Rejected Submission C9 'Pine Class Optionally Manned Warship'

[Zack]

Submission URL

https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9

Submission Type: Starship
Template Used: Starship
Submission WIP URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9
Submission Destination URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=faction:uso:c9

Faction: USO
FM Approved Yet? Yes
Faction requires art? Yes

For Reviewers:
Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? Yes
In addition to the articles up for approval elsewhere as part of the: C8: https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/index.php?threads/c8.62053/ and U7 : https://stararmy.com/roleplay-forum/index.php?threads/u7b-command-craft.62173/ There are:
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c4_interstellar_jet
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:sutafaia_defense_system
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9shivaturret
- https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=wip:faction:uso:c9verticallaunchcell

Contains New art? Yes
Previously Submitted? No

Notes: Hi Ame

 

[META_mahn]

Claimed; will review later.

 

[Alex Hart]

Yeah, no sliding by with this many unapproved articles. No easy review today. This needs a good examination to make sure it’s ok

Even as an FM OF the USO it annoys me how you try to powergame so much. Giant unkillable ships everywhere is no fun.

 

[Rizzo]

FSC Approved

 

[Alex Hart]

One concern I have is the proliferation of really large ships. It's makign it harder and harder to convey a sense of scale if everything everywhere is huge just because it's 'not worth building outside of tier 12-15'. For instance, I've got a giant ship planned to be retrofitted soon, and with these being attempted at, it's going to make it look like 3.5km ships are the norm.

It's also somewhat annoying that a backwater nation like the USO will soon have more tier 15 ships, which are reserved for the biggest of the big ships that huge star nations can make, than nations like Yamatai.

 

[Rizzo]

 

[META_mahn]

This review is for: C9 Warship

The submitted article is/has…
[ No ] A very high level of overall quality

• Recently I learned that every single subsection requires prose, confirmed by Wes. (Thanks, Zeus submission.)
  • Flavor text is cool. Flavor text is good.
  • Marked every single subsection that requires prose with a ¤ symbol.
    • Because it looks like a bug and it's a bug in the review. geddit hehehhehe funny joek

[ Yes ] A general topic sentence under the title header

• A bit small. Please expand.

[ Yes ] Artwork (Required for new species; Strongly recommended for vehicles and hand weapons)\\

• EVERYTHING HAS ARTWORK.

[ No ] Needed and/or useful to the setting

• Why does USO, a backwater nation, have a Tier 15 dreadnought? It's a small dready, granted, but a dreadnought-tier ship is a dreadnought-tier ship.
• Wait...most of this ship is a radiator.
  • We'll address this in a later section. It's a mechanical issue.

[ Yes ] In the proper format/template
[ Yes ] Proofread for spelling and grammar
[ Yes ] Easy to read and understand (not a lengthy mass of technobabble)
[ Yes ] Wikified (terms that could be a link should be a link)
[ Yes ] No red and/or broken links
[ Yes ] Reasonably scientifically plausible
[ Yes ] Reasonably neutral point of view

The submitted article is/does not…
[ Maybe? ] Overpowered (or cutting tech for a faction with little or no roleplay)

• Refer to Notes.

[ No ] Obtusely redundant
[ No ] Contain copy pasta descriptions of systems or interior compartments
[ No ] Unauthorized by faction managers or player-controlled corporation
[ No ] Contain references to IC events that have not occurred (SM must authorize retcons)
[ No ] Use second-person language (“you” or “your”) unless it is an instructional guide aimed at players.
[ No ] Use bombastic language (“virtually immune,” “nearly indestructible,” “insanely powerful,” “horrible effects”)
[ No ] Use an unbalanced header/text ratio (many headers but sections are one-liners)
[ Yes ] Use major unapproved sub-articles that should be submitted separately

• Waiting on approval for C8. Honestly, this should have been submitted after the C8 was reviewed.
• Sutafaia Defense System: Starfire Recoiless Gravity Cannon needs approval.

[ No ] Lacking Detail
[ No ] Images hosted on sites other than stararmy.com (Photobucket, Imageshack, etc are not allowed)

The article has…
[ Yes ] Speeds in compliance with the Starship Speed Standard, if applicable
[ Yes ] Damage Capacity and Damage Ratings in compliance with the DR Guidelines

• The balance of which is questionable.

[ Yes ] The in-character year of creation/manufacture. (Should be current year. Future years not allowed).
[ No ] The Standard Product Nomenclature System, if applicable.

• Where's the nomenclature for...basically everything?

Summary
Address the colored stuff. You know how it goes.

Status: Approved

Notes
I'll give you a chance right now to go refill your cup/bottle. Done? Okay. I'll try to organize this for you all.

• C9 CORE
  • Personally, I don't think the radiator should be considered as part of the armor tier. While the radiator is a huge part of the ship, it's as if someone stuck a 1.5km long antenna to a power armor and called it a battleship. Okay, maybe not that extreme...but still. You get it. Especially since defensive DR is supposed to be a representation of ship mass, not length.
    • Otherwise, we could make paper-thin ships 5km long and call them dreadnoughts. Let's not go there because it doesn't make any sense.
      • Yes it's a Robocraft joke. MOVING ON.
  • Honestly, the fact both the C8 and C9 can still function even when divided into little bits really challenges how ships function in SARP. When you kill a ship in SARP, it should by all means just blow up and Bob's your uncle. That's how we treat things in DRv3. But with the C9, when it blows up you now have smaller, lower tier ships to deal with, still with big nasty weapons, like say the Tier 15 C8 Laser Facility.
    • Then, the question begs: Why hasn't anyone else done this? Drones are no new thing in SARP.
    • I'd recommend SM approval. Hey @Wes how's it going.
    • Alternatively, the ship will still blow up whenever it suffers critical damage, like a normal ship does. The Electronic Containers simply function as a method to keep systems running up until that point, because unlike a normal ship, an automated ship does not have crew that can man stations, no matter how damaged.
      • This makes it so that systems such as the main guns can still be used if the on-tier "Potentially Lethal" damage is not actually lethal damage, instead piercing through the ship and taking out a lot of signal buses.
        • This way, the ship will be very, very powerful...but not overpowered.
  • 10ly scanner...no, that looks good!
    • Though I'd like a sensor package suite. Like as an article.
  • 6 Tier 15 weapons at a beam's worth of fire rate, 2 Tier 10 weapons at a 50rpm fire rate, 9 SHIVA cannons each at Tier 12, maybe Tier 13, 4 ECM pods, and 6 Tier 8 turrets that fire at 2000RPM. Each covered with armor.
    • VARIED WEAPONS ARE AWESOME. Yes they are.
    • Honestly I feel like that's too many C8 laser facilities. Each one is also incredibly powerful and VERY high tech. I...don't think I can approve them, no.
    • Sutafaias are cool. I like them.
    • Damn those SHIVAs are huge. And slow. It's not the worst thing I've seen, it's not the best. But good way of mitigating its bad fire rate: JUST SPAM THEM!
    • I feel like those PD turrets fire a bit too fast. Maybe cut down on their number; it may be impossible for any sort of missile or armor to approach.
      • Yes yes projectile speed. Mreh.
• C9 Shiva Turret
  • 1 RPM. Feels like a standard cannon used on a ship. No issues!
    • Sub-article approved
• C9 Vertical Launch Shell
  • I see. You are also a man of good taste; armoring your turrets. Fun flavor text article.
    • I'd say write down how long it takes each shell door to open.
• C4 Interstellar Jet
  • Long boi rocket.
  • I don't see much of an issue with this stuff.
  • Sub-article approved
• U7b Command Craft
  • I do not have the power to approve this here. Awaiting its approval.
• Electronics Box
  • Grammatical fixes.
  • It's actually not too bad in itself. It's really just the way it's used that's the problem.
  • Consulting @Ametheliana if she has no problems with it being approved in the C8 thread as well.
• C8 Defense Field Facility
  • I would recommend writing in that you are not allowed to layer on more than 300% shield power due to diminishing returns from layering on additional shields by moving the turrets towards a desired direction.
    • This makes it so people don't get the wrong impression that you can point every C8 defense field facility on a craft towards a certain direction to achieve 600% shield power. Because that breaks how barriers work.
  • I would also suggest making it so the shield generated is the same tier as the ship it's on.
• BoxMine
  • The equivalent of fighters. Not a bad idea, really.
    • I'd suggest making a BoxMine launcher so that the EMP pods don't end up nuking out your own Electronics Boxes.
  • They're a bit spammed on the C8 and C9, so I'd suggest toning down their numbers a little.
• C8 Laser Facility
  • Big Tier 15 laser? A bit technologically advanced...too advanced for USO.
  • Also does a bit too much damage. But that's a problem for both the C8 and C9 to deal with.

I intend to finish this review by: (6/17/2018)

 

[Alex Hart]

Addressing the point defense, I'd make the point that there's only 8 of the PD turrets, making them unable to really deal with any massed attack.

 

[META_mahn]

They say a picture speaks a thousand words.

So I let this picture speak its thousand words.

 

[Alex Hart]

Maybe so, but on a ship that big, and with only 8, you can't reliably defend, so I think the point defense at least is balanced fairly well.

 

[META_mahn]

You may be right.

...further simulation is required. (Though, the Touhou still applies with the BoxMines.)

 

[Rizzo]

I'm quite sure I got those cannons approved prior to my hiatus. @Ametheliana reviewed the submission, I just forgot tof remove the wip tag at the bottom

 

[META_mahn]

Yes, but you didn't get the C9 edition approved.

 

[Rizzo]

I don't know what that means. Are you referring to Zack putting 4 SRGC's on a turret assembly?

 

[META_mahn]

Yeah, he stuck 3 SHIVAs onto a turret assembly and called it a day. Since it's a sub-article I'll entertain it and say it'll have to use a bit of approval.

 

[Zack]

- Requires Prose: Looks like I did miss the prose in a few sections and that has been added in. It also looks like the wrong sections were marked for needing prose, and other sections were overlooked and not marked when they should have been. I'm going by the Starship Template https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=templates:starship for this so the ship should be good to go here now.

- General topic sentence: Any bigger and its basically the about section. A one to two sentence short description is exactly what is called for in the template.

- Needed or Useful: USO doesn't have a lot of large ship designs. I think just the norse carriers and a few large freighters that were purchased. Since we can't just use small ships for everything we do need to put together a large ship design at some point. Since only Tier 15 ships can carry Tier 15 shields its kinda manditory.

- Overpowered: I mean, we're not calculating mass here. NTSE before has made the case explicitly that mass doesn't matter in regards to the C5, but mass does somehow matter here? It feels like you're just making stuff up to support how you feel without any basis for saying it. Either way, a quick size check and you can see that just about any way you cut it the C9 outmasses T14 ships.



And why are we getting bent out of shape by being able to operate after being cut in half? Even Wes has said that this isn't something that should hold up approval.

Are there too many weapons on here? Show me some math, or give me a comparison to another ship, or provide some metric for what too many weapons is. Honestly, I didn't even do math for this one I just fit the weapons where I could and put in what looked good. I would be surprised if this ship ends up having any more firepower than a Sharie or a Primus though after including their fighter wings and them being a tier smaller.

- Stuff Submitted Seperately: The NTSE is moving at a glacial pace, and the C8 and C9 are in RP supposed to have been designed within a few weeks of eachother. I'm perfectly OK with getting this reviewed now and waiting on the C8 approval before final approval.

Also, looks like the gravity cannon is approved.

- Standard Nomenclature: Most everything is repackaged versions of other things. Rather than a gun, engine, power plant, etc, the components are like small buildings that use a lot of other parts so they wouldn't have their own part number.


Electronics Box: This isn't even up for approval?

Box Mine: Also not up for approval? This was approved a while ago.

Launch Shell: >.> I guess... I'll say they open within 1.2 seconds.

 

[META_mahn]

1. Nope. Every section requires prose. It's stated in Style Guide 1c. It's very uncommonly cited, but Wes says he enforces it to some extent so I guess I'll start enforcing it too.
2. Wouldn't hurt to make it a little longer.
3. Yes, but I thought the whole thing about USO is that they're a small and somewhat weak backwater faction. Large ships are the symbol of a powerhouse in SARP. USO is not a powerhouse.
4. I'm trying to use this to help you get the C9 canon in some form, Zack, because Tier 15 dreadnoughts are ships that only the strongest factions can field. I fully intend on keeping this precedent. We're not even clear on how USO can house a C8. It almost went bankrupt from building two carriers, how do you think it'll be able to build even one of these?
5. See, I have a fair bit of justification:
   1. Say you fight one of these. You shoot at it, it splits in half. Then both halves, Tier 14 per half, start shooting again after the boxes recalculate. Now instead of fighting one single Tier 15, you're fighting 2 Tier 14 ships. And you split both of those, that's 4 Tier 13s, 8 Tier 12s, 16 Tier 11s, all the way down until you've reached about 32 Tier 10s which is where splitting further causes destruction. It's simply a bit too powerful, as it creates a sort of artificial durability. Compared to a regular vessel, a ship that can function this way will have perhaps three or four times the durability of its listed DR.
6. Actually, no. There are not too many weapons. It fits just around the 8 on-tier guideline. A smidge over but I'm willing to let it slide because SHIVAs are fat and slow and UUUUUUURRRRRGGGGGG and I've re-simulated the 8x Touhou Machine Guns and they're fine.
   1. Addendum: I'd like to have the C8 done first. Because the C8 laser facilities need approval there.
   2. Addendum 2: If we end up having to nerf-bat the C9 because it's simply too powerful for what USO can field, we'll have to refer back to this.
7. At least give it like an assembly number or something. (cmon, humor me.)

 

[META_mahn]

I'm posting my proper math behind the "ship-split is OP" thing.

Let's take a C9 into our lab. Let's also take an Izanagi into our lab. Let's also spawn ourselves a Tier 99 +10 Hanako Yui's Blade of Death. One tap against anything is enough to obliterate it via slicing it in two as the fabric of the universe disjoins. I get to spawn one in because as an NTSE it's what we use to discard rejected submissions.

/give META_mahn CheatSword 1

Alright, we have it now. Let's do science. First, we use it against the Izanagi. We hit the Izanagi once, it goes boom. Look at all the dead Nekos. You monster. Let's now hit the C9. This is where things get interesting since our theoretical weapon hits the C9...and kills it. But it doesn't. Because now there are two Tier 14 ships, both split from the C9's original Tier 15. Already this means the C9 can withstand an attack even the most powerful ship in the setting cannot, and can still be functional. But, I digress. Let's keep cutting, shall we?

We cut both halves of the C9, making 4 Tier 13 ships. We cut, more and more, until we end up with the 30-odd Tier 10s. Now our instant blade of death one-shots each chunk. However, at this point, we have used our weapon 61 times. The C9 has now taken 61 hits from something that one-shots an Izanagi -- and it has survived.

Let's use a more realistic weapon now because no one comes for dumb theoreticals. "B-b-b-b-b-b-but my calculaaaaatioooooooo-" SHUT.

Let's rewind time to before we spawned in the Cheat Sword. This time we'll spawn in our friendly little battleship -- the Sharie! Say hello to my personal Sharie, I use it frequently for DR testing. Her name is Sasha. Isn't she beautiful. Wait, is that a scuff mark-

Now let's perform science -- first, to blow up an Izanagi. Disregard the blood on my clothes. We first line up a shot with our ASA, and hit the Izanagi, depleting half its barrier. In two more similar hits, the Izanagi is dead. The Izanagi has tanked a total of three hits. Next we put the C9 in front. Once again, we fire our ASA, this time destroying the C9 in the same three hits. But wait, what's this? A "potentially lethal blow" simply caused the C9 to break apart? And now it's in multiple still-active pieces? Well, we can't just let these six Tier 13 pieces of C9 sit around, can we? So, let's shoot it again...and maybe vaporize half. The other half is fine, so let's drive Sasha around, line her up perfectly, and vaporize the other half. Here, we can see that the C9 has tanked two more hits than the Izanagi could.

But wait! It wasn't the ideal scenario at all! That's right, because we went from the most ideal scenario, to a somewhat idealistic scenario. Because the worst case scenario for a C9 is if it gets hit by three Tier 15 area attacks. This makes it tank the same amount of hits as our Izanagi over there. Completely fine mind you, but the fact this is the worst case scenario for its defense is, well...not good. Perhaps a little...unbalanced.

Edit: In theory, you could even rotate the T13 chunks with shield modules on them to project their T15 shield to protect them from certain death. This lets the C9 tank an additional 4 to perhaps even 12 hits, putting it at being able to tank 6 to 14 more hits than the Izanagi, 3-5.6666 repeating times more hits.

send help this is the dumbest theorypost i have ever made on sarp

 

[Rizzo]

Just because the sections are functional after being severed doesn't mean they're armed. It's not like you are saying, where these fragments are dangerous, or even necessary to destroy. If you split the vessel 30 ways it will still have the same number of weapons and engines collectively. Individually most of these "tier 13 chunks" will be completely useless, unable to move or fire since x number of weapons are now divided 30 ways and most would probably be destroyedin the process. With respect, you might be over thinking this.

 

[Alex Hart]

Most of those fragments would be armed, since the intention is to keep the separate parts and their weapons operational AFAIK.