive.

So it comes down to keeping a positive mindset on a personal level. You cannot wave a magic wand and make people all have the same opinion. So how we fix it is self reflection, self responsibility, a positive attitude and accountability, and continued moderation and adherence to the rules and guidelines.

 

[demibear]

This

 

[Miko]

So I can vote yet it can be disregarded if NTSE decides to go one way or another. I feel like this is only going to undermine the entire process.

Case in point, has anyone voted on this? I see a zero at the moment so we are either up and down voting to make it zero or no one has voted. If that latter I feel Rizzo has a pretty good case to remove it.

 

[Wes]

Yes, this topic has got multiple upvotes and downvotes.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

Is there a plugin that instead of a static system it can show X upvotes, Y downvotes?

*This submission has 4 upvotes and 11 downvotes, kind of deal.

'Cause the current one is not reliable in that it doesn't show if something is supported at all due to it just erasing any measure of upvotes by volume of an abusable metric. I can create something and submit it and maybe 4 people might upvote it, but if five people downvote it then all you will see is the -1 and assume it has no support for the submission or suggestion. I think if we can find a better one that shows both it would work for both suggestions, submissions, and in general.

 

[Wes]

I'm not sure, but I would much prefer that.