A response to NTSE violations.

[Rizzo]

As we all know, wiki articles are considered the source of truth in the setting. They establish hard canon. For years, these wiki articles have been peer reviewed and passed by staff who follow guidelines and rules to make sure articles fit the setting fairly. This is important as they affect everyone.

Unfortunately, there have been unauthorized edits made by people who do not understand how DRv3 works and are doing this without consulting either the creators of the articles OR submitting them to be reviewed! This very selfish action threatens to compromise the validity and trustworthiness of our wiki articles.

While I am sure staff will figure this situation out and correct it in due time there is a chance that they will not if it is not talked about and addressed by the community. Naturally, the community is more interested in role-play and that is not wrong, after all this is what SARP is for.

As a former NTSE moderator and a game master, I am driven to work in the interest of my players to protect them from the fallout of these un-approvable updates. I will be creating a new optional rule set to be used by members of the community who value SARP as a shared setting. I fully expect this decision to bother the power gamers out there who have established that they are not interested in learning how DRv3 actually works. Players who enjoy accuracy of information will definitely find this useful.

Because I value community input I’m calling out to other game masters and players for opinions, ideas, and feedback. My intention is to create a peer reviewed list of SARP weapons that reflect the correct information free from the influences of people who do not value community interests and undermine the NTSE. If you got this far, thank you for spending your time to read this.

 

[Wes]

I've requested that staff members fix "unresolved" DR ratings (where there's a FIXME) as they're found in advance to avoid arguments like there was the other day. I'm not impressed by your assertions that my staff don't "value community interests" or that they don't know how damage rating stats work. Ametheliana is probably the heaviest user of DR overall, she's the one who's been helping me get these updates done and is acting on my behalf.

If you have an issue with a listed DR rating you can bring it up in that article's thread, preferably with a clear explanation of why the rating should be changed and the staff will consider an update.

Furthermore DR rating changes cannot affect IC canon in any way because they're OOC stats, not part of the lore. Canon refers to IC facts (what things are in the universe) and history (what events happened).

 

[Fred]

You can wrestle with pigs. You might even win.

But you will get dirty.

All that to say that this should have been a forum conversation to Wes and other concerned parties in the NTSE process. Wes could then have focused on verifications and confirmations... and then reassured you on how things stood. Effect adjustment on what was lacking.

Instead, you forced him to defend his Staff. Which he should do, especially if they did things he asked.

I thought, when the topic came up on Discord, many suggested you go for private conversations, myself included.

Rizzo, you instead chose to go for more public mudslinging. Deserved or not, it's not a good look... and you did not help your case.

I suggest you change your approach. Passion is great. Self-righteous zeal, somewhat less. These topics are really not worth the amount of vitriol aired.

Take a step back, and focus your efforts on fun. Perhaps you've forgotten. I'm sure you will gain by reacquainting yourself.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

by people who do not understand how DRv3 works

The thing is and part of the problem I'm seeing the past week+ is the hard line drawn and those that stand on one side who are downright militant about DRv3, and those who take the stance that RP trumps all. (And the answer should be somewhere in between Ic and OOC balance) And btw everyone decides they know best these day how the damn system works best and use that against each other or use it only when it is fit for them or to be used against someone else.

But here we are. In a community where we argue more than we write.

This most recent issue was clearly not an accident and was related to arguments that should never have happened but did because we have created a culture in this site of never letting anything go, ever.

And I don't mean not letting an argument go. I mean letting anything go. It should have never gotten to a point in this community where we need to argue or defend our creations but at most have some simple janitorial work to keep the articles tidy. We keep adding things to the submission process and bloating it and holding onto old and outdated systems that haven't been used for what they were designed for in decades. Drv3 should be a guideline we use to reference and set a general standard for what you can expect to find in sizes and what the kind of average damage and damage negation you might find and that's pretty much all it should be.

Instead, it is used to attack other people, belittle or block their contributions to the site, or to use situationally when it fits some people's preferences but not others. We have old timers who will throw a hissy fit if you want to do something with a planet nobody has touched in like 15 years or replace an item from 2007. And newer players who want to make their own place in the setting but have to jump through hoops or are too discouraged to even try due to the atmosphere we have created.

It should not matter what a gun does OOC and should only matter IC and the stats should be more a generalization and a guideline and not something to brow beat others with or go to war over if it doesn't make sense. This most recent string of problems happened because we flip flop between absolute enforcement and lax standards when it suits some people and we either need to go all in or revisit how and why we use DRv3 and the entire conversation should have been:

"Damn this is pretty high damage. Should it be lowered?"

"Yeah, looking at it now that makes/doesnt make sense."

Instead we got cats in a bag with claws out while it tumbles down the stairs.

We (the entire community) let things get this way. We allowed it to happen and keep happening and it is a bad look for any new player to come in and have the drive to write and create but instead see that and lose all that drive. This is a writing community not a Senate floor and we need to lower the stakes and start shifting back into the mindset that this is a place we go to write and RP and create together and nothing more. Not a place to draw lines or collect things to sit on. Not a place to belittle or argue with others. You all need to stop treating this place like it has actual stakes and more like it is just a place to go and write about catgirls in tight clothes but cant stop yourselves from ruining it over the course of decades with bloat, cliques, factional bias, bloated systems, paperwork, and OOC bickering and never connect the dots that it's a combination of all of that and the environment it has created and fostered that is why we are at an all time low of new players.

Spoiler

I personally think we need to revisit the entire submission process. No RP requirements, no DRv3 absolutism or buildup brow beating. Just let people create again with simple guidelines and a simple checklist and not a bar room brawl, belittling of peoples contributions, gatekeeping or gaslighting, or arguing until a thread locks.

 

[Rizzo]

I appreciate your trust in staff, Wes. I never named names and didn’t want to go as far as ‘mud-slinging’ and for that I apologize.

Fred, you are correct. I have forgotten how to have fun on SARP. However, I HAVE gone to DM’s but to no avail. I’m sorry, I really have few other options. As one of the biggest flag wavers for the NTSE I am seeing a big issue and this is meant to be a stop-gap measure to protect my plot and players.

Please don’t misunderstand, I am still 100% on board supporting the NTSE and maintaining its integrity. It’s not beyond hope, but these NTSE bypassed edits are happening too quickly for me or anyone to address in the normal process.
The first step to healing a cut is to stop the bleeding. This is a band-aid. It’s like I said, I’m sure staff will figure this out. In the meantime, this is my best solution to the problem presented.

I also agree with Char. The process needs improvement. A streamlining would help.

 

[Soban]

But here we are. In a community where we argue more than we write.

This most recent issue was clearly not an accident and was related to arguments that should never have happened but did because we have created a culture in this site of never letting anything go, ever.

And I don't mean not letting an argument go. I mean letting anything go.

....

Instead, it is used to attack other people, belittle or block their contributions to the site, or to use situationally when it fits some people's preferences but not others. We have old timers who will throw a hissy fit if you want to do something with a planet nobody has touched in like 15 years or replace an item from 2007. And newer players who want to make their own place in the setting but have to jump through hoops or are too discouraged to even try due to the atmosphere we have created.

It should not matter what a gun does OOC and should only matter IC and the stats should be more a generalization and a guideline and not something to brow beat others with or go to war over if it doesn't make sense. This most recent string of problems happened because we flip flop between absolute enforcement and lax standards when it suits some people and we either need to go all in or revisit how and why we use DRv3 and the entire conversation should have been:

"Damn this is pretty high damage. Should it be lowered?"

"Yeah, looking at it now that makes/doesnt make sense."

Instead we got cats in a bag with claws out while it tumbles down the stairs.

We (the entire community) let things get this way. We allowed it to happen and keep happening and it is a bad look for any new player to come in and have the drive to write and create but instead see that and lose all that drive. This is a writing community not a Senate floor and we need to lower the stakes and start shifting back into the mindset that this is a place we go to write and RP and create together and nothing more. Not a place to draw lines or collect things to sit on. Not a place to belittle or argue with others. You all need to stop treating this place like it has actual stakes and more like it is just a place to go and write about catgirls in tight clothes but cant stop yourselves from ruining it over the course of decades with bloat, cliques, factional bias, bloated systems, paperwork, and OOC bickering and never connect the dots that it's a combination of all of that and the environment it has created and fostered that is why we are at an all time low of new players.

Seconded.

We have a broken community, Wes might keep SARP life support on shear power of momentum. (It's been his hobby for over twenty years now, and I don't think that's going to change.) But looking around, I can't help but feel like we are indeed on life support rather than being a living, vibrant, community. There are possible solutions, some have even been voiced here on this thread. However, I don't think the solutions address the real problem, us.

We have developed a spirit and a reputation of being bickering bureaucratic jerks who kinda aren't fun to play with as a group. Perhaps if you are part of one clique or another you have fun in it, but the cliques don't work well together, interfering rather than supporting each other.

Rule changes don't fix the heart and the heart is the source of our problems. I don't know how to fix anyone else or the community. I'm going to try to fix myself, and that might work and it might not, it might not matter because I've got other things I'm kinda committed to right now and one person isn't the community as a whole.

We need to remember that we are coming together as a community of interest. We all enjoy roleplaying in general and the SARP setting in specific.

SARP is a long runner. We've been here twenty years and. god willing, we will be here at least twenty more. Our wiki is constantly under construction and modification. There are countless places where things don't add up one way or another. There are times when it seems that characters who are at one place appear somewhere else at the same time. There are times when weapon or ship descriptions don't match or even contradict other descriptions. The list is endless. This phenomenon of having stuff messed up like this isn't unique to SARP. Star Wars faces a similar issue today and in it's legends continuity. Authors were unorganized, didn't communicate, contradicted each other, and more. I dare anyone to make the cannon of Star Trek to make sense without invoking alternate universes that episodes and sometimes entire series take place in (not counting the alternate universes in the show). How most of these long runners manage this chaotic mess is by invoking 'broad strokes' where something is still canon but the exact details are subject to a big ball of wibbly wobbly time-y wimey stuff. In short, don't sweat the small stuff.

When we do have problems, we need to learn to let things go and not take criticism personally. We should also take care to not demean or insult each other. If there is a point of disagreement, then we should talk about the point of disagreement not each other.

There is probably more that can be said, but let me leave you with a parting thought from one of the most important books about how to influence people,

When “Two Gun” Crowley was captured, Police Commissioner E. P. Mulrooney declared that the two-gun desperado was one of the most dangerous criminals ever encountered in the history of New York. “He will kill,” said the Commissioner, “at the drop of a feather.”

But how did “Two Gun” Crowley regard himself? We know, because while the police were firing into his apartment, he wrote a letter addressed “To whom it may concern, ” and, as he wrote, the blood flowing from his wounds left a crimson trail on the paper. In this letter Crowley said, “Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one—one that would do nobody any harm.”

A short time before this, Crowley had been having a necking party with his girlfriend on a country road out on Long Island. Suddenly a policeman walked up to the car and said, “Let me see your license.” Without saying a word, Crowley drew his gun and cut the policeman down with a shower of lead. As the dying officer fell, Crowley leaped out of the car, grabbed the officer’s revolver, and fired another bullet into the prostrate body. And that was the killer who said, “Under my coat is a weary heart, but a kind one—one that
would do nobody any harm.’

Crowley was sentenced to the electric chair. When he arrived at the death house in Sing Sing, did he say, “This is what I get for killing people”? No, he said, “This is what I get for defending myself.”

...

Criticism is futile because it puts a person on the defensive and usually makes him strive to justify himself. Criticism is dangerous, because it wounds a person’s precious pride, hurts his sense of importance, and arouses resentment ... The resentment that criticism engenders can demoralize employees, family members and friends, and still not correct the situation that has been condemned. ... If you and I want to stir up a resentment tomorrow that may rankle across the decades and endure until death, just let us indulge in a little stinging criticism, no matter how certain we are that it is justified. When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic. We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bristling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity.

...

Instead of condemning people, let’s try to understand them. Let’s try to figure out why they do what they do. That’s a lot more profitable and intriguing than criticism, and it breeds sympathy, tolerance and kindness.

"Instead of condemning people, let’s try to understand them. Let’s try to figure out why they do what they do. That’s a lot more profitable and intriguing than criticism, and it breeds sympathy, tolerance and kindness." Good words we should all remember.

 

[raz]

Thanks for the clairificaiton, Wes. I kinda disagree that “stats don’t impact canon” because we use stats to describe comparative power levels and people make decisions in-character based on those stats. But it’s not really important to hash out this disagreement because, yeah, the actual RP is what matters.

But here we are. In a community where we argue more than we write.

That’s not true for all of us. Some members have a constant flow of RP and others, yes, will go for a month or two with one IC post while dipping into every OOC topic to speak their mind. Go ahead and do a forum search and you’ll see who is just here to argue and who does tons of RP.

The solution is simply for those people to RP more. Star Army is a great RP site for those of us who write stories here.

 

[Rizzo]

I’ve been thinking about that statement, @Charmaylarg Dufrain.

"Instead of condemning people, let’s try to understand them. Let’s try to figure out why they do what they do. That’s a lot more profitable and intriguing than criticism, and it breeds sympathy, tolerance and kindness."

I’m very much open to suggestions and critique. I don’t want anger and resentment to keep coming around and it’s making this fun hobby into a chore. Naturally maintaining SARP is not easy and needs to be done in order to keep it alive so I would like to help that process rather than hinder it. My stance is coming from a “fairness” point of view. How can we keep the setting fair and fun for all who play, easy to understand and work with, and promote unity?

 

[Wes]

I took a few minutes to review the recent updates and they all seemed pretty reasonable--some actually lower than the conversion suggested. Is there a specific update you had concerns with, or is this more about lack of notifications?

 

[Miko]

Full disclosure, this is why I am very careful with what I document. Far more simple to laugh it off as oops, didn't know any better than to spend hours defending something. Other reason is not knowing proper way to even get something approved to start with.

This is also paired with the challenge of two people reading the same sentence and coming to a different conclusion. This is a pretty common challenge and not an easy one to overcome. It is possible but for sure a skill that is hard to master.

All the best and look forward to doing more RP!

 

[Rizzo]

I took a few minutes to review the recent updates and they all seemed pretty reasonable--some actually lower than the conversion suggested. Is there a specific update you had concerns with, or is this more about lack of notifications?

Primarily, lack of notification.
Every single one of us is expected to bring our changes through NTSE. Anything controversial has a big discussion and a decision made after hearing all sides and opinions. It allows the communities voices to be heard. When we don’t use it, the community doesn’t have a chance to be heard.

Here is one that I was preparing to work on that Ame updated. The Sylph wing pack was changed to T6. This is the equivalent of a PA scale heavy machinegun.

I had done my utmost to find the original creator and asked him for information regarding this creation. Fred told me the size of the wing pack, which was never listed, and the original concept. he also told me the function of the wing weapons. The wing drones are roughly rifle sized from what I learned and should be equivalent in power to the ABSR beam. T5 is what their beams are at and you have four of them so that's a lot of shots downrange. The T6 rating is equivalent to a PA heavy machine gun, essentially an autocannon. It does not fit the original creators vision and makes the aetheric pulse cannon effectively obsolete as it can work in space and atmosphere. (And there's 4 of them.)

I have not tracked down other edits so I would not know what others have been done yet without researching it. This again is why I proudly support the NTSE process, imperfect as it is. It gives people a chance to point out these discrepancies and when kept a civil forum serves us well.

 

[Ametheliana]

You didn't take issue with a single article at first, just that I did it. You were mad on principle rather for any justifiable reason. You're the person who said in 2017 in the DRv3 approval thread, "I have no intention of ever really studying these new guidelines beyond 'this is a big gun, this is a wittle guy!'" and I'm the person who has been using DRv3 to approve articles since that same year. Saying I don't understand something I've been intimate with for seven years is implying I'm stupid. I've weathered the "Ame has no clue what she's talking about" storm before but I've also been hearing dumb blonde jokes since IRL puberty, my dude. It's not a new insult, but it is so soooo lame to me to see someone ruin the site again because they think I'm too stupid to be doing what I'm doing.

Regardless, you found a specific example out of dozens and it's still a correct conversion. The "staff fixme" note even said it should be tier 7 or 8 and I nerfed it to 6 because 6 matched its stated purpose better.

I'm willing to change and listen. When you said I got a specific conversion wrong, I went to the creator who confirmed I didn't. I really took it to heart when you said I fundamentally don't understand DR and made sure I took the steps to see if you were right. You were wrong, so I just fail to see you as coming from a righteous place. If someone's right, I'll change my stance.

"Roughly equivalent to the ABSR" but the ABSR goes up to Tier 6.

The original creator told me "5 would be the beam setting, I think. But the wings could just as well make a fly-by attack, grazing an opponent for tier 6 just like a saber could. Or 4 for rapid-fire."

The listed DR should be the highest tier it can go, so it is correctly listed. But, I can add in information for each type of attack possible. The listed tier has always been the highest tier possible, but the article is missing that fluff that I quoted above.

How should I have informed that I was taking up this task? It took me two hours and I still have a lot more to do and I want to know how to proceed in order to not upset you in such a way that you berate me in public once more.

 

[Rizzo]

A lot to unpack here so I want to start by saying thank you. You are trying to help the community and I respect that. I am not calling you stupid and did not even mention names, so I'm sorry if this became a public beratement. I promise I did not make it go that way.

You quote my words at a time when I did not understand DRv3. I said that, it's true. I also mentioned publicly very recently that I was against v3 at one time and my mind was changed. It was changed quite quickly too.

Now I’m a bit on the spot so I’ll be as tactful as possible. We both know that isn’t my strong suit so I ask you be patient with my response here. I mean this with love and respect. I know for a fact you are a very intelligent person. There is a difference between intelligence and understanding and that's what I am claiming. With the respect of a friend who even now still wants you to be happy and successful I simply do not believe you fully understand v3. I don’t patronize people so understand I mean this kindly, It’s not your fault that v3 is semi paradoxical in nature. There are many misunderstandings about v3 that pop up and it’s no shame to misunderstand a number system that is actively trying to not be a number system. You aren’t stupid and I wouldn’t call you that because you’re not.

I’ll skip DR stuff as it belongs in the NTSE submissions area along with all of the updates and changes we make to the wiki. I was told to make these submit changes for review. Even Wes submits articles to NTSE. It would go a long way to our relationship and peace to simply submit changes to the NTSE for review. That is, after all, what every member is instructed to do, right?

 

[Ametheliana]

You were the one who brought hard numbers to the conversation. It's the only reason I felt like replying, because I care about the hard numbers being right or wrong. If not here, I think it should be now. Post in the sylph wing pack thread your problems ASAP please so I don't have to keep stressing about this issue you created.

So I should submit every change I make? I did this many and have just as many more changes to make:

It took two hours to do so. If I submit every one, it will take 5 more. This is too much to ask and not necessary. Wes submits some articles (not even most or all of his articles get submitted btw) and I submit my new technologies, but not changes like this that are necessitated by staff.

I would like to request some other way to comply with your wishes on this as the one you're calling for is extraordinarily beyond feasible.

 

[raz]

Every single one of us is expected to bring our changes through NTSE.

I'd like to note that this isn't necessarily true. NTSE means "New Technology and Setting Elements." All of the DR changes in question are old and approved tech with no major substantive changes (which would require approval). These articles have or previously had a FixMe label for Staff members to adjust as appropriate. As far as I understand the situation, Wes asked Ametheliana to make these conversions and she is in the process of doing so.

No process was bypassed. "NTSE" isn't some official entity with membership. It's a message board where major additions or changes should be posted so that Staff members and some designated extra moderators can approve or ask for changes. None of the DR updates are major changes, and Staff members going in to make the conversion fixes is more appropriate than a dozen separate threads.

 

[Rizzo]

@Ametheliana if you're not going to go through the process we're all required to go through then those changes haven't been peer-reviewed which is a big part of what makes the NTSE trustworthy. I completely understand where you’re coming from, it is a huge time commitment and I'm willing to help with submitting those updates with you to reduce the burden on you alone, but this burden is no different than what every single person on SARP is required to carry when doing Wiki changes.

@raz don’t bother arguing semantics. You well know that "DR Update Only" is a tag for the NTSE thread submissions. It's all handled in the same place.

 

[Ametheliana]

I'm a staff member. Multiple other staff members including the admin have told you that I'm allowed to do those changes. If you want to submit every change, they'll be marked the same as before "DRv3 update // FixMe Addressed" so they'll be easy to find and I'll update the worldbuilding channel after I have done my next batch. I think that's a healthy compromise since you're not coming up with a new one.

Everyone told you to take this to my DMs and I received none. You've been told how to handle this situation by Wes by going into the individual threads but you're not taking those steps. You've been told by the people that are right what to do but haven't done them. Solution? Listen to everyone else but me telling you what to do here.

I'll be waiting for individual complaints to come up in their respective threads and will likely do what I've already done here and prove that I made the right call (and thusly that I do understand DRv3). Thanks.

 

[Rizzo]

Review the anger in your post. See the way you handle your authority. Do you serve the community or are you expecting me to serve you?

You’re angry, I’m not expecting you to be nice when you’re angry, but this is what I’ve been getting from you since the beginning of this. All I had to do was disagree. Can you blame me for avoiding DMs?

In the interest of peace and helping the community come together over this, let’s start over. I believe that the best thing we can do is find agreement somewhere. Maybe DRv3 tiers need more clarification. Perhaps we can work towards that?