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Approved Submission [Nepleslia] Sword/Hray Update

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FrostJaeger

Chief Parakeet
Banned Member
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What comes to mind right now regarding the weapons is that the damage section you're adding is supposed to actually be an entry under Primary Purpose. that's the way DRv3 was conceived to work. So, reading through the armament, there's a bit of redundancy in the headings.

Nowhere do I see any mentions of how tough the ships are (hull/armor/shield/sections and armor rating/damage capacity)
 
Don't the 4 teir 11 positron cannons use up all of the ships's available weapons under DRv3 making this way-over armed as it still has the tier 12 weapons, the missiles, ect?
 
In the conversions I've been running, I found that a lot actually turns up not fitting the "how many guns you can carry" guideline, especially if it happens to be relatively old (my Shlarvasseroth SMX flagship certainly doesn't x_x ). The guidelines was something Cadetnewb wanted, but I'm fairly willing to be flexible with them regarding old stuff. What I paid more attention on was the 'spirit' of what those weapons were intended to do, since cinematic impact was the thing I cared about when promoting this and how a lot of ships of that era (Sakura-class, YE 29, etc) tended to punch a lot over their weight.

I also have the bias of thinking stuff in SARP is overgunned and I know most people don't agree with me on that front, so, I try to curb my own inclinations. I figure "it's old stuff and I know not everything will end up lining exactly even, so, no sense being difficult and forcing Frost to go back to the drawing board, updated stats are better than no updated stats".

I would see where you'd come from if you would contest this. If you care about it, you can summon another mod to review this - I know I'm being intentionaly lax (for the above reasons), so if another mod feels differently I'd defer to them. There's also the QA on the part of the FM himself which hasn't come into play too.
 
I have zero faith that 'we are ignoring the DVR3 rules for older ships' is going to be fairly applied.

I would prefer the setting mods enforce their own rules, otherwise why even have an NTSE forum?
 
Zack said:
I have zero faith that 'we are ignoring the DVR3 rules for older ships' is going to be fairly applied.

I would prefer the setting mods enforce their own rules, otherwise why even have an NTSE forum?
Click to expand...
Maybe (maybe), just maybe... maybe we don't need limitations on how many guns a ship can have at all. For anything. Ever. Because it's arbitrary and silly.

But this isn't really the place to discuss that. To the DR thread!
 
Arbitrary sure, but at least it is fair.

The alternative is arbitrary and unfair, which I feel is worse.
 
First, this thread updates two submissions in one. A technicality, but enough to reject them. However, we'd be skipping the salient issue, so I'm overlooking that.

Looking at these two vessels, it's clear that there is no way to fit them within the "rule of thumb" weapon limitation scheme. Even loosely applied, these ships -- much like other Nepleslian warships, let alone others in the SARP galaxy -- completely fail to conform to that rule.

That means the v3 updates are unapprovable on their face. It also means if and when other old vessels are brought before the NTSE, applying the "rule of thumb" to them will cause either massive headaches or resounding rejections. Neither of those results is tolerable.

These are the options I believe exist:

1. We ignore the "rule of thumb" and allow the weapon totals to stand without limits. This is not a sustainable option, so I've discarded it.

2. Same as No. 1, but with a sunset as to how long the submission can remain as converted. I think this could be a viable solution, but it invites potential abuse in the meantime. Especially when it comes to PvP. Nor am I jazzed about having to offer it to everyone else.

3. Same as No. 1, but confine it to @Legix's plot. This would make it a functional exception to the rule of thumb, an exception I don't like but with which I could live. However, it takes only one upset PvP'er to bring the whole thing crashing down, so I don't endorse this.

4. Discard the new v3 stats, return to v2 and wait for the ship to be ICly replaced. This reminds me of No. 2, in which it's a game of time and invites abuse until then.

5. Force conformity to the rule of thumb, but allow the v2 stats for @Legix's plot. This is the ruling I like the most, but it means many weapons on these vessels are going to be for show, outside the plot. It also harshly goes against the spirit of v3, as it removes the "cinema" of the vessels. But it will maintain some fairness via the v2 stats, so it works for me.

6. Simply force conformity to the rule of thumb without any allowances. This is anathema to me and likely to everyone else. Fairness notwithstanding, this will reduce what's ICly usable in SARP, as art won't match and/or weapons won't make sense.

With these options in hand, I ask @FrostJaeger to speak on what he would prefer to do. I don't tie myself to his decision, but considering the circumstances, I'd like to hear it.

I have reviewed this submission in accordance with the Guide for Submission Reviewers.
 
If you want more straight conversions that fit...

The Sword is a Light Starship; that entitles it to 8x Light Anti-Starship weapons (Tier 10)
  • 4 Heavy Anti-Mecha Plasma Lances (worth 2)
    • Because of the concessions given to the weapon systems below, that's as powerful as I could make what I felt was the vessel's primary weapon. This said, these still pose a threat to ships of the same size (a focus on higher rate of fire, instead of penetrating power). I also feel it is apt considering the vessel's role as escort and smallcraft deterrent.
  • 2 Medium Anti-Starship Curbstomper Torpedo Launchers (worth 4)
    • This is the only weapon I can't adjust or downscale to 'fit', since it will be used on other ships as well. I am not reluctant to see it pay full cost for multiple launchers, considering how there's likely plenty enough torpedoes to fire frequently during any single fights. The power of the torpedoes are also extremely significant for a vessel of this size.
  • 16 Heavy Anti-Armor Vulcan Turrets (worth 2)
    • The description of the weapon alludes to it being an upscaled version of the HPAR. So, I've made it only slightly more powerful than the weapon itself.
This said, the Sword could be argued to be big enough to be a Medium Starship. Also, while being a military vessel it still only has double-sided barrier protection. I would be willing to bargain to make that worth one or two extra Tier 10 weapons on account of that (8x tier 10 weapons is half of what a Medium Starship would get, I find that compromise reasonable and I'd use that to make the Plasma Lances 'Light Anti-Starship')
_____________________________________________________________

The HRay is stated to be a Light Starship in the article. I think it's main body easily makes it a Medium Starship, but the tail length and the looks of it don't make me feel it qualifies to be a Heavy Starship. So, eight Tier 11 weapons.

  • 1 Heavy Anti-Starship Aether Cannon (Worth 2)
    • So far as I can tell, this weapon doesn't have the prominence the main gun of the Plumeria displays, so, I compare it more to the Yui-type aether weapons.
  • 4 Heavy Anti-Mecha Positron Autocannons (Worth 2)
    • The Positron weapons the HRay possesses aren't the same ones the Plumeria has. They do most of their hurt on starships through high rate of fire, while still being lethal (as intended) on smaller targets.
  • 2 Medium Anti-Starship Torpedo Launchers (Worth 2)
    • In my mind, same weapon system as above. My feeling is that it'd be modernized to fit with the ammunition in use for smaller warships, making it share the same systems as the Sword.
  • Medium Anti-Mecha Dual Plasma Turrets x12 (worth 2)
    • Fewer turrets allowed me to spend the last quarter in making them a marked improvement on the vulcan cannons. Note that their 'dual' status is a Rate-of-Fire consideration.
The HRay only has conformal shielding (single-barrier, no facing, so actually weaker shields than the Sword). Given that, I'd be open to a tradeoff to make the Positron Autocannons to be act as Light Anti-Starship on single-shot, and Heavy Anti-Mecha on its rapid-fire (personally, the rapid-fire shots still end up causing more potential damage, but the caveat given to the single shot allows the HRay to more substancially hurt targets above its weight)

* * *

That's how I'd make them all fit.
Note that this means that certain weapons, such as 'plasma lances', don't end up having a fixed damage per weapon, but rather a damage output which would be variable depending on where it is mounted. They graduate from being a 'weapon' to being a 'weapon type'; just like Aether Shock Arrays are for Yamatai.
 
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Doshii Jun said:
First, this thread updates two submissions in one. A technicality, but enough to reject them. However, we'd be skipping the salient issue, so I'm overlooking that.

Looking at these two vessels, it's clear that there is no way to fit them within the "rule of thumb" weapon limitation scheme. Even loosely applied, these ships -- much like other Nepleslian warships, let alone others in the SARP galaxy -- completely fail to conform to that rule.

That means the v3 updates are unapprovable on their face. It also means if and when other old vessels are brought before the NTSE, applying the "rule of thumb" to them will cause either massive headaches or resounding rejections. Neither of those results is tolerable.

These are the options I believe exist:

1. We ignore the "rule of thumb" and allow the weapon totals to stand without limits. This is not a sustainable option, so I've discarded it.

2. Same as No. 1, but with a sunset as to how long the submission can remain as converted. I think this could be a viable solution, but it invites potential abuse in the meantime. Especially when it comes to PvP. Nor am I jazzed about having to offer it to everyone else.

3. Same as No. 1, but confine it to @Legix's plot. This would make it a functional exception to the rule of thumb, an exception I don't like but with which I could live. However, it takes only one upset PvP'er to bring the whole thing crashing down, so I don't endorse this.

4. Discard the new v3 stats, return to v2 and wait for the ship to be ICly replaced. This reminds me of No. 2, in which it's a game of time and invites abuse until then.

5. Force conformity to the rule of thumb, but allow the v2 stats for @Legix's plot. This is the ruling I like the most, but it means many weapons on these vessels are going to be for show, outside the plot. It also harshly goes against the spirit of v3, as it removes the "cinema" of the vessels. But it will maintain some fairness via the v2 stats, so it works for me.

6. Simply force conformity to the rule of thumb without any allowances. This is anathema to me and likely to everyone else. Fairness notwithstanding, this will reduce what's ICly usable in SARP, as art won't match and/or weapons won't make sense.

With these options in hand, I ask @FrostJaeger to speak on what he would prefer to do. I don't tie myself to his decision, but considering the circumstances, I'd like to hear it.

I have reviewed this submission in accordance with the Guide for Submission Reviewers.
Click to expand...

Having done quite a bit of number-crunching yesterday and given @Fred's helpful responses both here and in chat, I've decided that I'm going to go with Option #6 - for I'm fairly certain that I've managed to work out a system that converts practically every single currently-used Nepleslian military vessel to DRv3 while preserving their current armaments, as detailed on this monstrosity of a wiki page.

Edit: @Gunhand4171, would you mind looking at the wiki page I linked above as well?
 
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Wow, this is a lot of work. x_x
I skimmed through most of it, so, I don't know how well it adhere's to the "8 equal tier weapon" rule of thumb. But considering how we apparently can't stray too much away from it without cries of "unfair", it's probably a good plan to try to adhere to it.
I'm afraid I cannot do a blanket overview of the wiki page all in one go. I don't suggest you make Gunhand go through a similar ordeal - I honestly don't think that information-dense page can be all taken in one go.
If I get more focus on any one case, I can better give advice on it. For instance, focus on the HRay allowed me to notice it was the wrong size, which allowed it to be stronger.

This said, I don't think Doshii's option 6 is as much anathema as it's feared to be. For instance, the Sword still seems plenty able to perform its job. The HRay seems capable of competing with the Plumeria, it just employs a different methodology to do it.
 
Tbh V3 is going to need a ton of work from all factions... because the rule of limitations needs to be enforced evenly.
 
As far as I've seen/been able to read so far, the update seems to be complying to the rules so far. But there's a lot of information here to pick out and verify. Definitely did make a good joke around the table that the Nep ships are mostly huge AF.
 
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