Where do nontelepath races fit in?

[phacon]

So I was reading Doshii response to Exhack in his tech article:

Saying they find it distasteful isn't the same as not being able to do it. That's how I read the description.

As for finding people with psionics, the only time I've seen that is when using a IES unit "ping" a Neko or Yamataian's mind to detect them, and that only works if they're conscious. Otherwise, a Neko or Yamataian can't be detected that way with psionics, as they only "broadcast" at will. (Of course, Melisson and Mefpralphra, endboss of Miharu, can do more.)

An this got me wondering about how we treat nonpsionics?

For creatures that can't use telepathy as a means of communication, like those outside of Yamatains or Mishu, is it fair or expected that psionics can still detect them using telepathy? Or is it more fair to expect such nonpsionic races to be literally a form of colors of static to other races?

For more information about the colors of static here a link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colors_of_noise

Personally I think it is more be the latter question for general science fiction(*); however, I wanted to know what other people thought. After all, my personal opinion may not be the correct one.


(*)After all the latter doesn't say that psionic races couldn't still detect where another creature was necessarily.

 

[Soresu]

Brainwaves Uso, Brainwaves. We detect them now with modern technology. Natural Psionics which seem to be feared is the focusing of said brainwaves into the form of kinetic force or bending of gravity. Which we also seem to already have on here. Don't deny it. We have floating catgirls that use gravity. We have suped up catgirls with magnetic field manipulation that can also generate electricity to an extent and even utilize metal from their bodies as a weapon like a poorman's Magneto minus Ian McKellen. We already have wild and 'impossible' things on here in abundance.

And you are calling out natural psionics... -Shakes his head.-

We got rid of telepathy in the first place because it was used to do bullshit metagaming. Using 'telepathy' you can justify anything so it is way better for the setting as a whole to get rid of it entirely.

Untrue. Telepathy works like Neko Wi-Fi "Telepathy" but it doesn't usually include verbal speech or text messaging. Pictures or sensations can get the point across just as much as me typing up a text on my phone. And who said they'd use it on other species to talk? Brains being wired differently? The brain is an electrochemical computer. It is universally (On here) almost the same save for the construction of the hemispheres. To date the only species not to have such a brain are the Sourcians who utilize a different brain all together.

But let me remind you before you forget. Why use it on other species? Before you give me your answer: "Because it wouldn't work out so well." Two species' understanding maybe different right down to perceptions. So instead any smart person would not resort to Telepathy on a different species and instead manually learn their language. Besides, it is polite.

But then again most of what I say usually goes ignored anyways... Save for the fact "Phasing Out" things is still a cheap way of doing it. I know it is, you know it is, everyone knows it is. Because if someone comes along and sees two catgirls chatting it up over "Telepathy" they will ask, "Why can't my guy have telepathy as well? Or why does no one else have this marvel of evolution that is brainwave telepathy? Why do they get their own kind of telepathy?"

Telepaths wouldn't detect much of anything since a person would quite possibly feel the intrusion. Or their mind is not "Open" to the telepath. On prior sites I have been on we've solved that problem. And I am pleasantly surprised we haven't here. Well, beyond breaking out the stakes, kindling and going Salem witch trials on it.

I do not believe "Improving the site" is a good enough excuse. It is a very thin veneer to hide behind. Since I will reiterate: Someone, Somewhere would have evolved to that point. Like I said before "PSC and ADN" are here as we've developed a trend of anti-tech tech so what's the problem?

Simply because one does not like it is once again a very poor excuse to say otherwise. I believe we are mature enough to handle organic Telepathy given guidelines. I believe Psionics can be handled in very small doses if used by responsible people who have discussed its use prior to using it. And if the new guy sees someone using either of these and asks the same question as above:

"Until we can determine if you will stick around and are a responsible individual these things are restricted to those who have proven themselves capable of handling it fairly and reasonably." Not everyone are like those who botched it for us in the past for seven years. And burying our heads in the sand over the issue does nothing.

-Shrugs and ducks out of this kettle of fish for good.-

 

[MissingNo]

Missing, I don't understand your post. You mean to say that some Neko could detect organic telepathy, or could be modified to do so?

Somewhat. I mean that a neko could detect brain pattern emissions that are already being detected using sensors today; the neko could just do it better from further away because their sensors are better than ours. The 'organic' subject doesn't even need to be telepathic, the detection would just be a sensor reading.

What I was trying to say is that a neko can sense other people via technology even if her own brain is digital and neither she or the other person are telepathic. What she probably couldn't do is read the person's thoughts or send her own thoughts to them unless the person had an adapter to receive and send in the same fashion the neko does.

High-tech wi-fi describes neko 'telepathy' quite well. Highly-encrypted and directed, but wi-fi at its heart.

As for real telepathy, why get rid of it? What harm can it cause? By now someone, somewhere would have evolved enough to have it and now we're saying "Phase Psionics and Telepathy out, we don't need them!" Then why have PCS and ADN devices still? Not like such things can't block either of them.

First, you don't know how much time has passed to allow such things to develop naturally. Second, what's the point if you're the only one with it (only reasonable since mutations are random and the chances of a duplicate mutation manifesting a compatible power is infinitesimal at best)? And, third, PSC and ADN devices are holdovers from when this was an open universe (back when the Transuniversal Teleportation Drive was not banned technology and AvaNet had remade the universe). Back before SARP became its own isolated setting, Yui interacted with psionic characters. Back when Ayanee was a place where everyone was powered-up, tech-based characters needed ways to negate certain powers. Alpha-Delta wave Neutralizers and Psionic Signal Controls were developed to do this.

Since then Wes has tried his best to remove magic and psionics from the setting. He hasn't been able to do it completely (see: Eve, Kohanians, Melumsi, attempts at mimicking magic via PANTHEON controls), but at least two of those examples are inactive or dead anyway. The remaining might also be inactive.

I believe we are mature enough to handle organic Telepathy given guidelines.

Like Uso said, people were abusing telepathy and psionics. Badly. There are already things the site hasn't been able to balance to the satisfaction of everyone. Psionics are worse than technology. And maturity has nothing to do with it; preference has everything to do with it, and you can't guarantee a player's maturity. It's easier to do clean-up when there wasn't a mess to start with.

We already have wild and 'impossible' things on here in abundance.

But we do them with SCIENCE! ^_^ The difference between natural psionics and neko gravity manipulation is the presence of a non-biological -- or, at the minimum, a non-natural biological -- device that performs the manipulation. Otherwise you may as well call a person with an implant that allows him to control the electronics in his house a "psionic".

Because if someone comes along and sees two catgirls chatting it up over "Telepathy" they will ask, "Why can't my guy have telepathy as well? Or why does no one else have this marvel of evolution that is brainwave telepathy? Why do they get their own kind of telepathy?"

When that happens, he will be answered "It is technology", given details if he asks, give his character an implant if he wants, and we will move on.

In the end, we can probably safely say that AvaNet avatars removed paranormal psionics and telepathy before they were banished. Everything since then is tech. There is no retcon to do. I've even got a way to explain the Melumsi that doesn't have anything to do with paranormal psionics.

 

[Soresu]

-Breaks his silence.-

Then what you are saying is Blackholes do lead to Steve Jobs' wallet and wormholes shouldn't exist in this universe. Using Avanet is a poor excuse to be rid of "paranormal" Psionics as well. You also say PSC and ADN are "Holdovers" and yet they are still widely used.

As far as I can tell SARP is set thousands of years into the future. As our planet has been here for a few billion years already and the universe a few billion more as well it is safe to assume something has developed Psionics or Telepathy. You can't refute that. But then burying heads in the sand and thinking chipper thoughts is what is going on with this.

Science! on here is close to Magic! anyways. So, why so serious? Are people truly that afraid of seeing someone with brain powers? Or is it a scant few who 'remember' a few instants seven years ago and simply don't like it that get the final say? Do we not already have things in place to limit these things? Or did Avanet wipe out those as well before it disappeared to the Fairy Kingdom?

Let's get one thing straight. I never used Neko "powers" much. I didn't use their floating or "telepathy" much at all. Since it felt like a poor analog to real Psionics. I still feel Telepathy for them is an entirely wrong term and misleads.

You say it is a simple matter of "Give him an implant and send him on his merry way." It isn't so simple. People will ask and continue to ask. Both because of an improper term being used and it wouldn't be right. One race has their brand of Telepathy so why can't others? Implants! another excuse. You call natural psionics "paranormal" they are not. Natural psionics are evolutionary and therefore fall under the purview of natural Science!. Or have we also decided Darwin was a dunce and sand atop our heads is best? Avanet would have had to kill every biological lifeform in the universe and then recreate them, re-write their DNA to never allow for it and then make sure everyone was where they were at before Avatar universe god death.

Which sounds worse? Psionics or Godlike science beings wiping out all life and having to make everything from scratch again to prevent the rise of natural Psionics? Even then nature would find a way. :\ -Presents a bunny with a pancake on its head.-

You speak of maturity and how we cannot gauge it. I do believe I quite clearly said "Before they would be used, a person would speak to the other on when and how they would use them." But I can see where you are coming from. People don't communicate. It is best to just sweep it aside and not think of such things ever happening despite them having happened and believe it will happen again because of a few unruly people years and years ago.

I can handle using Psionics and Telepathy. I am responsible and mature enough to know when and where and how to use them. I'd even go so far as to do like I said above and inform people of it. I haven't ever really abused the system ICly with Neko powers or cybernetics science! and so on. I'm sure there are other people as well.

I'm surprised people seem to think other people are in capable of this. And incapable of communication. To my knowledge science! on here has been abused more then Psionics ever could. But we need science don't we? Otherwise we'd be land locked and using stone tools again. So we just get rid of things we don't need without second thoughts on how they can be used later or at all and the opportunities missed. I can see how this would work out as a limiting factor.

On roleplay that is. Science created Avanet avatars who are terribly worse than Psionics but once again Psionics are being called out. Science is abused on here as well. Plain and Simple. But since this is a roleplay site that is ok. But it isn't ok to have Psionics? How obtuse. Once again my post has gone fully mis-understood. I said natural psionics would be rare telepathy as well, didn't I?

-Gives out another bunny with a pancake on its head and a brush for the sand on the other's head.-

So why not have someone try them out. and see where it goes before pulling a "Salem" on it like humans usually do with things they don't understand or base their judgments on a few others who ruin it for the rest of us?

 

[Wes]

Here's what I want to do:

1. Uphold the rules on ESP/telepathy. Specifically: The rules say "other telepaths can hear telepathy" which implies that non-telepaths (humans and most species) cannot hear broadcasted thoughts. because of this, the blurb in the neko powers section needs to be updated so it doesn't permit nekos to transmit to non-telepaths. Passive mind reading of anyone (telepath or not), which is hearing non-broadcasted thoughts without "pinging" the target mind, remains not allowed.

2. Revise the Nekovalkyrja to move away from using the term "telepathy" and instead use "wireless." Possibly create a new baseline neko to replace the NH-29.

 

[Soresu]

Sounds fine to me.

 

[Fred]

Here's what I want to do:

2. [...] Possibly create a new baseline neko to replace the NH-29.

This is a bit of a tangent, but I don't see this as being terribly necessary at this time until the next nekovalkyrja type represents more significant changes than that (I touched on that very topic when trying to make the 'next neko update', only to feel it was gimmicky and lacked cause or substance). Losing the SLICS shoulderholes and replacing it with the SPINE interface was a non-trivial change, and yet the NH-27's classification remained unchanged. The NH-29 can probably 'suffer' a few tweaks at quarterly medical check-ups without having to change dramatically.

'The mental communication works this way' is much more a matter of OoC clarification than anything else. This is a change on our side for consistency more than in the IC world, since for them life will probably move on mostly as it was.

 

[MissingNo]

You can't refute that. But then burying heads in the sand and thinking chipper thoughts is what is going on with this.
[...]
Or did Avanet wipe out those as well before it disappeared to the Fairy Kingdom?
[...]
Or have we also decided Darwin was a dunce and sand atop our heads is best?
[...]
-Gives out another bunny with a pancake on its head and a brush for the sand on the other's head.-

Soresu, your condensation was not appreciated. Next time, please leave the superiority complex and the emotion-driven attacks at home and present your facts, theories, and opinions without trying to slap the other contributors with insults. Calling someone stupid is not the best way to win them over to your side.

Thank you.

To address at least one of your concerns, terminology is misleading. It happens. Real life has these terms too. Most of the time, it's slang, other times it's the name of the product and intended to draw attention to that product. In fiction, The Matrix isn't a matrix. Evangelion's Angels aren't angels, or even spirit beings. For that matter, Elysians are not from the Greek Underworld, Nekovalkyrja aren't Norse maidens who take the dead warriors to Valhalla (and, though they do have cat-like ears, they have no genetic similarities to felines), and K.I.N.E.S.I.S. has nothing to do with psionics.

And, finally, assuming Darwin has been proven right here does not mean it works the same way in SARP. In fact, it doesn't even work the same way in X-Men. Since SARP is defined by the writers, some stuff doesn't match the real world. Things get screwy when you try to apply real life to a fictional universe : / The best you can do is define the rules for that setting and follow them. It works, but usually not to everyone's satisfaction.

I am not trying to be sarcastic or condescending here. I am bringing information to your attention to consider. If you don't...well, an agreement seems to have been reached a few posts up, so I'll drop the subject.

No hard feelings (0:50).

 

[Soresu]

Actually you've once again found my post misleading. I do not recall saying people were stupid. And I do not feel superior. Putting words in one's mouth isn't a very good way to get the point across, Missing. I also was not trying to win anyone over to anyone side. I wanted to know why everyone is so fearful of the word Psionics without having tried it out now. Simply because it is something with potential.

Thank You.

Condensation and sarcasm aside I still do not see where you are coming from beyond dislikes and not giving things a try. I also did not mention Elysians, Nekovalkyrja (Beyond their telepathy) or whatever "K.I.N.E.S.I.S" is when bringing up terminology and there was very little information in your post to consider beyond being glib. But you are indeed right, an agreement has been reached and we should drop this and move on. However I intend to use Psionics and Telepathy if or when I choose to do something anyways. -Shrugs- Because the site is indeed defined by us, the writers. I hadn't intended to do reality bending feats of godmodding with it either. If that was what was so feared in terms of the past then I believe it states clearly in Wes' link what can be utilized and what cannot. Which I was going to adhere to if the need arose.

None Taken. I've actually pre-ordered this just for the roll cage. Plus, because Portal is win.

 

[MissingNo]

Actually you've once again found my post misleading. I do not recall saying people were stupid. And I do not feel superior. Putting words in one's mouth isn't a very good way to get the point across, Missing.

Which is why I quoted those specific portions of your post...how else is anyone supposed to take those comments? If you did not mean them to be insulting, then the imagery was completely unnecessary. As it was, the words used appear derisive in tone and aimed to minimize what they describe to other readers as being things not worth taking seriously.

Condensation and sarcasm aside I still do not see where you are coming from beyond dislikes and not giving things a try.

The ban was put in place because they were given a try and deemed unnecessary. I do not have a personal dislike for telepathy or psionics. The higher-ups might, or they might just not want to deal with regulating those things. Ask them. Some even use telepathy and psionics despite the ban...so...yeah.

I also did not mention Elysians, Nekovalkyrja (Beyond their telepathy) or whatever "K.I.N.E.S.I.S" is when bringing up terminology[...]

You said that calling what nekos did "telepathy" was misleading terminology. I was using what I listed as examples of misleading terminology that have not been objected to and explaining why misleading terminology exists.

None Taken. I've actually pre-ordered this just for the roll cage.

Sweet : ) Buuut...you missed the point. I posted that for the single audio clip at the noted time stamp...not the game.

It seems you and I focus on different parts of a post, I think. If a post is an asymmetrical object, I am looking at from a 230-degree angle and you are seeing it from a 85-degree angle, rotated fifteen degrees up, then we are seeing the same object, but completely different observations and end up with no point of reference except that something is there. We just can't agree on what that thing is.

Oh well.

 

[Zack]

TL, DNR


We need to lay out ground rules for telepaths being able to feel out where people are and how they do it. Personally, I'd rather just see the rules updated to disallow this.

 

[Exhack]

TL, DNR


We need to lay out ground rules for telepaths being able to feel out where people are and how they do it. Personally, I'd rather just see the rules updated to disallow this.

Stop having fun, guys.

 

[Ira]

If I may interject here. The brain operates as a collection of electrical impulse that can indeed be measured and charted.

The idea of "Telepathy" being impossible or unrealistic is kind of silly, considering that most scientific research for or against it is largely in conclusive.

I understand why Telepathy and Telekinetics are banned from the forum, but I do think with the admin team we presently have, and the skilled set of writers on the forum we could make biological telepathy work. It would have to be seriously managed, and have s strict set of draconian rules.

I think we can all be adults here, and should play nice together.

Plus saying "no telepathy is allowed" and giving your own race abilities similar to it using technology and other clauses...that kind of you know is a loophole.

So my question to this is simple "Why can we not regulate telepath's and make, and make them work?"

 

[Zack]

The difference between having a wireless connectivity ability and telepathy is simple.

Data sharing over a radio is fairly well understood. You know what you can do with this technology on both a GM and player level.

Telepathy is way more open ended, so it is more open for abuse. Mental attacks, ESP for detecting people, and reading other people's minds (a process that today takes very powerful magnets...) are good examples of things that GMs and Players are going to have very different ideas about. This leads to the same kind of roleplaying that caused the rules crackdown on psionics. It also looks like we didn't really cover everything when we did the rules changes last time.

 

[Ira]

So then make set of rules for it, and heavily enforce them with a brutal zeal.

 

[Zack]

Since telepathy is essentially magic/mysticism, we would need to have a rule to cover everything that someone might think you could do with telepathy.

This would essentially have to be a list saying that you can only do certain things with telepathy and nothing else. Even then it is likely we still won't be specific enough to cover everything.

Considering that we're trying to avoid the magic and mysticism, it'd be far better to remove telepathy entirely and replace it with tech solutions like a biological radio or wireless connectivity. This neatly solves the problems with using telepathy as a justification for magically knowing where people are or for a 'brute force attack' (I'll bet that no two people have the exact same idea of what that is) but still allows for telepathy like abilities in a manner that is more consistent with the setting (Ghost in the Shell style communications). If a new race wants to use telepathy they'd have to have specific organs for transmitting signals biological radio style. This would also neatly define what they can and can't do with their telepathy like abilities, preventing them from using these abilities to magically know where people are or for 'mind assaults'.

 

[Soresu]

Stop having fun, guys.

Since a decision had been reached already I think this thread has somewhat outlived its usefulness.

 

[Nashoba]

Wes already made his ruling on the subject. Locking this thread.

 

[Wes]

Since it looks like this is now decided, I've updated the NH-29 page so that their abilities are in line with the same ESP rules all the other species follow.