Closed Changing how changes to existing canon concepts and faction tenants are made.

[Andrew]

I've noticed, the Perceived Issues, Historical Precedent and the Way Forward thread has stirred up a lot of conversation and emotions, even mine. What I am suggesting here is a change to the way we handle suggested changes that are established in canon like these.

I think that these suggestions should be made in a format that shows the suggesting party understands the type of change they want to make. They should have to make an actual proposal, which then can be debated, and discussed and FMs make final decisions.

The Form​

This is just a suggested form -The presenter should have this filled out before it goes to discussion.

The Change
What is the change being proposed?
What established canon concept or issue is it changing?

Research
Where in the Wiki or RP is this currently established concept? (This prevents people from using "friend knowledge" over actual "established canon")
What in-universe parties are affected by this change? (Those who benefit and those who don't)
What is the recourse of these parties if the change is made?
What compromises am I will offer if the change is not accepted?
What triggered me to want this change? Is it an IC thing or an OOC thing for me?

Planning
How would this change be rolled out if it is accepted? What IC event would trigger its roll-out, or it something that would just change?


I find that one of the major reasons I get aggravated by people presenting changes, especially in Yamatai is due to A) How it is being presented B) The knowledge or lack thereof behind what they want to change.

The Process​

I think that this type of proposal, followed by discussion and debate on each individual topic would provide a more constructive environment for changes to actually get made. The process for change would look something like this:

A) The Proposal
B) The Community Discussion
C) The FM Decision
D) Roll out In-Universe.

 

[Locked_0ut]

Just gonna throw this out there:
I think as a site we should be making things user friendly for newcomers. (Biased as a newcomer). Introducing things that require people to have read old RPs that happened years before their time seems to do the opposite of making the site more accessible.

 

[Ametheliana]

If a new player wants to change the setting in a big way, they should have done that reading to back up the change. This isn't a change that would stop a new player from joining a plotship. This is a reaction to veteran players changing the setting oddly and making sure there are future plans to dissuade ANYONE from changes that negatively impact the setting.

 

[Ethereal]

If reading setting information and prior history and RP is a burden, then text RP isn't really for the person.

This is a bit of a strawman. There's a difference between having a functional understanding of the setting and an encyclopaedic one. Reading as you go is part of the deal as @Soban and @FrostJaeger said. Expecting someone to know how every bit of canon - wikified or not - might be affected, is gatekeeping for new players and pretty unreasonable.

no one said either of those things.

Andrew quite clearly stated that 'friend canon' - which I can only presume to be the knowledge you've gained from other SARPers rather than the wiki/forum - isn't good enough to submit one of these. Also the requirements of "What in-universe parties are affected by this change?" implies that you need to have read all the RP and articles, to be able to figure out what might be affected that isn't on the wiki. Especially if you can't ask your friends.

New players need to be reading more than anyone else.

Sure, but currently new players just need to know enough to make and play a Santo Hei, and if they want to contribute we can chat to them OOC about it and if they submit something which affects other things, it's brought up amicably there. I feel like expecting new players to hand you an essay before even reaching NTSE is disincentivising people from helping to build out SARP. Especially if some unused settings elements that hasn't been touched or RPed with in half a decade essentially vetoes what you actively would RP with.

The submissions process was a red herring tangent.

There was no suggestion that I could see that this process would be optional, which implies it's part of the process for adding things to the setting. If this is optional I stand corrected.

SASO changing SAINT would have been a lot more lore-accurate with checks and balances in place

Those checks and balances are FMs and Wes. SAINT had been a ghost ship for a while whereas people were actually interested in being Rangers and running plotships. Everyone got a chance to speak in those submissions threads and it got signed off. I don't know what to tell you. Unless you're saying that we should add layers of 'glass display case, do not touch' to settings elements, to the detriment of newer, exciting things that people want to use.

 

[Andrew]

@Wes Could you lock this thread please, I'd like to withdraw my suggestion.

 

[Ametheliana]

You helped oust the captain so saying it's a ghost ship and that's why you sunk it won't work on me.

The submission threads about SASO up and down have Wes saying he doesn't like them and Yui doesn't want them. I stayed away because I trusted in the submission process but I had to step in to save a huge part of the setting from what this thread is pushing to not let happen. It was fully usable and Fred used SAINT with raz gone, he played Shida for crying out loud! It wasn't a glass display case, it was a piece of the setting you wouldn't touch but made sure others couldn't enjoy. I think that mentality has got to stop.

 

[Soban]

Shida literally had "only Raz and Wes can use this, thx" and he was the head of the organization

 

[Ametheliana]

For more than a month I played SAINT with no head of the organization. Can you guys only use setting elements if you're the head of them?

 

[Soban]

Ame, I really didn't want anything to do with SAINT, and I was considering taking the position. So yhea, I thought there was a problem.

 

[Locked_0ut]

If a new player wants to change the setting in a big way, they should have done that reading to back up the change. This isn't a change that would stop a new player from joining a plotship. This is a reaction to veteran players changing the setting oddly and making sure there are future plans to dissuade ANYONE from changes that negatively impact the setting.

but as stated elsewhere in the thread, changes already require a submission process. I know even just early on when I created my first character (and when I've created other characters) There've been the "oh you can't do this, you can do that" and that's part of the process right?
When it comes to bigger changes there's still a process of discussing and accepting the change.
The problem I've been seeing all day (well longer honestly. Pretty much since I've joined) is that sometimes even discussing changes or anything gets met with hostility and "Oh you just don't understand"
on one side yeah I get it, when you've been there for a long time, certain things make sense because you were there for the thing. On the other side for people who weren't there for that thing or don't have anywhere near the same level of mental or emotional investment in the thing might see things that could be improved because they don't have that same investment.
This isn't really trying to put blame on either side there. Main thing is that it's not a malice thing or anything like that.