Torture in the YSE

[Ethereal]

Before I begin, please do not think I am trying to snipe anyone by making this thread. In the time I've been on the site I've been in RP at least twice where this issue has come up.

Whatever happens, we can't have issues like this reflect on PCs retroactively. Unless it was some exceptionally amoral act with witnesses that would testify (which I haven't personally seen) or if you guys or @Wes thinks otherwise.

So, to the point. There is a large contradiction in the SAOY's rules and what actually happens in regard to this area. There are several top-level statements condemning such actions, consisting of the following:

The Constitution of the Yamatai Star Empire - "We stand against slavery, torture, and other malicious behavior and against violations of basic rights of sapient beings."

Senate of Yamatai Proposal #20 - Torture Act

Senate of Yamatai Proposal #25 - Prisoners of War

Star Army Regulations - Crime #2, Mistreating a POW

Articles of Military Justice - Article 46 (Mistreating a POW) and Article 78 (Torture)

It seems to me this is pretty clear cut, however it's known that SAINT likely breach these orders and the constitution for their goal.

What I'm asking is what is the standard point where torture becomes a good thing in Yamatai? I'd like to hear @Wes' opinion and anyone else who has an idea. Thanks.

 

[Ametheliana]

In my plot the XO, a medic, and two SAINT personnel were questioning a captive. Someone shot the captive, I asked for an edit, they then poured boiling water on them, so I asked for an edit, and then they injected them with saline. So I ended the questioning ICly and removed the player from the brig in my GM post.

For context.

 

[raz]

it's known that SAINT likely breach these orders and the constitution for their goal.

This is a meme that exists in large part due to ancient ERP by people who aren't around anymore. SAINT has no policy that allows for torture, and it follows all of the Star Army's regulations. Individual intel soldiers who are found to have committed crimes or breached the code of conduct are punished in accordance with the severity of their misconduct. In fact, due to strict compartmentalization and security measures that SAINT soldiers are subject to, most operatives and intel analysts are less likely than Uchuugun or Rikugun soldiers to get away with really heinous torture against the enemy's people.*

*Mishhu aren't people.

 

[META_mahn]

Apparently at the same time in your plot, @Ametheliana, there was a discussion between you and a player about how it should go down.

I was not informed of how it should have gone. So I defaulted to something straightforward, a...”recently acquired” trait of said character.

I interpreted the instructions given as “torture the captive” with one of the many chemicals readied.

 

[Ethereal]

Excellent to hear Ame, that scenario was partially what sparked my asking for clarification, as well as my browsing through laws in general regarding international waters as seen in a recent settings discussion.

I stress, however, that this is (or was, I suppose) to simply to reaffirm Yamatai's stance on this, since I've seen it crop up more than once - maybe three times now across different plots.

I emphasise the non-retroactive nature of any discussions that would have occured here, however I am delighted we all agree. I am glad to hear that things have been clarified on the Kaiyo as well ^^ seems it was just some simple miscommunication between plot members

I'm also very glad to hear that clarification from Raz, there are several misconceptions floating around the site and it seems the nature of SAINT's work is one of them. It's very reassuring that it's nothing but a meme : ) people like alternative ERP I suppose lol

 

[raz]

I'm also very glad to hear that clarification from Raz, there are several misconceptions floating around the site and it seems the nature of SAINT's work is one of them.

This clarification has been made constantly for years and will likely continue because everyone's headcanon for spies — before ever reading anything about real intelligence agencies, much less the make-believe SAINT — defaults to Hollywood depictions of the Gestapo, KGB, and CIA black sites during Iraq War II. It is a constant struggle.

Also, torture is dumb and redundant because the Star Army has SCIENCE! and stuff.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

Cant make an omelet without breaking a few eggs.

Somewhere out there i'm sure it happens. There will be a breaking point and a time constraint and someone is going to bend the rules to fit their needs, and will be well aware of the consequences for doing so...

That being said I always kind of pictured yamatai like Canada was in ww2. Killing them with kindness and treating them so well they want to cooperate. And if that fails they are big and strong enough that the big stick is a last resort of last resorts.

 

[Wes]

When Yamatai passes a law it enforces the law. Torturing people has been illegal in Yamatai for years and is even in the constitution. I don't see how they could make it more clear that it's not allowed for any Yamataian to torture people, including prisoners and POWs. SAINT is part of the Yamataian military and is held to the standards as everyone else in the Yamataian government, which is to respect the nations laws and uphold the Star Army's honor. Anyone who tortures is crossing the line and could be held accountable with serious consequences if it gets out.

 

[Rizzo]

Yeah, the SAoY wants to make sure no one's feelings get hurt. That's why they'll permit an enemy combatant to not spill information vital to thwarting an enemy factions plans to wipe out an allied fleet or murder Yamataian citizens. We here in the Yamataian Intelligence community do not even interrogate people but we have ways of making them talk. Instead of torture we take their mothers out to a nice steak dinner and ask them to make Johnny talk. It usually works but occasionally we have to threaten to not pay for Mommy's meal. Sometimes, and it breaks my heart every time, we threaten to never call them again.

In the most extreme case we've had an agent force them to listen to Kids Bop for a few days but the he later faced a firing squad for such a heinous act.

I've personally found that karaoke singing What's New Pussycat with a fake southern accents outside of their cell once or twice is usually enough to get them to like me enough to confide in me as a friend what their secret plans are.

I hope these suggestions can help! I need to get back to work getting Intel from this prisoner, I'm planning to read him The Catcher in the Rye cover to cover in one go so I'll be back in a couple of days.

 

[Doshii Jun]

This entirely brilliant, wonderful post, really

No more Catchy Cafe doughnuts?!

That's a war crime, sir.

A greater offense: Never going back to Doki Doki YSA.