DR Update Only Mindy Aetheric Pulse Cannon

[Rizzo]

Submission URL

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:weapons:ke-m2-w3001_mindy_aetheric_pulse_cannon

Submission Faction(s)

1. Yamatai (except Elysia)

Submission Terms

1. I agree

As part of the Mindy Accessories updates I've spotted this one that seems to suffer from the classic usage of the word mecha on SARP. Mecha at one time referred to what is now called Power Armor.
The conversion from DRv2 to 3 was imperfect but supports the conversion of this weapon to T7-8, Light to Medium Anti-mecha, however the only other weapon that can do this is the 50 and 20mm gauss cannon which tops out at T7. Having been described as "compact" we can draw the conclusion that it's per-shot damage cannot possibly be the same as a big gun like the 50mm gauss bazooka.

There is another weapon that is comparable in performance. The infamous Aether Beam Saber Rifle. It deals T4 rapid fire aether damage. So we might draw the conclusion that it should be a T4 weapon, but that wouldn't make sense as the shoulder Scalar machinegun deals T4 damage at 18 rounds per second. Matching the damage tier of that weapon would effectively neuter this item and that just won't do! Why use aether when scalar is cleaner and safer to use? For more damage downrange obviously!

So with these things considered, that the words mecha and PA have at one time been synonymous, the impact on the other accessories, and the size/scale of the weapon it is my conclusion that the role this weapon was intended for fits perfectly within the ASBR's optimal performance range. Tier 5, Medium anti-armor. The ASBR and Aether SMG support this assessment, however there is more to it than simply damage considerations.

It is listed that this weapon this weapon has immensely diminished performance in atmosphere due to its compact size. As a result it has an atmospheric range of only 10 meters, a little over 30 feet.
The perceived intention seems to have been to force it to be a space only weapon. This seems almost too restrictive, but in the spirit of the original authors intention I have increased that to only 1 kilometer which is still incredibly short compared to the ASBR's 473,177km.

 

[Wes]

I think it would help a lot if we had art for this weapon that shows it's not the Predator's little shoulder shooter but a big bazooka looking weapon every bit as large as the railgun that is it's main alternative. At least that's how I (its creator) envisioned it. Because there's no size or visual info, it's easy for people to get widely different impressions of it.

 

[Fred]

Okay, well, since I've been brought in to chirp in and that the ensuing explanations have been elucidating, here's my renewed take on the matter.

I think the article to be converted is badly written. It doesn't convey the might of the weapon. It could use improvement.

I believe both these weapons:

Ke-M2-W3001 Shoulder-Mounted Aetheric Pulse Cannon on Star Army Space Roleplay

wiki.stararmy.com

Ke-M2-W2905 Shoulder-Fired 50mm Gauss Cannon on Star Army Space Roleplay

wiki.stararmy.com

...stand shoulder-to-shoulder - if you'll pardon the pun. Given that they were initially designed first for the Mindy's shoulders mounts, I think they should be Heavy Anti-Armor (Tier 6) weapons, and not Light Anti-Mecha (Tier 7). I respect the history Raz and Ametheliana have alluded to, and I believe the high fire-rate of these weapons would still land them in the same cinematic space.

My leaning towards Tier 6, rather than 7, is motivated by this weapon:

Ke-M6-W3000 50mm Gauss Bazooka on Star Army Space Roleplay

wiki.stararmy.com

Semi-automatic, and therefore slower firing, the Gauss Bazooka - a massive weapon that has to be held by hand by the power armor. Every squeeze of the trigger is momentous and my history (and bias) lies with it: the weapon that killed the Umbral overlord Mefpralphra.

I won't lose any sleep over the Aetheric Pulse Cannon being Tier 7, but if I agree, I agree to obsoleting by comparison the Gauss Bazooka, and that's not something I really want to do.

 

[raz]

I think it would help a lot if we had art for this weapon that shows it's not the Predator's little shoulder shooter but a big bazooka looking weapon every bit as large as the railgun that is it's main alternative.

Even if the Predator's Plasma Caster inspired it, the Aetheric Pulse Cannon could still be Tier 7 or 8. That little thing can blow holes in armored bulkheads. Though I did imagine the Star Army's as larger than that nonetheless.

 

[Rizzo]

Even if the Predator's Plasma Caster inspired it, the Aetheric Pulse Cannon could still be Tier 7 or 8. That little thing can blow holes in armored bulkheads. Though I did imagine the Star Army's as larger than that nonetheless.

That video you just linked… That’s tier 5

 

[Soban]

I agree that the predator weapon compilation (which is awesome) would reflect about a tier 4-5 weapon.

 

[Ametheliana]

How are boulder sized holes in factory/ship bulkheads on the same scale as medium armor? Bulkheads are about the 2 thicker than the listed tier 5 armor and also don't have the squishy pilot inside.

Important edit: Wes also said these are much bigger than that example, so we should treat them as such moving forward!

 

[raz]

Those holes straight through thick steel plating look far more powerful than Tier 4 or 5. But Wes said it wasn't based on the Predator's plasma caster. But even if the Aetheric Pulse Cannon were based on it, something that small could justifiably be that powerful.

 

[Fred]

I'll admit I've been scratching my head at this lack of consencus at what kind of damage the Predator's plasma caster did, since Wes had mentioned that his intended weapon was meant to be larger anyways. "Why are they saying that? Didn't Wes mention he intended bigger?"

A small unrelated comment on armor:
To me, those are unarmored metal support structures. Sure, thick and sturdy stuff, but those are hardly armored bulkheads. They're just bulkheads. The video, as cool as it is, doesn't show me that the weapon does any more good than killing humans... so it might be Tier 2-3, which is more in the range of the NSP.

I don't think a metal girder, however thick, equals armor on a volume-per-volume basis. Armor, especially modern manufactured armor, bears quality and strength molten metal poured and cast into a mold simply doesn't.

If I had to present a Light Anti-Mecha weapon, I'd use this clip:

Using the anti-materiel rifle, the first shot had probably already done most of the job. The second was just making sure, and it just happened to hit someplace explosive on top of that.

 

[raz]

I'll admit I've been scratching my head at this lack of consencus at what kind of damage the Predator's plasma caster did, since Wes had mentioned that his intended weapon was meant to be larger anyways. "Why are they saying that? Didn't Wes mention he intended bigger?"

Yeah. I'm not sure where the continued "nuh uuuh" is coming from. Pretty irrelevant. This proposal to nerf the Aether Pulse Cannon has essentially been turned down.

Waiting on staff to clarify if it should be 7 or 8.

 

[Rizzo]

View attachment 22287

Those holes straight through thick steel plating look far more powerful than Tier 4 or 5. But Wes said it wasn't based on the Predator's plasma caster. But even if the Aetheric Pulse Cannon were based on it, something that small could justifiably be that powerful.

I’m down with it doing that kind of explosive damage. Really, it’s what I’ve been saying, I really don’t wanna Nerf it. It’s just that that is not what tier 7 and 8 would look like.

Consider, please;
Tier 3 would be a browning machine gun. Have you ever seen what that gun does to steel plating? What it does to people is horrifying. The Barrett .50 is specifically used by the real life military for busting engine blocks beyond repair. That is what tier 3 can do. Tier 4 is twice as powerful as 3 and tier 5 is twice as powerful as tier 4.

These numbers represent scale. That’s why I keep saying that tier 7 and 8 are tank cannons. Tier 8 weapons would have something like 8 times the destructive potential per shot compared to a tier 5 weapon. Now imagine you can rapid fire that sucker. Hit another Mindy with that one time at tier 8 and you’re leaving a very large crater where they once stood, does that sound like a small aetheric pulse? That’s artillery!

Tier 8 weapons can’t be carried by a Mindy, they are the size of a Mindy plus a few feet. The Mindy 20 and 50mm cannons certainly don’t explode the entire room when you land a shot, so why are they tier 7? Tier 7, 8, and 9 are clearly more than artillery item but it could be explained if the gauss cannons are as long as the Mindy is tall and we’re using space magic.

At a certain point, it’s hard to suspend disbelief. If we want the effect that we just saw in the video of predators gun tearing up the place, that’s a T5. Yes, if you mag dump someone with it you can crack Tier 8 targets with it Because getting pelted with a stream of aether pulses at tier 5 is a guaranteed career ender.

T6 and now we’re just exploding the room. That would be a heavy weapon and wouldn’t really be the doom parrot we see in predator because now we’re making Honda Civics explode with a single shot. This is what mini missiles do. At least it’s not artillery from a main battle tank the size of a lunchbox.

Let’s not be ridiculous here, the only people who really want an Uber weapon that delivers artillery scale damage at full auto speed on a suit of armor 4 1/2 to 6 feet tall is a power gamer.

 

[raz]

A Mindy can mount the 50mm Gauss Cannon on its shoulder. It is described as 4 feet long and Tier 7.

This is a real life 50mm gun:

This is a Mindy 2 with two shoulder-mounted weapons:

The bore of those guns in the image above could ostensibly be the 4-foot long 50mm Gauss Cannons (Tier 7). They could ostensibly be the Aether Pulse Cannon (Tier 7 or 8), too. The image hasn't been cropped down and had those guns used by any specific article like the Daisy's rifle was, so they simply serve as a visual representation of what shoulder mounted cannons of any flavor look like on a Mindy. Sci-fi weapons are compact compared to real world examples.

This is a Mindy 1H with two "Rapid Fire Heavy Beam Cannons" (Tier 8, clearly longer than the 4 foot 50mm Gauss Cannon):

I'm not sure what the problem is with keeping the Aether Pulse Cannon at Tier 7 or 8 is. Especially when Wes has posted here to say the current conversion is accurate. It's just an aether-powered alternative to the other solid munitions shoulder cannons in the Mindy arsenal. That's what it's been for years, and is present in some of the site's best roleplay at that power level.

This effort to mess with the Aether Pulse Cannon's established power level is strange and nonsensical.

 

[Rizzo]

Because it’s a rapid fire weapon and that’s how the new damage rating works. Time to adapt and do a little bit of math. Furthermore, the damage rating was never officially changed to 7 or 8, so we’re not keeping anything the same or changing it by role-play standards.

Read the conversion rules that I quoted in this thread or your arguments are in invalid. And quit with me little insults. It’s not nonsensical to me because I know how to do math and read at a K-12 level.

 

[Wes]

Don't get personal over something as minuscule as a number for optional stats on an obscure roleplaying site. Raz wants Tier 7, Rizzo wants Tier 5, Fred says Tier 6, I'm going to compromise and rule that it's Tier 6.

My logic:

• This is still higher than the Mindy's tier and really powerful
• There's actual starship turrets that are only Tier 5 (the ones on the Chiaki)
• The AA guns on the Resurgence are Tier 7 and they're a lot bigger than the Mindy gun.
• Tier 6 is one higher than the Mindy Aether Saber's saber mode.
• I took the rate of fire into consideration.

Basically, Tier 6 is still really powerful and that's where this weapon seems to sit compared to other armor-portable and similar size aether weapons.

 

[Ametheliana]

Okay, I understand this is your decision about the main conversion, but I will have it deal extra damage (between tier 7 and 8) while fielded by the Kirie or any equivalently large armors. I'll either make this a wiki edit myself and, at worst, it will be a change done for when it is utilized on my plot and outside of it and would appreciate if the latter option is taken, that it is honored. I don't want to negate past RP by explaining away a sudden shift down two tiers and would not enjoy seeing one of my most veteran players have one of their mainstays nerfed in the process.

When the gauss cannons come under this type of unscrupulous scrutiny I'll hold to this, too.

 

[Rizzo]

I don't want to negate past RP by explaining away a sudden shift down two tiers and would not enjoy seeing one of my most veteran players have one of their mainstays nerfed in the process.

It’s changing nothing in RP unless you have literally been playing this as fully automatic artillery. I would love to see some examples of this being used in your RP. T7-8 is used on tanks so you must be describing a weapon that is firing aether pulses the size of a 100 gal propane tank rather than “small aetheric pulses.”

 

[Ametheliana]

For a GM, DR isn't really about size of the shots fired but the damage the enemies can take.

 

[Rizzo]

That’s curious, I was under the impression you didn’t want gamified rule systems in your RP but I welcome you with open arms. It has a lot to offer your game.

Suppose a character can only fire 1 “small aetheric pulse” for RP reasons what kind of damage would you narrate it doing to another Mindy?

 

[raz]

Raz wants Tier 7, Rizzo wants Tier 5, I'm going to compromise and rule that it's Tier 6.

I don’t really get why a compromise needs to be made on this. One of us has used this weapon in RP for years at the DR it has been presented at, and the other one simply wants a nerf to satisfy a headcanon about what DRs are supposed to be. It’s ridiculous that my RP (and that of others through the years) is being retconned by some player who has never even used the weapon in RP.

Kinda miffed that the best RP is getting the short end of the stick (again) for the sake of OOC bs driven by people who don’t even use the item in question.

 

[Rizzo]

It's for the Mindy, but the Thought Armors can use all Mindy accessories because they lack many of their own.

Dude, tier 6 is what the inventor of DRv3 suggested. I ask you again. Have you been portraying this weapon as a full auto howitzer?

 

[Wes]

It’s ridiculous that my RP (and that of others through the years) is being retconned by some player who has never even used the weapon in RP.

Nobody's RP is being retconned, that's completely and provably untrue.

Dude, tier 6 is what the inventor of DRv3 suggested. I ask you again. Have you been portraying this weapon as a full auto howitzer?

If you look back in the thread in Post 12, Fred suggested Tier 4, Light Anti-Armor.

Look everyone, I've done my job as admin and made the call on this already. I don't think any further discussion is helpful at this point so I'm going to close this thread.