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Standardization (Armor Materials against weaponary)

OsakanOne

Retired Member
I thought I'd put this into a seperate post to avoid confusion.

I noticed the problem with the Zerulium in an earlier thread and I thought it'd be a good idea to produce some sort of system whereby you can define the limits and usages of materials available in the in-game universe.

The hope of this is to avoid problems and let players work with existing materials and implementations rather than have to invent new materials and should help players balance stuff out.

I'll have time after next week to take a shot at putting some basic tables together and implementing this sort of thing if you like it.

Here's a template. Some parts aren't finished but feel free to add sections and tinker with it as you please. I'll be gone for a week so it'll be really nice to see what you guys want out of this. I hope those of you more knowledgable with physics and such know a better way of implementing this so players can return and say "I want to use that material for this part" and produce an overall value for a part. If this does well, it could be used in a different manner for technology and deciding how to cost prototypes and the like sensibly.

Or it's over-complicating things but better to share the idea with you than let it just bubble in my head pointlessly.


----------------------------------------------------
Basic Information
----------------------------------------------------
Name: (Full chemical name) [Production/Slang term]

Constituants: (chemical chain OR "Classified")
Sources: This material is commonly found/uncommonly found at some sort of place.
Extraction/Refinement: This material is extracted via whatever techniques.
Value: The value of this material is high/low because of whatever reason.
Civilian Applications: A list format with comments after each general term. Example: Electronics [unique electrical properties], insulation [affordable/effective thermal properties]
Military Applications: See above for example. List a minimum of two practical examples (armor for SHIP) and hotlink any names used to their respective pages at a later date if possible.

----------------------------------------------------
Statistics:
----------------------------------------------------
Physical Strength(PSI): (The maximum PSI the material can widthstand at an agreed size at room temperature at an agreed density and production method)
Weight (1G): [x]kg & [y]lb (at an agreed size cubed at an agreed density)
Estimated Mass (Chemical mass or estimated if unable to produce a real number)
Melting Point : x*C, y*F
Evaporating Point : x*C, y*F

----------------------------------------------------
Comparison Table
----------------------------------------------------
Slow Stress: Poor (Crushing for example. Organic materials do well here, being able to slowly adapt.)
Fast Stress: Effective (A punch or physical impact for example. Synthetics do poorly here.)
Safe Area: 70% (the amount of a surface on any plate which can safely sustain a fast stress. Say, a materical can stand a punch from a power-armor but not from another ship.)
Safe Scale: (An example where physical stress would shatter or crack the material. For example, an impact from a ship smashing into a Power Armor would probably batter the armor but leave the ship unscaved)


----------------------------------------------------
Weapon Table [Defence]
----------------------------------------------------
<Weapon>
Small: Unaffected
Medium: Good
Large: Decent
Overall: Good

The process would be repeated with each weapon class (aether, plasma, heat, etc).
 
*grins* you are waging a losing battle here. There isn't so much detail in the SARP and probably won't ever be, especially for your comprehension since GMs are really the ones to decide in the end how the materials interact and the said material 'mental picture' only act as a guide to the whim of that Game Master.

Stat and comparison systems have been suggested before... but I don't think the prior suggestion ever came to be as masochistic descriptions as what you propose.

One good place to look at is here: https://stararmy.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2733

I'm warning you: go further than this and you might get burned (or someone could go for the jugular). I understand your point of view, understand that some things in the setting are hard to grasp... but banging this issue on the head will probably not be very fruitful.

Asking smaller tidbits on a need to know basis in the 'question' forum will probably yield better results overtime. What you suggest simply cannot be implemented overnight or in any short order.
 
Since Osaka is leaving for the week, I'm watching the thread in his absence and putting myself in charge of handling things.

I suppose I should come up with an example to see how this would be used...this is something I actually want to submit, but it'll do for now.

It's incomplete, mind you, but it'll do. >.>

----------------------------------------------------
Basic Information
----------------------------------------------------
Name: "Laminate" (chemical name unknown) When applied to a surface, the name becomes an adjective; i.e. "Laminated armor"

Constituants: Classified
Sources: Laminate is artificially created, but the materials that make it up are common (though unspecified).
Extraction/Refinement: The creation of laminate is closely guarded; no one knows the process.
Value: An initial layer of laminate is extremely cost-prohibitive, but it has a long life and subsequent layers are much cheaper.
Civilian Applications: No practical civilian applications.
Military Applications: Laminate is an armor layer, but it has no effect against ballistic and impact weapons (railguns and the like): they simply pass right through harmlessly (having no affect on the laminate's effectiveness).

----------------------------------------------------
Statistics:
----------------------------------------------------
Physical Strength(PSI): Under construction
Weight (1G): 4mg per 1cm cubed (gelatinous state)
Melting Point : N/A (always in a gelatinous state)
Evaporating Point : several billion degrees celsius (but will break down far before that point)

----------------------------------------------------
Comparison Table
----------------------------------------------------
Slow Stress: High
Fast Stress: Low
Safe Area: N/A (ballistic impact will pass through, but the material properties are unaffected)
Safe Scale: N/A (see above)


----------------------------------------------------
Weapon Table [defense]
----------------------------------------------------
Plasma
Small: Decent
Medium: Very good
Large: Uaffected
Overall: Good
 
You really didn't listen to what Kotori said did you?

This system will not work - we don't like our values set in concrete, and we don't know them.
 
This system will not work - we don't like our values set in concrete, and we don't know them.
Why are things explained atomically within the additions section? If you're going to argue, be coherent and I'll believe "we" when I hear these words from an administrator.

you are waging a losing battle here.
What are you implying?

There isn't so much detail in the SARP and probably won't ever be...
Oh, there's lots of detail. It's wonderful. People go to death with their descriptions and go to the point of saying how large things are and what systems they use and it makes me feel glad to know people give a crap about what they bring into this universe.

especially for your comprehension
Are you offended by something I've said?

masochistic descriptions
Why is it masocistic? There are.. Maybe 50 materials tops.
Given the nessesary information, I could produce a table within a week and a half. Less with help. This isn't about a table to refer to while roleplaying so much as it's for checking against and picking materials other players are using. The Romans didn't have titanium, if you catch my drift.

I'm warning you: go further than this...
A threat?

I'm not here to ruin things. Far from it.
It's a great universe and I think it deserves to be documented properly.
It doesn't deserve to fall apart at the seams. Plot-ships don't seem to be doing so well and I don't want to see this place fall apart.

So I'm defiant. The fact I give a damn is more important.

I understand your point of view, understand that some things in the setting are hard to grasp.
Hard to grasp? It's quite easy to understand it all but it's a real nusance to go through the forums and find individual posts. I found it very easy to go through the tables on ships and armors and I quite liked that.

I know this won't happen overnight. Given the information in PM with some folks, I think this would be healthy for designers and deliberating new designs.

You're acting like a spoilt child, Kotari.
 
Spoiled child, no. However, what's the harm in trying, Fred?

Just keep in mind that you might be unsuccessful, which is what Kotori/Fred is trying to imply. Remember, we're not engineers or physicsts here. We don't have tables like this right now because, as far as I know, we've never needed them.

Tech is kept vague not just for GMs, but for players too.
 
Tech is kept vague not just for GMs, but for players too.

I didn't like comming here and not knowing for a week what Aether was.

I'm not going to do stuff to death but I think standardization is important.

I was offended when I saw Zakalwe's Mantes. He'd gone to death on the armor, and weapons, over-powering it by far and even you could tell that.
The armor I could settle with, considering it wasn't that thick.

This was how my last RP died. Players were constantly asking "What's this?" and we'd have to sit down and explain it to them or direct them to our scarsley touched website.

Eventually, we got requests to update but I didn't have time at the time to do it and we lost a lot of players and the plot tumbled because one of our key GMs left and players weren't getting enough of the RP to think it was worth staying around for.
 
You're trying to clear things up and simplify them in the same process - I can totally emphasize: I've tried that before. Tom's tried that before. Heck, a whole lot of people before me have tried that and there are some other forum members here whom have been with the site for a damned long time. Each new influx of newbies brings about the same debate... and frankly, I think I can relate to the older forum members simply not being impressed since the scenario keeps being repeated and the newcomers end up practically shouted down.

Basically, Osakan, to this forum, you're a new me. You're doing many of the things I tried doing and that people whom preceded me tried doing as well. I'm saying this ~this~ way so you won't butt your head on this particular wall, focus on a more effective method of gathering information (the question forum) where it'll gradually add up sufficiently enough for someone to be brave enough to build a guide/bible/whatever eventually.

So, well, the warnings are really me doing you a favor. It's that, or you bull on and get swatted repeatedly on the backside of the head for just being another case of 'the annoying newbie' ~_^. You'll also hear the catchphrase "if it's not broken, then don't fix it" often enough for you to start wanting to tear your hairs at the root.
 
Ah, I thought you were making threats and stirring up drama, Kotari.

Perhaps I would do better to devote my energy in asking for a new sticky somewhere that says what's been done and what doesn't work so this doesn't happen with the newbies next time. :3
 
Save the drama for when you're roleplaying, guys. ^_^

Osakan, I believe we started frowning upon tables because, while they're generally very helpful and informative, us GMs don't want to be enslaved by them.

We're worried that our players might get majorly pissed off at us because we ignored some figure in a table somewhere, even though 1. the table did not factor in some crucial variables that was present in the scenario OR 2. it was an honest misreading on our part and the decision couldn't be taken back OR 3. the table was put up a day ago and we didn't even see it yet. :p

Let's examine an example where tables break down: Suppose PC Joe went up against NPC Bob. Joe's armed with a knife while Bob's unarmed. Table says Joe will probably win, right? Okay, what if Joe is just a regular tough guy but Bob is a Green Beret? Um, we'll have to modify the table, maybe add some columns... What if Bob's wearing body armor? Another table to look up... What if Joe suddenly tells Bob that he's holding his daughter hostage? More tables? Emotional distress modifier? Do we really need a 400+ pages rule book to have a good time? >_<

Tables and charts and numbers make us predictable. GMs don't want to be predictable. Roleplaying is (or at least should be) about confronting the unknown, or at least a situation where you don't know all the factors. The best roleplaying systems are the ones light on numbers. (I'm saying the best, not the most popular. :p)

We want (or at least I want) to reward those who can quickly assess situations, balance perceived risks against potential gains, see the patterns that I weave, and ultimately think fast on their feet, not those best at number-crunching, not those who can look up charts the fastest, and certainly not those who memorized the charts. :3

Don't get me wrong. I'm a CS major. I like and am comfortable with numbers. But I recognize their limitations, and since I'm playing with other organic people here, not some computer program, I have come to peace with the fact that there is a small but varying amount of chaos here. It's that chaos that makes SARP infinitely more rewarding than any video game.

You get what I'm saying, Osakan? Then embrace the chaos. ^_^
 
OsakanOne said:
This was how my last RP died. Players were constantly asking "What's this?" and we'd have to sit down and explain it to them or direct them to our scarsley touched website.

I have an answer for your riddle. The correct answer should be "it depends. The fastest way to find out is to start RPing." :3
 
Might I advise that, if you don't like the numbers so incredibly much, you stop putting insanly large ones and then ignoring them? A prime example here would be the AM railgun of the Sakura, which fire 2 ton round of AM. This will yield, in ideal conditions, 43.06 gigatons of energy (1.8E20 J if you prefer it in that format), nearly 1/14,000 the energy needed to just barely overload a square meter of a scouts shielding, yet this is classed as a antistarship weapon, and is used as such in the RP. This same weapon has also been repeatedly described as able to destroy a planet:

If the Sakura's positron railguns are supposed to be able to do to a planet what my kid brother does to a bowl of Frosted Flakes... why would anti-matter guided rockets be no good?
/\above quote from Kotori btw

though it has no where near the mass to do so, seeing as it would require 2.29E13 kg of AM to cause a planet to just barely overcome its gravitational attraction, which is nearly 19 million times the entire mass of a fully loaded Sakura gunship.

So, while I personaly would love a list such as this, the effort would not really matter since numbers are for the most part window dressings here.

,
Vesper
 
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