Status of the Basic Laws Act and Legal Status of Taxation in the Empire

[demibear]

I am splitting off discussion about taxation from this thread and dedicating this one to that subject. The Basic Laws Act mentions this, serving as a quasi-constitution for the Grand Star Empire. Within it one of the clauses is a statement of no taxation of imperial citizens. But after the adoption of the Yamataian Constitution (that lacks the no taxation clause), taxes do appear to be a thing now. Looking through the forum, it has been mention that there is taxation now. Here Wes mentions the YSE does have taxes, just not always in the form we consider taxes. In another thread regarding an act in the Senate that seems to have gone nowhere it is mentioned again. So this seems like something that needs to be resolved.

To add a real life example for comparison to this discussion, you have the US' first Articles of Confederation and then the US Constitution that was adopted later when having strong States with opinions was not going to work. Much from the Articles was incorporated, tweaked/expanded, and included in the process of creating the Constitution. When it was formally adopted, the prior Articles of Confederation ceased to be in effect legally.

The Basic Laws Act > Yamataian Constituion follows a similar path. Since both documents serve the same function, what is the status of the effect the Basic Laws have on the YSE?

 

[raz]

This is what Wes says about taxes in the cited thread:

Yamatai has weird taxes, as it sometimes collects in stuff instead of money from companies. So if you're a business that makes blankets, and the Star Army needs blankets, instead of asking for tax money it's going to ask for X number of blankets (up to 10% of how many blankets you're making).

Which is consistent with what the Basic Laws Act says:

5. The government has the right to confiscate any finished products from Corporations under its protection and supply.

It additionally says:

7. The government will never take the money of its people through taxation.

None of this has changed over the years. People don’t get taxed individually in Yamatai. Companies that produce things may get their equipment tithed by the government because the government provides/distributes raw materials (also detailed in the Basic Laws Act).

Any player who has paid attention to canon over the years has played it like this. No reason to retcon or change it.

 

[Wes]

I look at taxes from a pragmatic standpoint where OOC, I am okay with taxes but only if we can ignore them or automate them because the last thing I want to do is make work for people or force Star Army members to do math homework. I also view this topic mainly as a "background explanation of how Yamatai works as an institution" not "this is something I expect people to care about and implement in RP." In the situation where we chose to introduce personal taxes in Yamatai, I was thinking if we made LACY and Star Army paychecks non-taxable that would eliminate most issues even if there was some note about taxes happening in the background. I think that essentially Yamatai doesn't tax people (at least not regular people with regular income) but rather exclusively taxing corporations and for-profit businesses, sometimes in money but sometimes in product orders (e.g. You're a paper plant and the Star Army claims 2% of your toilet paper you make for the government).

 

[demibear]

Any player who has paid attention to canon over the years has played it like this. No reason to retcon or change it.

You know it is really hard to try to talk about something in good faith because you see a problem and want to resolve it when you low key say "Gosh bro, maybe if you had a few more IQ points you would know." at the end. You use the term retcon a lot lately and I would love to know what is your definition of it. Because I think that help resolve a lot of tension if that was clearly known. Is it limited to only Yamatai or the setting as a whole?

I look at taxes from a pragmatic standpoint where OOC, I am okay with taxes but only if we can ignore them or automate them because the last thing I want to do is make work for people or force Star Army members to do math homework. I also view this topic mainly as a "background explanation of how Yamatai works as an institution" not "this is something I expect people to care about and implement in RP." In the situation where we chose to introduce personal taxes in Yamatai, I was thinking if we made LACY and Star Army paychecks non-taxable that would eliminate most issues even if there was some note about taxes happening in the background. I think that essentially Yamatai doesn't tax people (at least not regular people with regular income) but rather exclusively taxing corporations and for-profit businesses, sometimes in money but sometimes in product orders (e.g. You're a paper plant and the Star Army claims 2% of your toilet paper you make for the government).

Back to the topic,with that settled, I think it will be a good idea to backlink the Basic Laws Act into the constitution article as being still in power since that was the other point of my question (the legal status of it). If it is still valid then something like "anything that has not been explicitly altered in this document from X document is still valid" would clearly link the two together. As you say, most people don't care about the background noise of a setting and will fill in what they know in real life if there isn't if it isn't obvious on the wiki.

 

[Wes]

Essentially, all the early YSE laws were complied in a single law document after the Unified Law Act of YE 27, which basically said: We need to put all this stuff from the various passed proposals together in one place. This document was first an HTML page on the original Star Army site and it survives in form of this wiki page:

Laws of the Yamatai Star Empire on Star Army Space Roleplay

wiki.stararmy.com

For whatever reason, any law on taxes didn't seem to make it into the unified law.

The constitution deals with: The Empire's founding principles, the structure of the government, and the rights of the people, but isn't a list of criminal laws like the unified law is. If a law and the constitution counter each other, in theory the constitution wins and the law should be changed. I unfortunately didn't make a mechanism to change the constitution when needed.

 

[Soban]

One note I think is important for Yamatai is that it is in many ways an extension of the Ketsurui Clan. While this is being disentangled a bit as the empire develops, I think it's very true. Most nations that don't have big taxes do have some sort of nationalized part of the economy. (Sometimes with competition, sometimes without.) I don't know if the following is true, but this make a certain amount of sense to me. Basically, while not legally nationalized, there are certain corporations and such that are effectively (but not legally) nationalized as the Ketsurui make large (but legally voluntary) donations that keep the government running. If this is true, then I'll note that the Volontany family does this as well. As a result, the people who pay in do have a bit of say on how the goverment works and have the inside track on what the goverment will or won't do. I think the downside is that it could be viewed as being corrupt. IDK, it's an intresting thought.

 

[raz]

You know it is really hard to try to talk about something in good faith because you see a problem and want to resolve it when you low key say "Gosh bro, maybe if you had a few more IQ points you would know." at the end. You use the term retcon a lot lately and I would love to know what is your definition of it. Because I think that help resolve a lot of tension if that was clearly known. Is it limited to only Yamatai or the setting as a whole?

I’m just saying that this topic has been played consistently by knowledgeable players. Trying to codify more changes that consistency. It has nothing to do with intelligence or anything so I don’t know where you’re taking insult here.

To answer the second question, “retcon” means “retroactive continuity,” and it’s when changes are made to the facts of a fictional story in a way that contradict or disregard what was previously established. That happens a lot when people ignore Star Army’s principle of adding setting elements as time passes; we’re generally not supposed to fill in things and say they existed for decades.

This, for example:

If this is true, then I'll note that the Volontany family does this as well.

is a retcon. The idea that the Volomtany family is significant to the Star Empire has never been a thing, and never roleplayed. So to say otherwise is a retcon that changes how the rest of us understand the setting in an artificial and unacceptable way.

Hope that answers your question, Demibear.

 

[demibear]

Yup

 

[Soban]

The idea that the Volomtany family is significant to the Star Empire has never been a thing, and never roleplayed.

I'd say I know pretty well how Volontany family has been and should be portrayed. TLDR; they are important to the Star Empire and I've tried to roleplay that in pretty much every post I've made with them.

 

[Ametheliana]

I noted to Wes and he agreed that taxing companies over player characters has worked for Yamatai in the past and present.

1) if it's not broke, don't fix it
2) why are we adding something that has added very little interest or intrigue IRL to a fun-based space opera? Never met a person that has fun talking, thinking about, or doing taxes
3) even if this is something working in the background, it still shouldn't apply to PC

 

[Wes]

I don't believe that adding personal income taxes was suggested, Ame; it looks like Demibear was simply seeking more information.

 

[raz]

I don't believe that adding personal income taxes was suggested, Ame; it looks like Demibear was simply seeking more information.

This thread was started/broken off from the census discussion because that wip article erroneously stated the census, in part, existed for "Determining the tax obligations of individuals and households based on land ownership, occupation, and wealth." There seemed to have been an idea that the Basic Laws Act was too old to be relevant and that individuals could be taxed.

So taxing citizens was kind of the core of this thread's question and it makes sense why some players, GMs, and FMs may have been concerned to have the idea pushed that Yamatai should change in this regard.

That's really cool that you've remained consistent with what the wiki and your previous statements have communicated, though.

 

[Wes]

Sorry, I hadn't had time to check out the latest in the census thread yet but I hope to do that soon.

 

[Ametheliana]

Sorry, I hadn't had time to check out the latest in the census thread yet but I hope to do that soon.

It was just something I noticed on the wiki page itself! No prob though! I double checked that the thread didn't specify when posting, but the inherent place the question stemmed from is what got me thinking. Maybe Soban just copy pasta'd something diff about taxes and the individual taxation is not even that bigga deal to people. It is something I'd like to avoid though, so I wanted to say something!