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Rejected Submission (Colonial Pact) V100N 'Voz' Micro-Missile

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As I've stated before, @Arieg, there's a very good reason literally no one else in the entire setting has infantry-scale micro-missiles: they're extraordinarily overpowered when utilized by infantry against other infantry - and this one is no exception.

  • How is your average soldier or Nekovalkyrja - without the point-defense/sensors/mobility/etc. of power armor - supposed to have any chance in hell against a missile with a range of 10 kilometers and a velocity of 1,920.8 meters per second?
  • How is a mere 40-millimeter grenade able to have a blast radius of eight meters, the ability to "[penetrate] up to 40mm of unshielded Nerimium," or - best of all - the "yield of a 120mm HE mortar shell[?]"
  • How does something a fraction of the size of a Nepleslian minimissile have greater range, equivalent firepower, and a larger area of effect?
  • How is something capable of doing all of the above crammed into a package measuring 13.8 by 4.2 centimeters in size, when only Yamatai has miniaturization technology that advanced?

I mean, come on - this is such an "instant win" button against infantry (and power armor, to a lesser extent) it's not even funny anymore.
 
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Arieg said:
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To the best of my knowledge, @Arieg, most species in the setting (with the possible exception of Nekovalkyrja) cannot detect, react, or move quickly enough to simply "dodge" a missile traveling at a speed in excess of five times the speed of sound unless equipped with power armor - and even if they could somehow dodge, they'd be caught within the missile's blast radius.
 

First Point - They're not, infantry of the leg kind in a SARP combined arms environment are going to die en masse and mostly when these articles are considered whether a leg cat can use em or not infantry aren't factored in because honestly we're not balanced around it. PA are the infantry of SARP atm and thats what most people think about, as far as why they can tote this thing? Pact guys are going to either have augments that allow them to operate these systems or employ personal electronic suits that provide and link into sensor data. More or less this ATGM, RPG-7, or Igla MANPAD, primarily on the infantry level for use against PA or light armored vehicles. Of course people are going to find reasons to use these on other leg infantry. As far as the range goes that will require sensor data, meaning something with optical sensors has to see your infantry and provide the launch coords, of course more then likely this platform will directly engage you.

Second Point - I was using Nerimium as a RHA (rolled homogeneous steel) analogue but I can switch to Durandium if its a large issue (though Nerimium is practically site wide and is a single element material which works better for my purposes). The 120mm mortar shell and the kill radius for unarmored (IE no hardsuit or semi-hardsuit) is effectively describing what happens at the point of impact, its got enough boom since its not a simple chemical explosive warhead that if your within that 8 meter blast radius and your exposed your probably going to die from overpressure. But again we don't design things based around the needs of unarmored leg infantry.

Third Point - Actually if your going full 8oz can size mine are taller but yours are fatter and compared to some other options in the setting woefully short range, though I believe we've had this discussion about capping capabilities based on Nep articles during the sensor debacle. It didn't hold up then and it shouldn't hold up here, additionally you have an antimatter missile option which a Tier 6 damage 3 meter blast radius of effect..... so I don't have more OP systems.

Fourth Point - I'm effectively operating within the normal sizes of the site, range wise I'm well below the standard set by Yamatai (50 miles for Mindy type missiles). As far as mass and blast I've described the why, I'm not using chemical explosives, I'm using micro-fusion detonation systems to either generate plasma and direct it or simply to create a large explosion.

But yea, as far as this getting used by infantry and those guys using it on hostile infantry, the operators would be limited by sensor data and their own situation. Either way someone is going to noob tube someone.

Ametheliana said:
The submitted article is/does not…
[] Overpowered (or cutting tech for a faction with little or no roleplay)

With this in mind, this article would not pass. Please reform it to fit in the setting as less overpowered.
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I've stated above why it is not overpowered and well within operating standards for the setting.
 
Please note that if need be, a submitter can appeal an actual rejection. No such rejection has taken place, so this thread is ongoing.
 
Arieg said:
First Point - They're not...
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Exactly, which is why I believe this submission to be extraordinarily overpowered.

Arieg said:
...infantry of the leg kind in a SARP combined arms environment are going to die en masse...
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Yes, from power armor, vehicles, aerospacecraft, and mecha. I'm not contesting that - I'm contesting the fact that these missiles would allow literally any infantryman to do this from ten kilometers away. How can you possibly call that anything but overpowered?

Arieg said:
...and mostly when these articles are considered whether a leg cat can use em or not infantry aren't factored in because honestly we're not balanced around it.
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Baloney. Power armor is balanced against power armor, vehicles are balanced against vehicles, aerospacecraft are balanced against aerospacecraft, mecha are balanced against mecha, and starships are balanced against starships - so nice try, but no. We are balanced around "it," and this missile in my opinion tosses this balance out the window.

Arieg said:
...as far as why they can tote this thing? Pact guys are going to either have augments that allow them to operate these systems or employ personal electronic suits that provide and link into sensor data.
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Thereby allowing said "guys" to acquire and/or fire these things at the speed of thought. Yep, that's totally balanced, alright - what next, a smart pistol?

Arieg said:
More or less this ATGM, RPG-7, or Igla MANPAD, primarily on the infantry level for use against PA or light armored vehicles.
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Then why are there two different warhead types, one of which is specifically meant for use against large groups of infantry?

Arieg said:
Of course people are going to find reasons to use these on other leg infantry.
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That reason is called the High Explosive Dual Purpose Anti-Material (HEDP-AM), correct? I mean, come on - it even says (emphasis mine)...

The warhead description said:
The most common type of warhead employed, the HEDP-AM is both an anti-material and anti-personnel weapon system...
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Nice try.

Arieg said:
As far as the range goes that will require sensor data, meaning something with optical sensors has to see your infantry and provide the launch coords...
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Didn't you literally just say the following?

Arieg said:
Pact guys are going to either have augments that allow them to operate these systems or employ personal electronic suits that provide and link into sensor data, of course more then likely this platform will directly engage you.
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Please, @Arieg. What you're actually saying is that once a Pact soldier sees an enemy, they'll be able to lock them up within a few seconds and shoot this missile, likely before said enemy even has time to respond - and that's the best-case scenario; what's to stop someone from sending up a drone/glassing from far away/using starship sensor data/using vehicle data/etc. to take out large numbers of "obscured" (beyond line-of-sight) targets with pinpoint accuracy from ten kilometers away?

* * * * * * *

Arieg said:
Second Point - I was using Nerimium as a RHA (rolled homogeneous steel) analogue but I can switch to Durandium if its a large issue (though Nerimium is practically site wide and is a single element material which works better for my purposes).
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It's a large issue because, coincidentally enough, Neriumium isn't "site wide" like Durandium; rather, it's used almost exclusively by Nepleslian Arms and Munitions, who is the exclusive military producer for the Democratic Imperium of Nepleslia - which is a faction whose leadership you've had..."disagreements" with in the past. Furthermore, it's a material that the Colonial Pact would have no in-character knowledge of whatsoever due to their lack of contact with any other faction in the setting.

Arieg said:
But again we don't design things based around the needs of unarmored leg infantry.
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Like I said before: Baloney. We design things based on the needs of unarmored leg infantry when said things are used by unarmored leg infantry.

* * * * * * *


For a third time: Baloney. Why should everyone else's infantry - not just Nepleslia's, everyone's - have to scramble to keep with up just because you introduce something that, as I've said before, is (in my opinion) extraordinarily overpowered?

Arieg said:
...additionally you have an antimatter missile option which a Tier 6 damage 3 meter blast radius of effect...
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You seem to be forgetting, @Arieg, that the BOLT mini-missile is not usable by infantry. The V100N 'Voz' Micro Missile, by contrast, is.

Arieg said:
..... so I don't have more OP systems.
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As I've stated before, the V100N 'Voz' Micro Missile is in my opinion extraordinarily overpowered for the reasons mentioned above, below, and in my previous posts.

* * * * * * *

Arieg said:
Fourth Point - I'm effectively operating within the normal sizes of the site...
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You're not, actually. Elysian, Lorath, Motoyoshi, Nepleslian, Origin, and USO mini-missiles are larger, equally destructive, and not usable by infantry.

Arieg said:
As far as mass and blast I've described the why, I'm not using chemical explosives, I'm using micro-fusion detonation systems to either generate plasma and direct it or simply to create a large explosion.
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So? Many of the mini-missiles I mentioned above have similar or superior warheads and greater mass - yet have lesser blast radii and equivalent "punch."

* * * * * * *

Arieg said:
But yea, as far as this getting used by infantry and those guys using it on hostile infantry, the operators would be limited by sensor data and their own situation.
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For a fourth time: Baloney. Sensor data is hardly what I'd call "limiting" when it's available from personal gear/drones/vehicles/starships/other operators/etc. - and "situation"? Seriously? How is being able to stand ten kilometers away and get a practically-guaranteed kill- regardless of line-of-sight blockages - "limiting" in any shape or form?

Arieg said:
Either way someone is going to noob tube someone.
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Yeah, because it's certainly easier than using plain old bullets - which have those pesky downsides called "range," "bullet drop," "line of sight," and "unguided" - to kill someone. Why bother even carrying guns to the battlefield when you can just carry a bunch of micro-missile launchers with greater range, accuracy, and area of effect?


You, in my opinion, have done nothing of the sort; rather - in my opinion - you've only further demonstrated how extraordinarily overpowered (in my opinion) the V100N 'Voz' Micro Missile is.
 
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Ame, can you elaborate on why this is overpowered? There are a ton of mini-missiles and small drones in the setting.
A person would be tier 1? So a tier 4 infantry portable weapon seems reasonable. I'd think the tier 6 one might be a bit much but it's unclear what Arieg needs to be changing up.

Edit: to clarify, 4 seems reasonable since it is at the top of the max allowed under the old dr 3 rules so long as you traded up on all your other weapons.
 
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Yea not going to read that wall of text, but yea @Zack the Tier 6 warhead is more or less the big boy anti-PA round and the Tier-6 effect is point of impact only. So it'll only apply to one target, the secondary effect would still happen but its not tier 6.
 
I don't think that matters. Under the previous rules set for DRv3 you'd still be counted as having a tier 6 weapon which wouldn't be usable by tier 1 unarmored people.

Then again I think that restriction was lifted (Weapon amounts per ship) so I'd like to hear what the problem is rather than speculate. The tier 6 is just the thing that stands out to me.
 

Well remember the intention of this little bastard is to provide a common missile across infantry, exosuit, PA, and vehicle systems for use against.. well infantry, exosuit, PA, and vehicle systems though Tier 6 is pretty much as high as I'll will go due to its size (I'm not putting antimatter in such a small system).
 
I noticed that the guidance bit was cut off at "This method however requires the launching platform to", so it needs finishing. Regarding the usage of millimeters of armor plating penetrated like a modern day metric - don't. Remove that entirely, since it'll just cause numerous issues with people furiously debating armor thickness and the like regarding fictional materials. That's a headache we don't need at all. Regarding the damage output however, it appears to be within limits considering mini-missiles got a retcon and buff when DRv3 came around.

When used against power armor and vehicles, the damage is balanced since it's exactly what the system has lead us to expect, and when used against infantry, it's also balanced since it's exactly what the system says will happen. DRv2 didn't allow foot infantry to use PA grade weapons because it was an arbitrary rule to keep PA dominant, but that's been done away with in DRv3. They can realistically use the missiles against other infantry and achieve overkill the same way Syrians do when using TOW Missiles against a person who's taking a leak against a pole (don't look for it, will ruin your innocence). It's overkill, but also incredibly wasteful. Infantry can also use these mini-missiles against PA and vehicles, but they have good point defense systems that can shoot most or even all of these down. Infantry, like in real life, will get cut down with little or no damage done if they use these recklessly.

I don't think it's overpowered.

Regarding how the DR is displayed though, I'd mandate that they be listed out in a neat little chart instead, but this is your submission Ame. If there's anything else you want my opinion on though, let me know.
 
What you can do is nerf two of the following:
  • size
  • tier
  • range
  • speed
It's your choice, but two of these four things needs to change for this to fit within the setting.
 
Let us begin with the 'roof' design, the Yamataian main use mini-missile the MSAP or Multi-purpose Shield and Armor Piercing missile. It has a range of 80.4 kilometers (50 miles) and is roughly the size iirc of a standard US type 12 oz soda can (@Wes @Fred confirm?). It also employs a warhead in the Tier 6 Heavy Anti-armor range as a standard, I'm not a hundred percent sure what it is but I'm fairly sure it isn't a chemical explosive. So that is the 'roof' of mini-missile design between both range and mass and blast potential (assuming its going to have a bit of AOE in the 3-4 meter range). Speed isn't listed but considering its probably designed to deal with the common threats of the universe, it'll have to intercept a maneuvering man sized target moving at 1.7 Mach or 583 meters per second. Meaning it'll probably be moving at about the same speed as the Voz design or maybe a hair slower due to its width.

Whether or not the Voz is better then the Nepleslian designs is moot, they imo weren't designed for the sort of role the MSAP and the Voz are intended for due to their rather short range, smaller size (8z can sized) and cheaper construction (The main one reads like a conventional chemical explosive HEAT warhead). So saying that the Voz is overpowered because it equals or outperforms these Nep systems is honestly the same arguement that my sensor articles from before where overpowered. Attempting to hold my articles to an old and less thought out standard.

I will not budge on range, the warheads, or the size, but I will lower the speed to Mach 4.
 
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