Three minor issues, three possible fixes. Would they work?

[OsakanOne]

During my time in SARP-Land, I've learned that a few things big people. From the channel, from the forums, from players and GMs alike.

Here, I've dumped three problems I've noted and three solutions.

My question is this: Could they be implemented (if desirable) without any retconning?


Issue 1: FTL missiles. Stupidly effective: Unfair. Room for abuse here.
How?
Missile launches, achieves FTL velocity, strikes target. If misses, decelerates and strikes for TOP SCORE. Supposedly never misses. Makes beams and physical weapons redundant, making half of the SARP's weapons "obsolete". Ugh. Not good.

Fix:
Make it hard for them to decelerate and to avoid using them at melee (well, starship melee) ranges, give them a distance to achieve their terminal speed so they can be "seen" and recognized during the acceleration phase.

Issue 2: Tiny systems: Big offense, big defense. No formal declaration of kinetic resistance.
So in english? Something has DR-LOLBIGNUMBER but it's (as stated by Wes) probably fragile because it's so damn small and thin. Not because IT is fragile: It provides less direct defense to a wearer or user. Like say, a Mindy: Wes has said in the past a clean high velocity round to the neck of any Yamatai armor pilot is lethal, regardless of DR.
This is where agility SHOULD come into play.


Fix:
Under cockpit or crew count, "Kinetic Resistance" should be noted if necessary.
What does this mean???
If the unit crashes hard, will the pilot feel it?
Will it tumble them about or even transfer the impact into them? Could it kill them?
This formally creates room for anti-powered-armor weapons and means GMs can create more challenging scenarios for their PA wielding players where there's a sense of real risk. It also means a glorified skinsuit of awesome isn't the be-all and end-all of combat. There's room for variety and flavor.



Issue 3: There's nothing to put off people micronizing everything and "messing up warfare": SARP technology is almost at a singularity. Some people think it's ridiculous. I ...Have to agree.

What's a micronized system?
Anything that's ultra-portable. An aether device skin-thin or a skin-tight exo suit or a pistol with the power of a cannon or a micro computer the size of a pencil-case with the processing power exceeding today's most powerful equipment.
Some things are getting stupidly tiny now.

Fix: (Wes liked this - So did Doc)
We don't tone it down: We do something smarter:
We create a disadvantage so there are good and bad reasons for micronized systems.

Micro-systems are more fragile and hard to repair without dedicated systems and substantially more expensive for the every day man unless he can produce it with his own machine-shop.

Say something micronized gets hit: Like a micro-aetheric device. It's more likely to break than one three times it's size the size of a beer-can and it'll be harder to fix so it'd be cheaper just to replace the damn thing, right?

We give bigger more rugged kit a bonus: While it's heavier (and therefor less agile) it can cope with more hits and it's easier to repair in the field, almost like a tank or toyota: there's a defenete advantage to something BEING bigger, despite only doing similar amounts of damage and having a lower overall DR: It can take repeated battering and keep plodding along without systems catastrophically failing.

Of course, agility is the big pro to micronization: You have the ability to go places bigger units can't and you're a smaller nippier target. Harder to hit but more delicate.

Again, this encourages variety and means we can field more interesting units to fight players: Maybe in a "baddie of the week" flavor for those of you into that kind of thing, huh?

 

[Zack]

Issue 1: Solution? Be more creative with your ship designs. I know at least 3 of the Nep GMs are trained with how to deal with FTL missiles and should be able to counter them in RP easily enough.

Issue 2: RP better. Be more descriptive with your attacks. Nep dosen't have this problem because attacks are fairly well detailed and GMs do take this kind of stuff into account.

Issue 3: RP better. Be more descriptive with your ships and whatnot. There is already a big gap between the effectiveness of starships and power armors due to the scale they operate on. Check out the training sim RPs on the NSS Alliance as the Neps don't have this problem.

 

[zephyrite]

I personally agree with Osakan. It would make things easier for the vast majority of players. It's certainly great that the Neps have awesome counters to those things, but for the rest of us, it would simply be easier to deal with for those changes to come into effect.

 

[OsakanOne]

Edited the overall post to better articulate my points.

Issue 1: Solution? Be more creative with your ship designs. I know at least 3 of the Nep GMs are trained with how to deal with FTL missiles and should be able to counter them in RP easily enough.[/b]

I know at least 3 of the Nep GMs are trained with how to deal with FTL missiles

trained
trained

Trained?
We're supposed to be roleplayers, not armies at war with each-other.
We had a long debate on IRC: You were the only one who disagreed with us on this one.

Issue 2: RP better. Be more descriptive with your attacks. Nep dosen't have this problem because attacks are fairly well detailed and GMs do take this kind of stuff into account.

Uh... Are you alright?
This isn't even AIMED at starship combat, boy. Read the post.

Issue 3: RP better. Be more descriptive with your ships and whatnot. There is already a big gap between the effectiveness of starships and power armors due to the scale they operate on. Check out the training sim RPs on the NSS Alliance as the Neps don't have this problem.

RP better

I'm sorry but some people aren't veterans.
I run a plot ship - with a ship - and I have never tasted ship to ship combat. Your post regarding the training strikes me as masturbation: "We don't have that problem".

I'm sorry Uso but you're a minority.
I'm thinking of the bigger picture here and this is a problem for everyone.

Ship to ship combat frankly bores me: It's missiles and beams and people stood around in a room waiting to live or die.
I think fielding units is more interesting and it means players get to be a part of the action rather than sit and watch captains make commands. They get to work in a group. They get to feel useful.
Some people like being bridge crew and I understand that but I think there needs to be a shift towards fun for a change.

I won't take my ship into combat - because to be frank - I am terrified of losing it. I would go mad if some Mishhu popped up out of nowhere and wiped me out with weapons I can't even evade or counter.

It's why the Maras will probably be a carrier and not a battleship.

We're not all you, Uso.
And me being me, I want variety.

 

[Zack]

Trained, as in we did training JPs involving various starships which illustrated just what our C1s, DD4s, and Harys could do. There are tons of ways to neutralize FTL missiles and if you can't figure it out quite frankly your ship deserves to get blasted apart by them by people with more talent/creativity/whatever who've looked at the technology in the setting and worked out how to beat what. Its not that they have better tech, they are using the tech thats already avalible to everyone.

As for Issue two, I was referring to power armor.

And seriously, Nep dosen't have this problem because its GMs put in effort into figuring things out instead of complaining about them. If you have a problem you can figure it out in RP instead of the OOC.

 

[OsakanOne]

I'm sorry to hear that, Uso.

Your response was amazingly quick. This really bugs you, huh?

I came to the SARP to have fun. In many ways, I'm frustrated to my teeth by the SARP but it has a lot of character and I've fallen in love with it.

I feel that as a technical player, whatever I submit can only ever be "second best" (as many people feel) unless I go into an arms-race with someone (think you and Zakalwe last summer) which is not what I came here to do.

As a roleplayer, I'm too petrified to do anything: My ship is weak as hell and I'm having problems finding players because half of a good roleplay is to feel empowered. If players don't feel useful or empowered, they usually jump ship, which is why independent plots very rarely work out well (that and a lack of advertisement but I digress).

Understand something, Uso.


The SARP is not chess.
The SARP is not battleships.
It isn't some RTS or turn-based game.
It's not some field of competition:
It is not a game to be won.

It is an experience to participate.
A game to play.

Here's another thing:

I did not come here to think.
I did not come here to stress.
I came here to relax:
I came here to play.

I hope you understand.

 

[Zack]

So rather than RP you are trying to empower your ship through OOC rules?

That dosen't seem like good RP to me.

 

[OsakanOne]

Lovely: Twisting the words. That's just dirty.

No, Uso. I'm giving my personal example.
I'm not thinking of myself alone when I name these changes.

I want variety to flourish.

I want to empower the independents and give everyone who isn't on the bleeding edge at least some semblance they're capable of something in this universe we've created while at the same time setting the status of the military away from what civilians are capable of, so civvies won't end up with military kit when they want a plotship with nice toys.

 

[Zack]

Variety isn't going to be helped by these rules. Each is targeted at dumbing things down which in turn promotes everyone doing the same thing.

Having problems to solve in RP is what helps generate variety in RP because people can solve things in different ways. Describing your actions more also promotes greater variety because the deeper a player goes into things the more diverse they can be.

Punishing players for being creative by dumbing things down, essentally putting their effort to waste, isn't good RP.

 

[zephyrite]

Uso, it takes a balance of the two to make truely good RP.

 

[Zack]

Yes, I'm aware of that Zephyrite.

But these aren't rules aimed at fixing something that is broke. They are essentally aimed at empowering Osakan's ship by nerfing certain weapons and dumbing down combat. That just isn't a good basis for rules and would not help with game balance.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

I am going to throw in my two cents right now.

Problem 1: I think that, yes missiles probably should have an acceleration speed, however looking at the Nekovalkyrja as a reference, it has no time until max speed using it's gravity manipulation. All in all, I would like to see a more reasonable torpedo, but since this really isn't directly affecting me, I am not concerned.

Problem 2 and 3: I agree with your point on smaller systems, that makes sense. However, it should be noted the DR of a clean high velocity round to the neck(as indicated) IS important. Usually, Power Armor's are more armored(by either more advanced armor types or layering of armors) around the head and neck(the DAISY and MINDY both note that they have DR 6 armor around the neck). As for agility, well...I disagree. I don't care how agile you are, there is no time to see a bullet coming(you can attempt to predict it, but actually seeing it? No).

---

Other_________

Could some of this be solved by better roleplaying? Of course, but there are people who like technicalities. They like absolutes, if I perform action A to object B the result will be C. I like absolutes, yes roleplaying could make these things occur without absolutes. How much easier is it going to be for a new GM to look at something and say: this will occur. Versus needing to look through old log files, ask around for a while hoping to find the right people, only to get a singular event of the situation, in which the current circumstances may be different?

I understand both of your points of views here, yes better RP would solve some of it. Yes, some clearly defined things would be usefull, however, those things may bog things down.

As for dumbing things down, I think that the proposed rules make things too complicated. Now they have to determine somethings DR based on it's size, and not only that, there are the additional rules regarding pilots being knocked around. I also think that these rules remove some of the powers of the GM. When I GM pen and paper, I will break rules so that I can have the drama or the outcomes that I desire. If these rules come into effect, I think that they should be optional. But GM's should be clear if they will or won't use them at the start. Consistancy is key, a player should not have to guess how much damage a weapon will do or how much armor something will provide.

 

[OsakanOne]

When I came to the SARP, I learned how to make stuff. How the technology worked. All that lovely stuff.

If you read it, it actually makes things more complex by introducing new variables to worry about. Even so, we could just have this as a note rather than a number, just to say something is or isn't possible: The whole "Hi-Spec armor aren't invincible against lesser machines" thing came as a shock to me and it came without any warning, even though I've played in such machines with Wes as my GM.

The idea is we take some dynamics that are previously "silent rules" or "unspoken rules" and just insert a paragraph somewhere informing a pilot of a risk and informing a GM of a possibility which they can execute under their digression.

Uso, stop trying to dick with this thread before anyone of importance gets to read it. I don't want to stir up drama but you're so defensive. Infact. You claimed you "loved watching Osa boil " to quote your words in the channel. That's just trolling, Uso. I thought you were above that.

I don't want drama. I really don't. That's why I ask you not respond to this message and we end this fued.

It's not that I'm mad at you - I'm disappointed in you.
I was hoping to see humility in you, someone who's as seasoned a player as yourself. My opinion is that you're a machine. You play like you have to win. Like you have to have the last word.

To quote Andrew: You are not immune, Uso.

I'm not in the mood for this crap. This drama you're trying to stir up.
Forget it, Uso.

Sorry if I'm unusually cranky: It's a bit late and Uso's been ebbing at me in the channel.
I'm off to bed.

When I read this thread in the morning, I look forward to seeing what someone who's got experience in this stuff has to say and I'll take it with a grain of salt: But please be sure to read it all and understand the consequences of these changes.

If you disagree with these ideas, please provide an example so I can understand your point of view, okay? Don't hold back!

I really appreciate it.

Wes, Andrew, Fred, Doc, Exhack, everyone.
I hope to hear from you in the morning.

Good evening: I bid you fare well.

I'm sorry if I've upset anybody.

 

[Zack]

I agree completely with the bit about consistency.

But I would like to add, I don't think the agility is for dodging bullets but rather so that the user can move around with greater ease.

As for an acceleration rating, that wouldn't be to bad of an idea. Certain space RPs don't even list a top speed for their spaceships but rather rate things in maximum achievable acceleration over time. I can see that being more useful than a top speed rating for a lot of ships and STL systems.

 

[DocTomoe]

I'm just going to stop by this thread for a quick chime in.

1: Hyperspace torpedoes are not able to turn, they are stuck on a straight line path to their target due to the constraints of hyperspace travel, thus they must drop out from hyperspace before adjusting course.

Other torpedo and missile systems are quite a bit slower in comparison to the hyperspace torpedo, thus they should not be a concern.

2: DR is a pain in the ass at moments like that, this has been made apparent time and time again by issues of scale, application, and science.

3: Bigger is better, ja.

 

[Silverthorne]

1. FTL torpedoes would need to accelerate unless launched from a ship running FTL. The fix here would be a catapult launcher that increases their speed at the time of launch. However it still would have to increase speed to go faster than light.

3. Micronization even in this day and age is the bane of repair techs. Smaller parts are easier to break and harder to fix. Go down to the local computer place and price parts. Then look at a fully loaded computer. The parts cost more than the system. If you get all the parts separately. Replacing a single capacitor on a system board is currently unheard of, just replace the entire video card.

2. This is a touchy subject. How can someone dodge a beam of energy, or a bullet. Only if they know its coming. A single shot to the neck is either an extremely good shot who knows how to do it, or a lucky SOB that just happened to get a round in the right place. Either way I do not see someone just sitting still if the luck SOB is firing wildly at him. He would cover up his weak areas or take cover. RP can be used to help in this manner. But that guy who is a mile out with a good weapon taking his time to aim and putting a single bullet thought that vulnerable neck area, guess you are SOL.

 

[MoonMan]

Well, in regards to Nepleslia:

1.) FTL torpedoes are not a problem if they can be stopped...which they can. You have a point that they are a powerful weapon, but its not that big an issue. Honestly, the whole torpedo deal was complex and ridiculous to comprehend in the first place, and trying to fix it just seems to over complicate it more.

Although, what your propose doesn't seem all that bad. I don't believe we use Torpedoes at close range anyway...you'd just get caught in your own blast and look like a moron.

Velocity...see, when we get into this stuff? That's when the normal Roleplayer stops caring.

2.) You are kind of over complicating this.

In Nepleslia, we don't judge by DR. The DR system is a guideline. If somebody gets shot, we make sure they know it, either by grazing the armor, partially ablating it or completely vaporizing it. It's a GM-chosen area, dealing damage to players...and I don't want to have to deal with the DR ratings of the Neck, Elbow, Left Shoulder, Right Earlobe, Right Nostril, Middle Finger, Fourth Toe, Scalp Hair #626, etc.

3.) Nepleslia actually doesn't micronize their powered armors near as much as Yamatai . That's why we have marines running around it bulky 7-11 foot powered armor.

Skin-tight body-armor is for pansies.

 

[Fred]

I appreciate the spirit of your thread, OsakanOne, and feel your pain about Zack.

1) In starship combat, I'm a strong advocate of STL missiles, or something which the defender will see coming. I'm not to warm on FTL ordonance, as I feel it makes starship combat more clinical.

I like starship combat - either in Star Trek Post-TNG (ST2-6 and Nemesis had cool spaceship battles too) or Babylon 5. Watching Whitestars rake a bigger Drahk ship with weapons fire is fun from where I sit, as was the Enterprise-E cycling over its weapon arcs to dish as much punishment as it could to the Scimitar... but that's just me.

Combat a la Starship operator is slower, but I feel it allows for it to be slower paced and allow for more player input. I'm a big believer in letting players on a bridge be able to make a difference in a fight - namely because I've never liked using power armors as fighterplanes and pit them against ships. Power armor/fighter combat is cool, but not when both are involved... it just ends up being chaotic.

I remember how some plotship scenarios I was player in ended up involving the plotship facing off against something interesting and the power armors being thrown a bone in the meantime. I want to avoid that.

Again, though, that's just me.

2) I tend to take the Battletech approach on armor. Essentially, if a mecha is hit by something I consider anti-mecha, I'll have the damage pile up. As far as I am concerned, giving a power armor to a character is giving him a bigger HP reserve, some bonus mobility and offensive power that I could not give them ordinarily.

3) That's why I like the Daisy. It's not perfect, but it's a larger and more rugged design to the overly finessy but powerful Mindy II.

 

[SUBLIMEinal]

I'm in agreement with the stuff Moonie and Uso have both said.

Uso may be being rather abrasive, but I believe he is right about a lot of this. One thing that I should point out is the reason we don't find ship-to-ship combat boring is because we don't do it in our plots. We understand pretty well that for a bunch of marines, a bunch of ships flying around shooting may read pretty cool, but it's a pretty damn boring JP. That's the reason all our missions so far have been primarily ground combat-oriented. Maybe other GMs can pull it off well, but I know that's the way Nep is, and the way I would like to keep it.

As for the other stuff:

1. The way I learned to fight with starships taught me to be a long way away, far enough that even FTL torpedoes take a bit to get there, enough to at least set up an Interdiction field and then PD the hell out of them. Like Moonie said, no big problem there for us.

2. Also agreement with Moonie and Uso. It's a GMs decision how much damage the nuke that just blew up in your durandium-covered face does to you, but with us its probably gonna screw you over a very fair amount, DR or no.

3. Nothing else to really say that hasn't been said, other than the fact that even today computer technology is cutting its size and heightening durability every day. Considering that a computer I have in my basement made in 1999 has twice the size yet less than 1/1000 the power of my dad's desktop PC made 8 years later, I don't think that the level of sophistication of computer systems is too hard to believe.

Also, at least in my opinion, actually regulating "This device will break if you move it too much." would be A. hard and B. pointless.

 

[Lex_Sandar]

I have to agree with SUBLIMEinal on the small size issue. The technology here is supposed to be thousands of years more advanced than our own, correct? Now, consider just how much computer technology has increased and shrunk in our life time. Your cellphone is a more powerful computer than the inventors of the technology likely truly conceived. A PSP far more powerful than that, and still pretty small and portable. Add a thousand or more years of development, and its very hard not seeing some significant improvements in miniturization.