What is the NH-30?

[mizunoyoroko]

I'd like to hear more about the NH-30, I'm a little unsure about the merging of the Yamataian and the Nekovalkyrja and I think it'd be interesting to see what is in store for the trademark species of the YSE.

 

[Cora]

What more can be added/removed to the Nekos to make them better/more balanced? Seriously. they're Suprahuman. That is GREAT!

 

[Revolver]

Chris, from what I've heard, the NH-30 is actually a significant nerfing of Neko so that they have no power when not "near a SAoY ship." (Clarification needed on near and ship.)

The only problem I really have, though, is the idea of the normal citizen. Some dude who was born, let's say a Geshrin (or maybe he was a human/elf before that), and had to transfer into a Yamataian body when they came around, and now has to change bodies again into whatever the Ningen no Heiki body type thirty is. I guess, the only way I can rationalize it in my old head is that in the sci-fi future, everyone's so used to be being a transhumanist that it doesn't really matter.

 

[Wes]

Well, we intend to replace the anti-gravity feature with a magnetic-based version. This would eliminate health hazards from Neko scalar emissions and would make the RP more exciting by making the flying ability more for ship usage but not usable in planetary ground scenarios (think: James Bond chase scenes would be boring if he could just fly around at 70mph instead of jumping across balconies and rooftops or zooming around hairpin turns in an Aston Martin).

The other big change is making the neko basically a Yamataian by default--but when in Star Army service, the NH-30 will get temporary special powers like SPINE interface, increased strength, etc, that will make it on par with the NH-29.

 

[Zack]

Perhaps the powers could be ship activated?

IE while onboard an SAoY ship, power can be transmitted to the body to allow the flight and hovering functions, SPINE interfaces can be grown, and the like. It could also double as a security feature as one has to remain near or on an SAoY ship to get the most out of the body as it will revert to a more basic state otherwise.

 

[Cora]

I though YSE ships were made from non-ferrous materials.

 

[Revolver]

Haha. Now, when Ringo gets the upgrade, she'll have an older, sexy body when she's all neko powered on a ship, but revert to a cute, younger form when no longer getting her Star Army super powers.






:V

 

[Fred]

Perhaps the powers could be ship activated?

IE while onboard an SAoY ship, power can be transmitted to the body to allow the flight and hovering functions, SPINE interfaces can be grown, and the like. It could also double as a security feature as one has to remain near or on an SAoY ship to get the most out of the body as it will revert to a more basic state otherwise.

That's one thing which was close to the basis of it.

Please leave it alone for now, while the article is being completed. It'll be submitted for perusal at the NTSE forum in a bit.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

Going off of your description wes, I'm going to raise almost identical concerns that I raised in the NH-29Y thread.

Yamatai as a nation, species, and culture
You have built Yamatai from the ground up, I respect that. The Yamataian has created a foil, as it were, to the Nekovalkyrja. While Nekovalkyrja are traditionally soldiers, Yamataians are not.

Consider this, the culture of the Nekovalkyrja is reflective of their existence as a species that is built for war, with few members of the species becoming civilians. Yamataians however are civilians by nature with few members serving in the military. The differences between the two cultures are extreme.

I feel that this 'duality' is something that strengthens and adds flavor and conflict to the nation that you have built. You are removing part of what, at least in my opinion, makes the setting awesome. Yes not everyone is a war machine, yes it's intended to be that way. Yes the starship isn't full of war machines. Yes the people who aren't war machines have to learn to live with war machines (we like to call them nekos, we also like to think they are people, this is another thing that you have informed us is incorrect. nekos are not people they are tools). Yes the war machines have to learn to live with the non-war machines. There is much to be gained there, but that is what makes all of them unique and interesting.

Here is what I see: Disregard to the two cultures, the 'upgrade pack' as it was explained to me in IRC is made mandatory (read: Species Restriction Act 2.0) and everyone becomes the same. Because it's important to you that the girls have cat ears they still will, but there will be no differences. There will be nothing that makes them interesting other than their special abilities and PC character histories.

As I explained in the post concerning the NH-29Y, the duality is important in this setting. At least in my opinion.

As expressed before, I don't think this is a change for the betterment of SARP.

edit: removed some unneccessary analogies. see teddo's and my next post

 

[Teddo]

(we like to call them nekos, we also like to think they are people, this is another thing that you have informed us is incorrect. nekos are not people they are tools)

Mine certainly is



Anyway, you have a very strong point, though you could have done without the middle fingering analogy. From what has been said about it, the NH-30 would merge the two races. ICly, they have been separate for almost 30 years. OOCly, they've been separate for around 10. The ramifications of merging the two would have drastic impacts on the dynamics of the entire Empire as we know it. Yoroko raises a good question. Perhaps this isn't where we want to go with the NH series.


(Also, wouldn't the model be the NH-31? Traditionally, they seem to correlate to the year of release rather than the actual model number.)

 

[mizunoyoroko]

You're right teddo, those analogies weren't necessary nor were they constructive. My apologies to all. They have been removed or reworded if necessary.

 

[Teddo]

You're right teddo, those analogies weren't necessary nor were they constructive. My apologies to all. They have been removed or reworded if necessary.

No biggie. You're obviously very passionate about the subject.

 

[Fred]

Teddo, you raise a good question, but there are two ways to tackle this issue.

The first is to say that the relationship between nekovalkyrja and geshrin/yamataian has been what it is for ~10 years, so it should remain that way. Conservatism.

The second is to acknowledge that within that time frame, things have happened. Things have progressed and evolved. The relationship between the two species has changed overtime. Think on it a little:

- The Nekovalkyrja and the geshrin were created. One was a civilian synthetic body, the other was a sentient humanoid weapon.

- The Nekovalkyrja were created in quantities so numerous that they eventually came to dwarf the geshrin population.

- The nekovalkyrja were granted the priviledge of rank, something very major in Yamatai's very military oriented society. They were allowed to form families. They were allowed to start leading the Empire. A nekovalkyrja became an empress and the trend carried on.

- Presently, most of the Empire runs on everything that is Ketsurui, with the Kessaku coming second place but being very loyal to the Ketsurui... and the others take more of a backseat like Geshrinari Yards, NovaCorp and other smaller companies. Essentially, Yamataian society depends on most of everything the Ketsurui provide.

- The Yamataian body was created: effectively a human-looking nekovalkyrja body for civilians which had anyone making the leap to it finally adopt neko-like digital minds. In effect, through that leap, everyone became a nekovalkyrja already. The move was a deliberate attempt, according to Wes, to eventually assimilate the human race in the nekovalkyrja race.

- There have been very visible efforts to ensure that the nekovalkyrja would end up dominating Yamatai. One is the effect of the 'elysian' plague which wiped out most whom were unwilling to adopt a biosynthetic body. Another was the Species Restriction Order a bit ago. Another was the hint of nekovalkyrja supremacist movements (Black Spiral) being humored in their ventures; not to mention that many major characters like Hanako, Yui and Irim are obvious neko-supremacists that are in influential, top positions.

I recall Yui raising an argument to Kotori about the movement to have people switch to Yamataian bodies in a mandatory fashion within the military show as a desire to have no weak links in her army, a weariness of trying to accept weaker links just because it was the 'humane' thing to do even so it was 'not as effective', and even a matronizing approach on the issue ("I feel like a mother whom must force my child to do something for his own good, even if the child will whine and raise a tantrum over it").

Now...

I can relate with the conservative desire to keep things the way they are... but my time on this site, the studying I've done of the site's in-character history and the chats I've had with Wes indicate that there is more than ample reasons by now for the 'Yamataian' culture as a whole to progress.

The distinction between the civilian nekovalkyrja and the military nekovalkyrja are bodies. You could say that the concept of NH-30 is streamlining that relationship; allowing a person a civilian body upon which, should the person join the military, be augmented to have the appropriate tools to serve his/her country on hand... while allowing the Empire to grant them all individual freedoms and retaining control of making sure their augmented soldiers don't end up serving in other nations. I could very well see a slogan for the NH-30 crop up saying "Live for peace, upgrade for war" and such.

Why NH-30? I see it as a nicer number than 31. Just personally preference... besides, the NH-number to year thing hasn't been universal in all neko types.

Anyhow, so, as I've pointed out above, there is a very large in-character precedent to bring this about. A status-quo was kept, amazingly enough, despite the way the nekovalkyrja has progressed to dominate most of the Empire. It appears to be the logical next step. It's a next step Wes seems to want to take and while I do relate with those whom feel conservative about the issue... I have to give this the benefit of the doubt. I can't just treat this as a bogeyman and must tell myself that "yes, perhaps it is time to move on and try advance this to provide a new situation".

Wes also, as the site's admin, has the right to tweak things around to bring about the playing experience he wishes to bring. Wes apparently feels that it is time for this to start coming about - and while many can decry that their own vision should be how the nekos are supposed to be, we can't really deny him that. Not even me, and some of you know how hard I was willing to argue for some of the NH-29's issues. Despite my own view of the nekovalkyrja, I just can't say that Wes' take doesn't make sense, so I've decided to roll with it and help him complete it.

I can't say I'm particularly pleased about Wes raising this issue before I was done. Now, with the concerns and whining I'm hearing, I feel a lot more pressured than I was the day before - especially seeing the Nashoba's own work tanked despite having very IC motives. I'd like to be given the opportunity, and perhaps trust, to do it right just as some feel I've done the NH-29 and then allow me to submit it.

It's a little discouraging to be stoned by critics even before I've even submitted the thing. Reading the above, you can't possibly keep on the argument that it's the wrong take on how things could go, just different from your preferred vision - the one you've grown comfortable with. I hope the above explanation I've given will at least help you understand why it'd make sense for such a thing to come about.

 

[mizunoyoroko]

-The Nekovalkyrja and the geshrin were created. One was a civilian synthetic body, the other was a sentient humanoid weapon.

- The Nekovalkyrja were created in quantities so numerous that they eventually came to dwarf the geshrin population.

- The nekovalkyrja were granted the priviledge of rank, something very major in Yamatai's very military oriented society. They were allowed to form families. They were allowed to start leading the Empire. A nekovalkyrja became an empress and the trend carried on.

Here however is where the distinction between the two cultures forms. As time progressed the Nekovalkyrja created an identity for themselves, and later the Yamataian created its own as well. As time progressed this identity was solidified. The Nekovalkyrja was designed for war, something it did quite well as the NH-17, and came to embrace its role as a species.

The Geshrin (we'll get to Yamataians later) now found itself with protectors. That in it of itself would allow Yamataian arts and culture to develop unparralalled to any other known species due to the simple fact that as a species the Geshrin didn't need to fight in wars and battles. Yes some did, but for the most part the species was civilian.

- The Yamataian body was created: effectively a human-looking nekovalkyrja body for civilians which had anyone making the leap to it finally adopt neko-like digital minds. In effect, through that leap, everyone became a nekovalkyrja already. The move was a deliberate attempt, according to Wes, to eventually assimilate the human race in the nekovalkyrja race.

While I agree that this happened, I disagree about the mentality of most Yamataians. First, as Wes indicated in the ""Are Yamataians NH-22C Nekovalkyrja" discussion most Yamataians probably weren't aware that they were transferring into a Neko body. It was marketed under a different name, and even then there is another factor that should be considered: the Geshrin plague. Transferring to another body really wasn't by choice in that time (I don't remember what body it was to, but it doesn't matter much), and when the truth of it came out I can only imagine what people thought.

Most people at the time thought body transfers were normal everyday things that weren't strange etc. However when you add in the fact that it was just revealed to them that their empire practically killed millions of them because the people didn't want to transfer to a different body during the plague, or because they couldn't transfer to a different body for financial reasons, or even those that didn't get transferred before they died. I'd imagine the sense of betrayal is huge. When you further consider who runs the empire now, I don't think many Yamataians consider themselves Nekos, simply because a great majority of them lived through that period of betrayal. They may remain loyal citizens to the empire, but I highly doubt that they want to associate themselves as Nekovalkyrja.

If anything, this further creates a tension between Yamataians and Nekovalkyrja. One coping mechanism is to blame members of the unaffected race for the problems of the victim race, and since PNUGen was the company of origin for the plague as well as nekovalkyrja I wouldn't be surprised if more than a few people blamed Nekos for it, or at the very least strongly dislike them because of it.

- There have been very visible efforts to ensure that the nekovalkyrja would end up dominating Yamatai. One is the effect of the 'elysian' plague which wiped out most whom were unwilling to adopt a biosynthetic body. Another was the Species Restriction Order a bit ago. Another was the hint of nekovalkyrja supremacist movements (Black Spiral) being humored in their ventures; not to mention that many major characters like Hanako, Yui and Irim are obvious neko-supremacists that are in influential, top positions.

Frankly, that in it of itself further supports my argument. The species restriction act was unpopular in Yamataian Society, what are the chances that this will be viewed in the same way if not worse? Perhaps this could even be branded the Yamataian Plague, as so far as I have heard it is a 'service pack' style update that makes everyone the same. The fact that Nekos, and more importantly many 'Neko-supremecists' hold almost all of the high-ranking positions only serves to further create a cultural divide between Nekovalkyrja and Yamataians.

Heck going off on the angle of the species restriction act alone being unpopular in Yamataian society, how much more unpopular would this be? Not only is it mandatory, but it affects civilians too.

The distinction between the civilian nekovalkyrja and the military nekovalkyrja are bodies. You could say that the concept of NH-30 is streamlining that relationship; allowing a person a civilian body upon which, should the person join the military, be augmented to have the appropriate tools to serve his/her country on hand... while allowing the Empire to grant them all individual freedoms and retaining control of making sure their augmented soldiers don't end up serving in other nations. I could very well see a slogan for the NH-30 crop up saying "Live for peace, upgrade for war" and such.

I'd actually disagree here (I know, it's not really surprising anymore). Yamataian culture however isn't the only one to have fully accepted its role. Nekovalkyrja are born and bred soldiers, very few of them live to be civilians but even of those that have I'd imagine fully embrace their existence. You were right to say that this is a body thing, it is. Quoting an article from the 5th XF somewhere, "We are Nekovalkyrja, and war is but honey to our lips." Nekovalkyrja have embraced who they are to their very core. This however destroys that. By being the sole defenders of Yamatai (again with few Yamataians and various other species joining the ranks) they became not only iconic for the civilian side but for their own. When a nekovalkyrja sees another nekovalkyrja there is an instant recognition there. They know that they have served (again barring the rare few that make it to be a civilian) to protect the YSE.

In modern terms, the difference between a Nekovalkyrja and Yamataian is like the difference between a white person and an African American (comparison made in america). The history of both cultures greatly influences both people, and though they understand eachother they also understand that they are not the other. African Americans take great pride in the struggles that they as an ethnic group have had to struggle against and eventually overcome. When one African American looks at another there is an inherint bond there, even if the two have never met before. Imagine what the outrage would then be if the US government developed some form of Gene therapy that made everyone a mixture of the two, and made it mandatory. There would be outrage, because people don't want to lose their cultural history. It is another thing that helps define who they are.

A Nekovalkyrja is a war machine. She accepts this and even embraces this when she goes out onto the battlefield to protect Yamatai. When she is with the Civilian population she understands that these are the people that she is to protect, sees the lives they live, perhaps even envies them that she herself cannot do so. But she is still a war machine, she is still Nekovalkyrja.

Likewise this would destroy the cultural history of the Nekovalkyrja and the Yamataian. From your own examples I don't see how this would be allowed to progress ICly without an extreme amount of moral outrage from both sides.

With this when she leaves a ship she is no longer nekovalkyrja, she is nothing. She becomes weak, needing protection herself. It is not a role that Nekovalkyrja are used to, perhaps a role they fear and maybe even secretly detest. The fact that there are neko-supremecists only supports that, they detest the shortcomings of Yamataians on the battlefield, while non-neko-supremecists accept the shortcoming as is and learn to compensate for it. After all, Yamataians are normally civilians, it takes a great deal of courage to join the service knowing that 70% of its members are better in nearly all aspects than yourself, yet they join for myriads of reasons. Some want to prove that they are not inferior, while others may simply want to contribute even if it is a small amount, and yet others merely wish to pay back the debt that they feel they owe the protectors of Yamatai.

Yamataians however have the opposite cultural history. Normally immersed in the arts or the every day culture of life without having to deal too much with the aspect of war. Perhaps they are a peace-loving people, as they themselves have no need to fight when there are Nekovalkyrja. With this change they are all now military weapons, capable of untold amounts of destruction. They are perhaps what some detest most, murderers, killers, etc. Yamataian society exists in harmony because Nekovalkyrja do the 'dirty work' and Yamataians as a species do not feel connected to what occurs by Nekovalkyrja hands. If they were all merged together however, how many would be able to handle the new change? Now they are no longer purely a peaceful race, but rather a race that is capable of war, something that Yamataians as a species haven't had to deal with in a very long time.

Frankly, your examples support my arguments more than they do your own.

 

[Fred]

Not really.

You're forgetting how the matter of the NH-29 changing for a NH-30 is really trivial. How it wouldn't really make a difference for the NH-29... except at the point where she would stop serving on a military ship for awhile?

Bang, the NH-30 goes on planet to study at the Kyoto War College for a couple of months. She loses her weapon-like traits and being acceptable in civilian society for her is quite possible. Then, she goes back to a new ship assignment and 'poof', she can reclaim her soldier-level abilities.

It's not like the Yamataians are going to be strong-armed into switching bodies. Would there be implications for those serving in the military? I can't say they wouldn't... but hey, there are already yamataians whom expressed the desire to become nekos themselves (Sumaru and Nashoba's Jalen Sune comes to mind), so it's obvious that some might just go and embrace the change... regardless of how you express that it would be inadequate.

Simply because your point of view is not an absolute. Mine isn't either, but then I never thought the idea would satisfy everyone. I did hope that the idea's IC repercussions would be dealt in an IC fashion, however.

Nekos can become civilians, or adopt less potent bodies. That's fact. Providing a body which in the future will not be prone to be required to be changed for a Yamataian body is in itself a worthwhile investment. Being able to also control the 'Valkyrja' status and make sure it does not endure beyond Yamatai's military is also a worthwhile investment. Nor is that feature the only traits the NH-30 will offer.

Nothing ICly stops Yui having her Ketsurui Zaibatsu release the NH-30 and have the NH-29 be able to swap for it. Why would nekos even need to transfer for a Yamataian body if the downgraded civilian mode of the NH-30 would offer the same advantage: being acceptable in society? Sure, some yamataians could become ICly worried that the 'nekos' don't even have to become like them to be able to be civilian, but this could just as well create an even wider rift in the species involved.

 

[Scot]

If you look at it this way, the short term idea would be this

Civilian < > Military
Yamatain < > Neko

The Nekos of now and earlier would most likely take the change, but at the same time never leave the military. They are warrior like race (well, formally soon) that would lose that feeling of greatness if they ever left any service that would require their unique abilities. To a Neko, they will feel like they have lost a part of themselves when they decide to become a civilian, rather than allowed to keep some measure of ability upon leaving service.

Paranoia may also be a factor, since the "Nano" tech may also be used on themselves for not just simply turning off powers, but disabling the body entirely. If a socialist ever took control of Yamatai, they could effectivly wipe out their competition. Protest? Force the nano to attack the body and turn them off, saves bullets and bodies.

Also some may be able to re-write their bodies as well, it would probably take a year before that happens, but that is only due to my thought on how fast things today get hacked despite how well a single computer is protected.

Finally and not least, we lose the one thing that made Neko's awesome, 99% female. Now with bodies equal to Neko's available in male costume, we can have all the absurd male stuff that I'm sure most would expect from Nepleslia. In fact Nepleslia would cease to be a cultural enemy of Yamatai because of that, and may have to allow a better female population such as a cure of that Super thing they have. That is, so they don't stagnate to death.

I think the new stuff sounds pretty cool from what I have heard, though why the men don't get like dog ears beats me, since only the female race getting cat ears makes the race as a whole kind of unbalanced in my mind. Really flying while on planet would doesn't seem as a whole game breaking when we have Mindies that I assume can fly in planet atmosphere. But I digress.

Anyway I have no problems with new stuff, though I just wanted to point out that if the environment was a real government and society, there would be problems with this change. Old Nekos won't like it, Old Yamatains won't like it, the open minded would embrace it, and some children may be raised hating Yamatai much like South Carolina still thinks the Civil War is eternal. There would be short term problems since this is the starting of a new race, AND society. It would be a time where Nekos and Yamatains are one and the same.

Only as long as your in the military your a Neko.

 

[Exhack]

Paranoia may also be a factor, since the "Nano" tech may also be used on themselves for not just simply turning off powers, but disabling the body entirely. If a socialist ever took control of Yamatai, they could effectivly wipe out their competition. Protest? Force the nano to attack the body and turn them off, saves bullets and bodies.

Word seems to have been used out of context there.

 

[Fred]

Heh.

* * *

Well, I personally am starting to feel a little weary of the whole debate that's been going on. This thread was about asking for the working ideas behind the NH-30. The "Default" and "Augmented Soldier" facets of the NH-30 concept seem to have drawn the most fire, but it's hardly the only working idea for it.

I'm quite willing to fill you in on some elements if you have specific questions. If you want to nay-say, though, I'd beg that you wait until this comes up in the NTSE forum.

Thank you.

 

[Scot]

Word seems to have been used out of context there.

Any comments about the point of argument? I understand if the exact word does not fit exactly, but the point is the government has control of people's body end of story.

You can't exactly protest to a government that could do that. Unless the rulers are nice, which won't always be the case.

 

[Tom]

You know, if we flip the idea of the creation of the NH-30 as being an effort by Yamataians, who are culturally (in my opinion) the more sophisticated of the two races, to 'reign in' the obviously superior (and dangerous) neko, then this would lend a certain degree of insidious credibility to the 'cultural differences' Yoroko mentioned.

I mean, Yamataians are the civilians, but when the neko come to become civilians, they have all these superior abilities which would make them unbelievably more skilled at any jobs or even hobbies than Yamataians. That's got to be intimidating.

Spin it like this and it looks really yummy to me.