Where do nontelepath races fit in?

[phacon]

So I was reading Doshii response to Exhack in his tech article:

Saying they find it distasteful isn't the same as not being able to do it. That's how I read the description.

As for finding people with psionics, the only time I've seen that is when using a IES unit "ping" a Neko or Yamataian's mind to detect them, and that only works if they're conscious. Otherwise, a Neko or Yamataian can't be detected that way with psionics, as they only "broadcast" at will. (Of course, Melisson and Mefpralphra, endboss of Miharu, can do more.)

An this got me wondering about how we treat nonpsionics?

For creatures that can't use telepathy as a means of communication, like those outside of Yamatains or Mishu, is it fair or expected that psionics can still detect them using telepathy? Or is it more fair to expect such nonpsionic races to be literally a form of colors of static to other races?

For more information about the colors of static here a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colors_of_noise

Personally I think it is more be the latter question for general science fiction(*); however, I wanted to know what other people thought. After all, my personal opinion may not be the correct one.


(*)After all the latter doesn't say that psionic races couldn't still detect where another creature was necessarily.

 

[Nashoba]

Telepathy as we have it, can send to non-telepaths, but the telepath can not read the recipient's mind so they can not get a reply.

Neko's have the ability to encrypt their telepathy, and can send to other Neko's, an NH-22C Yamataian, or obviously Star Army Equipment with PSC devices.

In the case of a a Neko sending to a non-digital brain they would have to send it non-encrypted.

As for sensing minds... its not really spelled out so I would say that its not common.

 

[Fred]

Wait, what?

A neko can't send their brand of telepathy in a non-telepath; if it's not the actual 'real' psionic mental sending, it's simply not universal. Firstly because it's not even actually telepathy and more like a mix voice-chat, text messages and file transfers.

 

[phacon]

[...]
As for sensing minds... its not really spelled out so I would say that its not common.

Yeah that what I gathered from Doshii point to Exhack.

Wait, what?

A neko can't send their brand of telepathy in a non-telepath; if it's not the actual 'real' psionic mental sending, it's simply not universal. Firstly because it's not even actually telepathy and more like a mix voice-chat, text messages and file transfers.

X-X; And here I thought this would be a simple answer <-<; . Well as long as you guys don't break out into an argument over this issue I am ok with whatever side is true.
After all, I don't want a repeat of the Rules 004: Nanotech question thread (stares at directly at Uso).

Telepathy as we have it, can send to non-telepaths, but the telepath can not read the recipient's mind so they can not get a reply.

Neko's have the ability to encrypt their telepathy, and can send to other Neko's, an NH-22C Yamataian, or obviously Star Army Equipment with PSC devices.

In the case of a a Neko sending to a non-digital brain they would have to send it non-encrypted.

Personally Nashoba, I kind of see both your point and Fred's point. On one hand it feels like common sense that non-telepath shouldn't be able to receive a telepath message; on the other hand, I can see why I GM might or might not want telepathy to nontelepaths for certain situations... like for enemy like the Mishu against a non-telepathic race. Kind of makes, witty banter hard.

So I guess the answer is that its up to the GM? Is this correct?

 

[Zack]

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=ex ... perception

and

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=st ... _telepathy

Thoughts can be sent to non-telepaths, but this only allows for one-way conversation.

That is right from the wiki, so it is cannon.

I would also say that you can not use it to detect non-telepaths. After all it says their minds are not constantly transmitting so there would be nothing to detect. On the other hand it says that you can read emotions implying you could use that to seek someone out provided they are in a heightened emotional state.

But as Nash said, it isn't really spelled out.

 

[Wes]

I think we should revise this so that thoughts cannot be sent to non-telepaths, because it would make more sense that way because non-telepaths don't have the "antenna" to receive communications.

 

[Fred]

If we're going to dwell on nomenclature, maybe it could be a good idea not to call how Yamataians and Nekos mentally communicate 'telepathy'?

Digital communication, or something close to that? If they have the equivalent of cellphone in their heads we might avoid a lot of future confusion by correctly labeling those.

In a related tangent:
I know I've long thought that Soul Transfer Technology was rather misnamed amongst Yamataians given how they really don't believe a whit in souls. It's not Soul Transfer, it's Mind Transfer. It's not Soul Backup, it's Mind Backup. Or Brain, OS, or something like that. I wouldn't even be surprised if the tech was actually incompatible between the digital brains and the natural ones.

 

[Zack]

At this point we really should just say that the NH series has built in wireless connectivity.

I think that accurately describes it, after all they can share all types of data above and beyond basic communication. It should be something separate from telepathy, and telepathy (ESP) should be phased out entirely.

 

[Nashoba]

I disagree with the proposal to change the Neko telepathy to something else. I also disagree with reversing the rule allowing a telepath to send to a non-telepath. Its not about having an antenna. Heck, compared to most Sci Fi instances, we have it reversed, B5 and Star Trek both had it that Telepaths could read non-telepath surface thoughts.


Fred,
As for the ST technology, when it was Stolen from the Elysians back in YE 01, that is what it was called. There has been a shift from how it is referred to colloquially. It is commonly referred to ICly as getting a mental back up done, Proposal #75 - Memory Backup Protection Act, refers to it as memory backup, Type 30 Mental Transfer and Backup Unit is the latest version of the hardware. So I suggest that we just update the Soul Transfer page to Mental backup and refer to the fact that when it was originally acquired from the Elysians it was Soul transfer but that term is no longer used by Yamataians. After all, I am pretty sure that an Elysian who gets one done will still think of it as Soul Transfer, a) because its a cultural things, b) they believe in Souls.

 

[MissingNo]

The term "Soul Transfer" is likely just a carryover from the Elysians, who originally developed the tech if I recall.

 

[phacon]

Sigh, guess this is going to turn into a discussion. >.<;;

Well as long as you guys remain civil, I guess I don't mind. Again, from an implementation standpoint I say, you could go either way.

Heck, compared to most Sci Fi instances, we have it reversed, B5 and Star Trek both had it that Telepaths could read non-telepath surface thoughts.

Actually, I think I remember in Star Trek case and maybe the B5 case, the galaxy of species turned out to be all originate from one that actually was telepathic.

Still from an effect stand point, there where species in both examples that could only communicate through telepathy. I thought that was the case with the mishu; however, now I am not 100% sure.

So, I am not sure which side is right >.<;;

____

As for Soul Transfer tech. Well actually a while back there was a youtube video about the digital soul that we talked about on megatokyo forums. There we called the consciousness or "cognitive soul". (like AppleSeed or Ghost in the Shell-esk)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fD7Pu40qeI&sns=em

Maybe we could compromise and add the word "Digital" or "Cognitive" to Soul Transfer Tech

here... is the megatokyo debate...
I am hesitant to link to because well certain people, *cough* me *cough* got into a heated argument about whether or not this was science.
http://forums.megatokyo.com/index.php?showtopic=1737238
Plus in a month this link will probably be voided because they delete topics that have been dead for more than a month old over there.

 

[Fred]

Sigh, guess this is going to turn into a discussion. >.<;;

We, the community, apologize for getting interested in the topic broached and pitching in. In the future, we can ignore opportunities to discuss things that you bring up. It is, after all, easier to be lazy and not invest oneself.

* * *

I can get behind Mental Transfer/Backup tech. I guess that position is again me not being up to date with present times. It does make more sense for me to consider it Yamataian/neko only for the Yamataian devices seeing that it actually feels like such mental transfer is more credible as transference of data, whereas the kind of recording required for Elysians and Nepleslians would appear to be a wholly different method altogether with their brains being non-digital.

But making it broader makes it kind of easier to have mixed race plotships, so... *shrugs*

* * *

I think we should revise this so that thoughts cannot be sent to non-telepaths, because it would make more sense that way because non-telepaths don't have the "antenna" to receive communications.

At this point we really should just say that the NH series has built in wireless connectivity.

I think that accurately describes it, after all they can share all types of data above and beyond basic communication. It should be something separate from telepathy, and telepathy (ESP) should be phased out entirely.

I disagree with the proposal to change the Neko telepathy to something else. I also disagree with reversing the rule allowing a telepath to send to a non-telepath. Its not about having an antenna. Heck, compared to most Sci Fi instances, we have it reversed, B5 and Star Trek both had it that Telepaths could read non-telepath surface thoughts.

Nashoba, the fact is that nothing about the nekovalkyrja would be really changed so much as simply given a more accurate name.

I would like to keep ESP/Telepathy around in SARP since other species could still end up using it. I do, however, agree that what nekos and yamataians do is not telepathy.

There's actually nothing for you to disagree with here, Nashoba. It's not even telepathy in the first place, it's just mistakenly named that. There's no rule being reversed either. This situation is just something being detailed - hopefully in a more accurate direction - for consistency.

This doesn't prevent you from having a true psionically telepathic race from sending messages or thoughts to non-psionics. The Yamataians would simply not be part of that bag (with Nepleslian cybernetic wireless communication probably sharing that same bag too).

 

[Nashoba]

Then I guess we can just erase the NH-29 Signaler since you are claiming that Neko's don't have Telepathy, so obviously the NH-29 Signaler can't either.

To paraphrase one of my favorite tv personalities. I reject your reality and substitute my own.

Bottom line please do not tell me what I can or can not disagree with, my opinion and decision stand. I disagree with the changing of this established facet of the Neko's.

There's actually nothing for you to disagree with here, Nashoba. It's not even telepathy in the first place, it's just mistakenly named that. There's no rule being reversed either. This situation is just something being detailed - hopefully in a more accurate direction - for consistency.

 

[Fred]

Actually, I thought about the Signaler thing already. I didn't see it as getting in the way: it's just a different feature.

Yamatai has PSC devices in order to not be one-upped by psionic opponents. It's not because neko 'communication' is digital that it invalidates everything else. The NH-17T nekos probably would've had their digital communication and inbred psionic abilities like the Elysian Seraphs did.

A nekovalkyrja whom has digital communication and psionic telepathic skills? That's possible. Just probably not the norm, or frequent due to the ESP rules. It's hard to deny that some nekovalkyrja were not once psionic after all... but that was some time ago and Wes clearly did some effort to strip all the psionics away and give it a noticeably different theme.

The NH-29 Signaler is pretty much the precursor of what could probably be a nekovalkyrja species that has no psionic powers of their own, except when they're faced by such opponents. At that point, they can still fight on mostly equal terms, thus keeping the "I don't want to be one-upped by other faction's psionics" intent Wes had for slapping PSC systems on every ship anyhow.

By the way, I know the avatar makes me look nasty, but I was giving reassurances - not shoving words in your mouth. As for decision, you're not up against me; you're up against Wes - I'm not going to take your word as law when it's Wes' race and Wes is better aware than anyone else of how he wants his race depicted. I wouldn't even be broaching the subject if I didn't think it wouldn't be something Wes would want to a degree.

 

[Tom]

It never made sense to me how the 'computerized' brains of android species like the Neko and the Yamataian could potentially send thoughts to 'fleshy' species without such enhancements.

By the rules, can a Neko send 'telepathic' messages to a Phod or an Elysian? If so, this opens up a can of worms.

How does this work? I cannot wrap my head around it.

Until my wireless router can send videos of my favorite adult entertainment star to my brain, saving me quite a bit of needless time clicking mice and using search engines, I can't really label any of this being anything else but supernatural psionic power.

But weren't we trying to phase that out long ago? Why do we have remnants of it around still?

 

[Doshii Jun]

What examples do we have of Yamataian or Neko telepaths sending to nontelepath peoples?

Nyton Claymere had to have an implant to receive and decode telepathic messages. So that's a count against nontelepaths hearing such things.

 

[MissingNo]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain%E2%8 ... asive_BCIs

SARP takes place in the future. A digital device can receive information now, so it's not impossible that the reverse could be developed. And, given the fine-tuning sensors have been given in the SARP universe, nekos could sense certain types of mental activity. There's a toy that reacts to the amount of concentration the user has, so I'm sure sensors can pick up heightened mental activity (from emotions, concentration, or stress...zoned-out or easygoing people could be invisible, perhaps, or require close proximity to detect them?).

 

[Doshii Jun]

Missing, I don't understand your post. You mean to say that some Neko could detect organic telepathy, or could be modified to do so?

 

[Soresu]

All Neko "telepathy" is, is Wi-Fi sent to one another via their digital brains. It is their brand of Telepathy, even if the word doesn't fit. As for real telepathy, why get rid of it? What harm can it cause? By now someone, somewhere would have evolved enough to have it and now we're saying "Phase Psionics and Telepathy out, we don't need them!" Then why have PCS and ADN devices still? Not like such things can't block either of them.

"Phasing Out" Telepathy is like saying wormholes shouldn't exist in the universe and blackholes just lead to Steve Jobs' wallet and the earth is flat. "Phasing Out" things is a very poor excuse to sweep it under the rug to begin with. Can't just up and say: "I telepathically spoke to you a moment ago and now we cannot because the Rurrus changed for existence." It'd be a Catch-22 as far as established canon goes.

Neko's have their own Wi-Fi "Telepathy", while other races without digital brains could have developed 'conventional' telepathy that uses actual brainwaves. Would it be so prevalent, so widespread as Neko "Telepathy"? no. Something like natural psionics and telepathy would be rare. Or will this be another aspect we remove from the site? All because one or two guys six or seven years ago "Gaia Online, Deus Ex'd" it during some fight that most guys on here now haven't even heard of.

Doesn't mean it will happen now. Not if it is regulated and if character would have it then guess what? It goes through the Character Forum anyways so it would be evaluated.

A race with telepathy? Psionics? It goes through the NTSE where it'd be scrutinized the moment the long thought accursed words of Telepathy or Psionics were mentioned. I just think it's time to put these old taboos and what not to rest. It's tiresome.

 

[Zack]

We got rid of telepathy in the first place because it was used to do bullshit metagaming. Using 'telepathy' you can justify anything so it is way better for the setting as a whole to get rid of it entirely.

Natural psionics wouldn't exist of course, and even if they did they would need a very specific 'telepathic language' in order to converse. It would be impossible to communicate to another species because their brains would simply be wired differently. There is then the issue of what would telepaths be detecting and sending? There are no 'psionic particles' to use so detection of other creatures would have to be handwaved.

The only reasonable way of doing it is a biological radio, in the fashion of Wireless connectivity / digital brain signals. We've phased things out before for the sake of improving the site and psionics should just be another one of those things we've outgrown.