Rejected Submission Star Ship Weapons Container

[Zack]

Submission Type: Starship Weapons Container
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:laserweaponcontainerye38

Faction: Wazu
FM Approved Yet? Yes
Faction requires art? Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? No

Contains New art? Yes
Previously Submitted? Yes, as part of: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:c5

Notes: Why six lasers? Well that's exactly how many reasonably fit inside the container with 1 meter diameter lenses which are the correct size in the art for a huge cargo container. Even put Wazu in there for scale. Why SDR1? Because SDR2 seems a bit overkill for six weapons. even though that is probably about the right DR for the size considering the size of weapons on fighters.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I thought initially that this broke the DR system with its potential ... but now I'm not really sure.

If I read the DR system correctly, any starship with SDR-grade shields above Threshold 1 repel the output of these weapons. They simply aren't powerful enough to penetrate beyond the shield's threshold, no matter how many dozen you fire at once.

That makes sense with canon starship combat, where starships (including starfighters) have weapons with different SDRs for handling corresponding threats.

So while this might be an effective starfighter killer, or be good at wasting more lightly armored vessels, against uprated starships they don't do much. Shielded vessels less so, and military vessels even less than that. DR doesn't work to the advantage of these weapons.

I want to make sure you understand that before I approve this, because otherwise the system's pretty straightforward.

 

[Zack]

My understanding of the DR system is that anything above the shield threshold gets applied directly to the ship's hull.

For example: An SDR 5 weapon, fired against a 30SP shield with a threshold of 3 would deal its first three points of damage to the shield, and then the remaining 2 directly against the hull.

This gives your shield officer something to do, as they can adjust the shield threshold by shifting one point from forward to rear or vice versa as necessary to keep anything form getting through the shield.

It also means that SP 5 weapons are really good, because they can start applying damage directly to a ship. Weapons like the ASC can also insta-kill a ship if its shield threshold is below 5.

That just means that this weapon container is always going to have to shoot all the way through a target's shields before it can start dealing damage to a ship directly.

Or, directly from the article:

For example:
Imagine for a moment that we have a power-armor (ADR) with a shield threshold of 3. Firing a weapon with an ADR of 5 at that shield would mean 60% of the attack is over the threshold of what the shield can defend from, meaning the remaining 2ADR would still strike the power-armor but the other 3ADR that were beneath the threshold would not.

In this way, very powerful weapons are still going to damage the unit, since they can protect against so much at any given time.

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In terms of weapons for its size, the V6 has pound about as much firepower as this container at a fraction of the size AND contains propulsion and other equipment.


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And in terms of styling, stacked lasers is a classic in laser-weapon-design.

View attachment 5694

And for those who want to hit the target, but can't quite build a better targeting system.
View attachment 5695

 

[Aendri]

You're missing the point he was trying to make. Each weapon's impact is counted against the Threshhold separately. A shield system with a threshold of 2 would take no damage whatsoever from a dozen SDR2 hits, but it would take damage from a single SDR3 hit.

 

[Zack]

As stated in the DR rules, a shield system with threshold of SP2 would take 2 damage from an SP2 weapon.

A shield system with threshold of SP2 would take 2 damage from an SP3 weapon. Then whatever is behind that shield would take 1 SP worth of damage.

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A clear counter example would be that if we did it your proposed way, battleships would be entirely immune to all weapons with their SP5 threshold shields.

 

[Wes]

What's your take on this, @Fred?

 

[Aendri]

Bad phrasing on my part. I meant that the ship behind the shield will take absolutely nothing, and at SDR1, they're going to take a while to get through any decent shielding. I suspect that's what Doshii was trying to check, that you meant this to be a very lightweight weapon.

Also, what's the rate of fire? I don't see it listed anywhere.

 

[Doshii Jun]

The most strict reading of the Damage Rating — a reading I'm applying here, unless I'm convinced otherwise — states the following:

For example, a light hull's shields will entirely block a very light damage or light damage weapon, but stronger weapons will only be mitigated and the excess attack power would hit the ship's hull.

To me, combined with the wording of how thresholds work, I read that to mean this:

To begin to overcome the shields of a target, you must use a weapon equal to or more powerful than that threshold. SDR1 weapons, even piled on at once, are naturally defeated by shields of a higher threshold.

In that sense, Aendri's ultimate reading is right, while yours is wrong.

And since I'm the tech moderator, my reading goes.

Thus, I repeat: Is this how you want your weapons to work?

 

[Zack]

Bad phrasing on my part. I meant that the ship behind the shield will take absolutely nothing, and at SDR1, they're going to take a while to get through any decent shielding. I suspect that's what Doshii was trying to check, that you meant this to be a very lightweight weapon.

I think we are agreeing here that an SDR1 weapon fired against a shield with a threshold of 3 (for example) means no damage to the ship and 1 damage to the ship's shield.

These are meant to be a barrage feeling weapon with all that this implies (higher volume of fire, lower armor penetration), so to confirm I agree with Aendri, that these weapons will take a while to get through shields, and that I am ok with that.



Under your reading, I would wonder why ships have a shield SP value? As the rules state

a light hull's shields will entirely block a very light damage or light damage weapon, but stronger weapons will only be mitigated and the excess attack power would hit the ship's hull

This would mean that there is no situation where shields would ever take damage, as excess damage over the threshold would apply to the ship's hull and the rest would be mitigated. It would also mean that ships of SP 50 would be entirely invulnerable to damage.

 

[Aendri]

I believe that under Doshii's reading, damage over the Threshold is applied to the shield until it runs out, then it applies to the hull.

 

[Zack]

Maybe we're talking past each other here on this one?

It is just 6 SP 1 weapons, they don't pierce shields, they can't be treated as 1 SP6 weapon, and I am ok with that.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Let me make absolutely clear what I'm talking about, for your benefit and mine. Confusion won't serve anyone.

Shields have SP because they can be depleted. So can hulls.

What you count as a total, combined number, I count as two separate numbers. You have hull SP and shield SP. They do not equal a solid number, but two forms of defensive "health", because let's face it, that's what we've made SP — vehicle health.

In the example given in the DR article, the PA takes damage to its ADR (threshold 3) shields (assumed SP of 10) because they are breached by the ADR5 weapon hitting them. The shields absorb the hit of 3 because that is damage that meets the threshold and must be stopped. The shields drop to 7 SP. The hull takes ADR2, losing 2 ADR SP.

If the situation involved an ADR1 weapon, the shield threshold would not be met, i.e. the shields aren't hit with enough of a powerful weapon to be damaged. They remain at 10 SP. The hull also takes no damage.

In regards to your submission:

What you've got here is something that fires dozens of weapons that cannot harm a starship with a SDR shield threshold >1. The SP of the shield, honestly, is not what concerns me. It's that your container is good for killing ADR-rated craft and precious little above that.

I want to make sure you're OK with that. Apologies if I've talked past you here, but I want to be certain my point is clear.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Checking for update.

 

[Zack]

Doshii, how does a battleship with a shield threshold of 5 take damage?

 

[Doshii Jun]

With the biggest weapons available.

 

[Zack]

Threshold 5 would provide immunity to nearly every weapon in the setting, and a 6/4 split would provide total immunity to everything on the frontal arc making battleships effectively immune to any damage. Ships with a threshold value as low as 3 could set their shields to 'total immunity: front' and make a 1v1 fight a stalemate.

It is even explicitly stated that threshold is

the amount of damage a shield can endure before bleed through begins to occur.

and backed up even further by

The amount of punishment a shielding system can cope with is usually equal to its base Structural Point value

The example of shield usage is even explicitly for bleed through, there is no mention of damage negation outright.

The only thing that supports your interpretation is the line

For example, a light hull's shields will entirely block a very light damage or light damage weapon, but stronger weapons will only be mitigated and the excess attack power would hit the ship's hull.

However, I think this is clearly established as a mechanic for bleed through, not total negation.

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Ultimately, I don't see why this should hold up the submission. It meets all the submission requirements and this conversation is a discussion for the setting discussion, not for item approval.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Ok, have it your way.

Submission rejected.

 

[Zack]

What was the grounds for rejecting this submission?

 

[Doshii Jun]

I gave you the way forward. You refused.

Thread locked.

 

[Wes]

Zack asked me to post this note on the DR system, so here it is:

The way it works is that anything below the threshold is damage applied to the shields, and anything above is damage applied to the shielded ship/object (minus the damage the shields absorbed).

E.G. SDR 5 weapon used on Threshold 3 shields does 3 points of damage to the shields and 2 points to the armor.