Rejected Submission [Rules Update] Military Buildup Limitations Update

could there be some sort of IC exception that can be granted like, "USO says corps can make big bois if they will help protect the planet" sorta thing? like a citizen arrest on the next level

Rizzo said:

Okay, @FrostJaeger, I legit thought I had imagined a post from you. I've had a drink!
So if our concern is a corporate takeover of the government, shouldn't that be handled ICly by the government. You know, like law enforcement?

Also, not all governments can protect their corporations. The USO specifically has a certain Mish problem and the faction is, to my great displeasure, composed of groups that cannot seem to cooperate in an efficient manner. In this way I'd have to say that rules like this will cause more complication. Shouldn't our rules serve to remove complications?

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What does that have to do with you being allowed to field capital ships?

A corporate takeover should indeed be handled ICly by a government, @Rizzo - but it's hard to do that when the corporations ICly have just as much military strength as the government. Regarding USO's Mishhuvirthyar problem and lack of cohesion, in my opinion, that is something that should be settled via RP instead of relying upon OOC rules as a crutch - and this has no effect on the USO military, thus it doesn't complicate anything at all.

What would be complicated, however - and I mean no offense by this, @club24 >.< - is exceptions to OOC rules being handed out to factions based upon IC events, thus that's something I'm not interested in adding to this submission.

Ok so just implement it into the rules, "corps cant have big bois unless asked for for an express purpose by the overlord of the dominion"

I don't take offence easily so none taken im just interested in the discussion side of these things, looking at this like IRL i feel this sort of compromise wouldn't be that difficult since governments already get help from outside entities. But I'm no expert, just thought it made sense to have that as an action that realistically could be taken in certain situations like emergency president powers

I think that the concern is that such a rule could be very easily abused by anyone with a large amount of corporations. "Well I said they could, so there"

Fair enough, another question I'd like to pose on this topic actually, can a corp build a capitol ship for a government? Which means they don't use it but in cases like origin can build them if asked?

I already have an interesting design/production relationship with my corp and its allies being currently iis for a lot of large scale production and large object production and while i probably wont ever be building capitol ships for anyone its better to have a definite answer.

As far as I know, @club24, a corporation can indeed construct a capital ship for a faction.

then it seems we have an obvious solution, if the government of USO wants a capitol ship they ask one of the corps to built it for them, stays in the rules and keeps the desert safe

That's all well and good, so long as the ship built for the faction is counted under the faction's ship limits. Buying them from someone doesn't mean that they don't take up MBL capacity.

I assumed that would be a common practice, if i build a car and sell it its no longer mine and its not in my garage space

FrostJaeger said:

A corporate takeover should indeed be handled ICly by a government, @Rizzo - but it's hard to do that when the corporations ICly have just as much military strength as the government. Regarding USO's Mishhuvirthyar problem and lack of cohesion, in my opinion, that is something that should be settled via RP instead of relying upon OOC rules as a crutch - and this has no effect on the USO military, thus it doesn't complicate anything at all.

What would be complicated, however - and I mean no offense by this, @club24 >.< - is exceptions to OOC rules being handed out to factions based upon IC events, thus that's something I'm not interested in adding to this submission.

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Right. No effect on the USO military... but a heavy handed effect on every single corporation on the site AND a potential violation of Faction Rights.
Managed Factions on Star Army have certain rights, which can be exercised by their Faction Manager and his/her designated assistants:

1. Factions have a right to their own destiny.
   1. An active faction cannot be destroyed or conquered without its manager's consent.
   2. Diplomatic, military, and other important events should be discussed in advance.
      1. This permission should be obtained in plot planning threads and/or the GM Workshop forum.

What if an FM, for the sake of his story, wants a local corporation to take over. I can think of some amazing story potential with numerous warnings about the dangers of money, greed, and ambition. Why should this be removed from the options a storyteller has? It's not like I could raise a Navy and defeat the USO without Zack's permission anyways. This rules should be left for FMs to make. Let's not limit players on their choice of stories. Nothing good can come of this and seeing as there are no existing examples of a Corp doing as you say I'm starting to get the slight impression that the rule is just a little bit completely unnecessary.

Asking corporations to follow rules similar to the ones factions follow when it comes to ship counts isn't heavy-handed, @Rizzo, nor does it affect every corporation on the site; to the best of my knowledge, only four corporations (your Frontier Service Corporation, Kai's Origin Industries, Legix's Nepleslian Arms and Munitions, and Nashoba's Tamahagane Corporation) maintain private military fleets - and of those four, you are the only one with complaints. The Frontier Service Corporation is also the only corporation whose fleet would need to be downsized should these rules be approved, thus I'm beginning to get the impression that you're opposing this rule for personal reasons instead of professional ones.

The Faction Rights have no bearing whatsoever on this discussion - as they do not apply to other rules - and if an FM wants a local corporation to take over, there are other ways to do it besides brute force (which wouldn't work anyways, as real life handily demonstrates; the chances of Microsoft overthrowing the United States government with PMCs, for example, are extremely remote), thus there is nothing being removed from a storyteller's repertoire. This rule does not limit players on their choice of stories - all it does is reduce powergaming and prevent players from having their story at the expense of other players; lastly, this rule should not be left for FMs to make, as I believe that some would use it to circumvent the current Military Buildup Limitations by giving their faction's corporations the ability to field an infinite number of warships and capital ships.

Edit: I've made the following changes to the submission:

• I converted the corporate limitations into a table in order to decrease the number of mathematical calculations required.
• Corporations can now field a single capital ship for every star system their home faction controls.
• Following the feedback Arbitrated provided here, I've added in Nepleslia and Zen Armaments as additional examples for the faction and corporation limitation sections.

I think it would make more sense to say:

• For every planet a corporation has a major presence on (e.g a factory) it can also make a shipyard
• For every shipyard, the corp can maintain 100 ships for itself, which can be used for transportation or security
• Multiple shipyards are OK, but don't count extra for the purposes of the OOC rules (still 100 ships per planet, for simplicity's sake).
• Corporations shouldn't generally make warships bigger than a cruiser for their own use (cargo ships can be bigger though)
• Generally the only corporations making starships should be corporations that specializes in making starships (e.g. there's no excuse for clothing companies to be making starships)

What do you think?

Solid rules. You won't need more than like, 10 frigates to defend a given transport. Unless if you're purposefully running your face through every pirate sector in existence. In that case, your routing sucks, go find a better route.

@Wes I like that rule, it's easier for me to understand.

I know this is a strange time to jump into this thread (I've missed most of it) but I've been toying with the idea of trade leagues and unions. I was thinking how collectively corporations don't have a formal "voice" that lets them protect their interests on the political stage (quite rightly as they're background elements). If you're talking about regulating the corporations so they don't have overthrowing powery-things over a government, having those sort of structures keeping them in check could be an idea? Having an overthrown government does no good to an economy, which in turns hits all corporations, so I can imagine a nuclear standoff like thing where nobody wants to do it because of consequences. That might take the form of a capital ship ban or whatever but gives an IC reason? But it's late and I might be entirely in my own head here so just take it as a conceptual thing.

Wes said:

1. For every planet a corporation has a major presence on (e.g a factory) it can also make a shipyard
2. For every shipyard, the corp can maintain 100 ships for itself, which can be used for transportation or security
3. Multiple shipyards are OK, but don't count extra for the purposes of the OOC rules (still 100 ships per planet, for simplicity's sake).
4. Corporations shouldn't generally make warships bigger than a cruiser for their own use (cargo ships can be bigger though)
5. Generally the only corporations making starships should be corporations that specializes in making starships (e.g. there's no excuse for clothing companies to be making starships)

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(I add numbers to the list in order to make it easier to respond to.)

1. I'd prefer that systems be used instead of planets - as it wouldn't be terribly difficult for someone to make, say, a twenty-planet system and exploit it to their advantage.
2. Sounds good to me.
3. May I suggest that corporations can support a maximum of, say, three shipyards per system? It's so that unscrupulous factions can't "outsource" the production of their smaller military ships to a corporation with fifty (or more!) shipyards bunched up in a single system.
4. Sounds good to me.
5. Sounds good to me.

All in all, I'm in favor of implementing these instead of the more...restrictive rules I created, however, I have a question: how would Huge Space Stations and System Defense Platforms be handled under these new rules?

Big stations wouldn't be addressed (unless they're also the shipyard) and they can make as many as they want as long as they're fairly immobile stations not like, Death Star style superforts that are just dreadnaughts with radial symmetry.

Okay, time to make a station with a big gun on it and drag it into position with gravitons.

Wes said:

Big stations wouldn't be addressed (unless they're also the shipyard) and they can make as many as they want as long as they're fairly immobile stations not like, Death Star style superforts that are just dreadnaughts with radial symmetry.

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What about stations with thousands of shipyards?