Abandoned Submission Business Treaty of YE 40 Update

[FrostJaeger]

Submission URL

https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=international:business_treaty_of_ye_40

Submission Faction(s)

1. Yamatai (except Elysia)
2. Nepleslia
3. Elysia
4. Poku (HSC)
5. Iromakuanhe
6. Neshaten
7. NDC

Submission Terms

1. I agree

• Submission Type: Treaty Update
• FM Approved Yet? No, @Wes
• Faction Requires Art? No.

For Reviewers:

• Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? No.
• Contains Links to Unapproved Articles? No.
• Contains New Art? No.
• Previously Submitted? No.
• Changelog: Link
• Checklist Requested? Yes.

An update to the proposed International Business Treaty of YE 40 that implements some changes @Nashoba and @Soban suggested. Also tagging @Legix, @Syaoran, @META_mahn, @Nashoba, @Soresu, @Kyle, and @Jack Pine, as in my opinion their factions would have an IC interest in this treaty. (No offense, @Primitive Polygon, but as far as I know the Freespacers wouldn't really be interested in this kind of thing.)

 

[Toshiro]

My civilian character has recently been working in the areas that USO rules out west, largely because that's where such relevant work can currently be found. I'm worried if characters who work out there are going to be 'blacklisted' by signing nations or considered problems by them simply because of doing work with groups outside this treaty or not. I don't see anything specific barring civilian groups from working with non-signed nations in the submission, but I am wondering about the IC political "intent" and if unspoken consequences will result. Such as licenses being revoked, or not granted/renewed. Can I get clarification on this?

Also, 'Independent' has never explicitly meant 'rogue' before. I don't like that aspect of this either. It used to just mean 'civilian/multi-national'. Yggdrasill was considered the first 'independent' plot, and tried to be ethical and respectful of other nations' laws.

I don't like the whole Arcmark ban thing as written, in part because other nations shouldn't govern how business is conducted between businesses and USO within USO's own space. It's fine if the Arcmark has no value to the signing nations' governments, as they individually decide if they internally accept that currency as having value, but to bar corporations from even accepting it inside OR outside their space is excessive. The Arcmark's value isn't defined by politics as much as the market, though the politicians are trying to make a heavy-handed attempt to control the market by this.

I actually would argue that clamping down on exchanging currency in general so much would make the Arcmark a MORE attractive option for international trade by eliminating the freeness of the banking system in place with this artificial limitation; especially for illegal activity, some Freespacers, or groups that simply don't want their transactions tracked by what they see as draconian financial tracking laws. This would actually limit the signing nations' abilities to track illegal transactions or money laundering and eventually make the Arcmark more likely to be "the choice currency of the outer reaches of space" over the KS.

Imagine if the Kuvexians used this situation to bolster the value of the Arcmark somehow to wage an economic proxy war with Yamatai's KS.

When you set up a walled garden to protect yourself, your influence outside that garden can yield to whatever is outside it. Perhaps some other solution would fill the domestic intentions of the governments without causing this effect?

 

[Syaoran]

@FrostJaeger You are aware that what I suggested perfectly covers security risk right? If you just make this only a license system, then nations that want security simply only deal with companies that have a license. I'm not understanding why you are trying to fight the license set up. You're handing out a license already anyway, all you'd be doing is changing these form laws into "The conditions needed to acquire the license".

I hate to say it like this, but what are you not telling us about the intent of this treaty. Because from what you've stated there is no reason not to do the license document set up, and the only reason I can think of is if the treaty is meant to strong arm someone into cooperating.

I really hate to make accusations like that, but your behavior is really just suspicious man.

 

[Syaoran]

It's been brought to my attention that some people might not be understanding what I said, so I'll clear things up.

The idea I'm proposing is to reshape the treaty. Instead of making this a treaty for new laws, make it a treaty about the establishment of a new inter-factional business license. And that the treaty stipulates the rules in which a business must follow in order to obtain the license.

This would not actually change the rules about what license holders need to do to maintain their status. Rather what it would do is remove the stigma of 'illegal' from those who choose not to get a license. This would also allow for factions to on their own terms choose what they do with unlicensed companies, and it would make being licensed a privileged status.

So in short this proposal would shift this from being a punishing system, to a reward system for those who keep to strict guidelines.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Alrighty-o. After a discussion with @Syaoran over Discord - thanks @Kyle for setting that up, by the way - I've made some changes to the submission article. @Toshiro - Apologies, but I'm going to have to address your post tomorrow, as it's late and I'm very, very tired. Sorry... >.<

Spoiler: Changes

Here's a screenshot of what the altered portion of the article originally said...



...and here's what it says now:

Additionally, the article now links to the business license article (list, more accurately) that I've been working on.

 

[Zack]

So all we would need to do is get two nations to consider another nation's currency worthless and it would then be illegal to transact in that nation's currency?

 

[Alex Hart]

Well, let's see... that part of the article isn't there anymore, so don't try to make this seem like it's aimed at you specifically. Frost didn't come up with the treaty, he's just writing the article for it. Stop it.

 

[Zack]

@Alex Hart Section 2, like 3 says that explicitly.

 

[Alex Hart]

It is not illegal to transact in an infrequently used currency, but a business that uses it exclusively couldn’t get a lisence.

However, an unlicensed business can still be permitted to operate in a nation at that nation’s discretion.

 

[Wes]

Allowing unlicensed businesses defeats the whole purpose of the treaty, and it makes getting a license pointless in the first place (why even get one if other businesses can simply circumvent them?). This revised version doesn't make sense at all and doesn't seem to actually accomplish anything useful. If you want your boat to float you don't put a gaping hole in the bottom, and if you want your laws to work you don't put a gaping loophole in them either.

 

[FrostJaeger]

Acknowledged, @Wes - I've updated the treaty accordingly.

Spoiler: The Update

@Toshiro - I'll be editing my reply into this post once it's finished.

Edit: Nevermind, I'll have it be its own separate post - I was going to edit it in mainly to avoid double-posting, but that's no longer necessary.

 

[Syaoran]

@Wes you could easily add -benefits- to having a license. But making it against the law to operate without a license benefits no one, all it does is hurt. And I will say the ASE will not be signing this if it gets to decide what companies are legal and not. the ASE does not want other people deciding for them who they do business with.

 

[Wes]

I'm not sure you understand because nations would totally still decide on their own which businesses are legal (licensed) in their nations. This is about FMs being able to keep unwanted corporations (like Kuvexian ones, or corps that refuse to call any nation home and thus are lawless) out.

The benefit to a business license, just like in real life, is being able to legally operate in a given territory. Nations like Yamatai and Nepleslia are big markets and the source of customers in SARP.

Let's use Warm and Sweet as an example. It's a Yamataian business, which is licensed in Yamatai, and it does business in the YSE. If we wanted to expand it into Nepleslia, we'd apply for a license there and if accepted, we'd be able to have storefronts there too. But without a licensing model other nations can just barge into your nation unannounced and sell their unregulated products. In real life unlicensed businesses are things like cocaine dealers, human traffickers, and dudes who scalp tickets and knockoff T-shirts outside the local baseball field.

 

[Syaoran]

Nations wouldn't be able to decide because the treaty stipulates what a business has to do to acquire a license. It doesn't leave that up to the nation to decide. So that's still the treaty deciding what is and isn't legal. However if the license isn't about legality and just about awarding privilege, a Nation has the choice of not dealing with business that don't have a license, so they can still block out those businesses if they want to.

This will be like the third time I've explained that. No one is saying we shouldn't have a license. But if you make it so that the business is illegal without a license everywhere, that you you(the treaty) deciding for other nations who they should and shouldn't do business with. That's bad from an IC stand point, and even worse from an OOC stand point because now the treaty is infringing on FM rights. This would involve control over technology base. Being able to decide what technology is there and if those companies are illegal or not.

This treaty as it is does nothing for 'protection' it's just a punishment for people who don't jump through specific hoops. It's extra details that serve no purpose in an OOC perspective but causes more limitations for IC. That is not by any means a 'good' ruling.

So again, if we make the license a privileged system, rather than a punishment system, and then leave it upto nations to decide how they will interact with unlicensed companies, we get the protection, without having to force players through hoops.

And for the record that are many other kinds of unlicensed businesses all around the world. You're looking at it from a Hollywood perspective. The little girl selling lemonade down the street is an unlicensed business. Not every unlicensed business is cracked down on, and not every nation in the real world makes unlicensed businesses illegal. You have to open your mind and not just look at what's right in front of you.

 

[Jack Pine]

I have a question. What about say groups like my organization which isn't a corporation, or even a business, but sell the products of their research.

We sell milspec and civilian products, but as mentioned aren't a business. In addition we offer services, like provide security services, or research commissions.

So in wondering how that would effect a group like Section 6?

 

[FrostJaeger]

They...hm. I’m guessing they probably wouldn’t be considered as a business for the purposes of this treaty, @Jack Pine, though I’d ask @Wes for a more definitive answer.

 

[Primitive Polygon]

Forgive the diatribe, but I feel like we are really missing a perspective here; Is this treaty thematically correct for the powers in question? Does it sound like a treaty that the ruling parties of these nations would pass in character? Or is this something that should really be handled out of character instead, for the general sake of good RP? These honestly seem like the questions that we should be answering first and foremost.

The point I'm getting at is, maybe Yamatai would be unjust against USO, seeing them as upstarts or defectors. Maybe they are even a little right, from a certain point of view. Maybe other factions with lower moral standards stand to make huge profits for having a lower bar for 'licensed' companies.

Mortally right or wrong, that is RP potential. That is not in itself a bad thing...

But instead, everybody is just talking about this like it is personally designed to backstab certain types of players. And that's kind of a massive alarm bell for me.

In meta terms, this treaty may be designed to stop one-player super-powered corporations from springing up, much in the way that one-player alien races were a problem; But the difference is that decision was handled out of character. It was designed in a way to protect good RP and player relations in the meta.

If we want to come to an agreement here, it needs to be either out of character but fully impartial towards all players, OR in character and justified in-universe.

These are two very separate concepts with differing ramifications.

 

[Syaoran]

I agree with that @Primitive Polygon which is why I proposed what I did. Cause Out of character and In Character, I don't think the FMs or nations would give up their right to decide what business is and isn't allowed in their territory to a treaty. I mean even in the real world, individual states in the US all have their own rules for Business Licenses, it's not just one universal set of requirements, and technically they're all the same country.

 

[Alex Hart]

I think this version of the treaty is what makes sense in universe, as no actual political leader would give up their power to decide what businesses to allow in their territory.

Stopping infiltrating kuvexian corporations will be up to individual nations, and stopping brand new super-powered corporations from popping into existence with each new player on the site will take an impartial OOC rule, like @Primitive Polygon said.

 

[Wes]

I don't think the FMs or nations would give up their right to decide what business is and isn't allowed in their territory to a treaty

The proposed treaty doesn't ask nations to give up any rights to decide what businesses can do business there.

 

[Soban]

I feel like this treaty amounts to "Fish must have gills" which is rather pointless given that part of the definition of fish is "gill bearing". It's no longer bad and just merely 'Well duh, we do that'. I'm not completely convinced that one person super corporations are a problem. However, I can see why they might be. However, that's a OOC problem and so should probably be solved by OOC methoods.