Copyright Policy Change

OLD TEXT:

4. StarArmy.com retains all ownership in the website.

StarArmy.com retains all ownership including all URLs and any content created or derived from the website. You assign to StarArmy.com all rights, titles and interest in and to any material or comments submitted by you as part of the forums or contact page. You grant StarArmy.com the right to use or reference your name and content on StarArmy.com and elsewhere to promote StarArmy.com without your consent and you give full rights and permissions for that content to be used in any other manner by the site owner, to include use of said content to be used in commercial works. This includes but is not limited to: role-play posts, characters, names, and URLs.

We understand your desire to hang on to the things you've created elsewhere and brought into StarArmy.com, and thus we grant the original owners of such content a limited license to continue using the content elsewhere so long as it does not include the intellectual property of StarArmy.com within it.

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SUGGESTED NEW TEXT:

Your original creations here are your own, but once you add them to Star Army, they're also the community's to use; by participating in the Star Army community, you agree to assign Star Army an irrevocable license to utilize the content you submit, such as wiki edits, forum posts, image uploads, and characters. This gives Star Army the ability to use the material you contribute in the same way its owner would (including using it in commerical works to raise funds for the Star Army community). If you wish to use Star Army's content, or content derived from Star Army's intellectual property (such as a Nekovalkyrja character), you would need to first obtain Star Army's permission.

PURPOSE:

This policy update eliminates StarArmy's old policy of claiming full ownership of its content. Instead, it lets authors retain ownership (while still allowing StarArmy the same abilities it had before).

This seems like an improvement. I'm for it.

Not really necessary, is it? Since Wes owns Star Army and all. Its not as if he's suddenly going to go nuts one day and say no one is allowed to roleplay in the SARP universe ever again...right?

There are more dimensions to this than meets the eye.

For example, it would give me the right to take the Sakura gunship or the Miharu 3d models and go put them for sale on a site such as Turbosquid.

This is the thread that brought this issue to the forefront. I'm Ikari, for the record.

Kotori said:

For example, it would give me the right to take the Sakura gunship or the Miharu 3d models and go put them for sale on a site such as Turbosquid.

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content derived from Star Army's intellectual property (such as a Nekovalkyrja character), you should ask for Star Army's permission.

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Say Wes, can I grab the Miharu model and put it up for sale on TurboSquid for 40 USD? TurboSquid will have 20 and I'll have the other 20. I've got no problem mentioning it's a prototype Himiko-class escort vessel used by the Star Army of Yamatai in the description.

(this question is hypothetical)

Not unless you give it a skin

Shared copyright is probably the best idea yet Wes.

Alright, so let me get this right...

You're rewording the "bad copyright lingo". I agree with that.

You're letting people retain control of their own creations. I agree with that.

You're admitting that you will use our creations and ideas for profit if you see fit, and won't need our permission. I'm leery, but I'll agree.

We can't use things off the site without YOUR permission. I do not agree with that at all.

If you get to use what we create for profit, we should have the same rights and priviledges. If whatever is posted on the site is the community's to use, ALL of it is for the community to use without catagorizing.

I propose an all or nothing. Either all of what is posted is usable by the community as they see fit, or none of it should be that way. In all fairness if Wes wants to write a book, or create a manga, or whatever, with our stuff, and profits off of that, that's exploitation unless we have given our permission for him to use our things, and the way this whole "Disclaimer" works does not work for that.

If Wes, or anyone else, would like to use something that I created, I would expect them to come to me and ask if they could do that, just as they would expect me to do if I wrote a book or commissioned an artist to draw for me.

I really think that what needs to happen is the whole thing needs to go. I'm sure, if you looked at the link FM provided, you saw that there are a lot of people who want to join SA, but don't because of that factor. Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't the point of this grand sceme of an RP to have people RPing, and moving stories forward? And, that we are sadly lacking enough players to create a thriving community as of late, resulting in people having to take part in more RPs than they are able to handle?

I think, for the good of the RP, what Wes needs to do is take out that disclaimer, and then if he wants to use someone else's stuff to profit, that he swallows his pride and just asks the person if he could use them. Put up a post asking the community if he could turn OUR adventures, (Meaning not just what he did, but what all of us have done to move his idea along to what it currently is), into something that would bring in income to keep the adventures coming.

That is, as usual, just my thoughts.

I disagree. Once you include something in the roleplay and that it becomes 'canon' - as in other players interacted with it - it causes lots of trouble for others when someone goes away in a huff with no intention of letting anyone continue using his contributions on the site again.

Feels familiar? From your pedestal of righteousness, you might think you have a ultimate right to your creations but there are other players in this universe whom might do things alongside those creation and suddenly, with those creations gone many of the player characters past actions suddenly don't make all that much sense.

No, Wes has to be draconian in this regard. It's not just the submitter of the contribution that maters in that instance.

As a counterpoint to this all, Wolfy, I should point out that you're the only person who has voted 'no' for this at all.

Just a heads up.

Alright, you got me, Kotori. A painful jab, but one that I have to admit is truth. I did leave the site in a bit of a huff, because I was not recieving any help on how to make my stuff better. All I got was people ridiculing me, and telling me that the RP would be better without me.

That was a bit of a surprise to me, because I thought that the site was a group of people coming together to enjoy the company of others, and build off of each other's strengths in art, be it written, drawn, spoken, or acted. I'm sorry if you think that that means that I was naive, but it's what I thought.

As for the comment about thinking that the creator of something has ultimate rights to what they create, I have to disagree. If someone creates something, doesn't that mean that they have the right to say how it is used? I mean, by your thinking, that would mean that I could take whatever you created, and do whatever I wanted with it, even if it made NO sense to the way you created it, because it doesn't matter what you, the creator, created it for, I am using it for what I want....Like jumper cables being used for sexual pleasure...*shrug*

Well, my point of view is that my submissions are made in order to make it so that the SARP in itself will be better for it. Since I make them for the SARP, there's no desire or need for me to uproot them if I ever would want to leave the site.

The Miharu's pretty much my creation. It's, at the moment, the best detailed ship on the site. If I ever leave, even if I'm on bad terms with Wes, the Miharu was still submitted to better the SARP, which in turn benefited players and GMs alike in some fashion. If the Miahru disappears, it might inconvenience Wes because he wouldn't be able to use it since I might not giving him permission to use my creation -- but who it would really punish would be the players.

Besides, if I came up with a good submission, I'm confident I can come up with other good submissions. I'm a videogame designer - I have plenty of good ideas, probably more than I'll ever be able to use. What's losing a few to the SARP compared to the good it could do to the players who'd benefit from them?

So, what I'm trying to say is make stuff for the SARP and don't be so picky about ownership issues. Just do it for the SARP. If you don't really want to share it, then don't. If you just want to create a race to have bragging rights on them and show all the others around how awesome you are at creating a race and a culture but aside from that don't really want to submit that race to the cold realities of that setting, then don't. It'll save you a lot of grief, save us a lot of drama and focus more on fun.

The lesson here is: learn to be more self-sacrificing. This stuff doesn't just end up being Wes' to use. And it's not, in the end, only the portrayal of the creator that matters for a submission. It's how others perceive it and how they interpret and use it. It's how your submission gains even more life than it did when you just wrote it up.

Ask Zakalwe what I did with his Custodians and NH-18. He might have had different interpretations of them, but he apparently was very please to see his stuff used at all.

Doshii Jun and I also toyed around with the 5th XF, which is pretty much Andrew's little brainchild. Doshii Jun interpreted the 5th's people while I went around and merrily broke and smashed some of the best stuff Andrew had created merely for dramatic value. I badly bloodied the 5th XF's nose too.

Believe it or not, Andrew actually thanked me for it. Apparently, he ultimately felt it did the 5th XF's some good. Figures.

*raises a hand* I told James that if he wanted to go take the Fenyaro and go make money off them, he should, Wes be damned. So I will take some fault in this.

Wes, I think the change makes sense. And it's a good idea -- it'll save you headaches later. James, what are the chances Wes is going to say no specifically to the Fenyaro? I imagine next to zero.

As for the rest of us, well, if we're really gonna go use our stuff off the site to turn a dime, discuss it with Wes before it's submitted maybe?

Personally this is a very large pet peave of mine. As I did not carge for my services (art or otherwise) I would take offence to someone packageing and selling them. especially without credit or compensation.

actually publishing a SARP "tabeltop" book would be a daunting taks legaly as well as editing involved in compressing the fourms into a game.

More so, since there's absloutely no defined play format.

This entire place is freeform to a certian point, but mainly it's GM's tell a story and we decide to add stuff to it. ~_~

Personally this is a very large pet peave of mine. As I did not carge for my services (art or otherwise) I would take offence to someone packageing and selling them. especially without credit or compensation

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There's no legal issues with making a book (because of the current policy) and the majority of the community supports the idea, as shown in the last SA Town Hall Meeting. The editing, however, will take work, especially if we're going for a novel format. An actual roleplay book wouldn't be so bad (only 125 pages or so, right?).

I'm already changing the policy to be better for the members, but I can only go so far and keep Star Army's IP rights intact. That said, any participation in the community is only allowed for those who agree to the site terms (that is to say, by participating you agree to be legally bound by them). Star Army provides a service - a free place for good RP - and in return I'm only asking to use that RP to help the community continue to expand. I'm putting thousands of dollars into the site a year and making very, very little of that back.

This entire place is freeform to a certain point, but mainly it's GMs tell a story and we decide to add stuff to it.

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Anyone who shows they're a good role-player can GM a plot, though.

Basically, Fred (Kotori) spelt out the reasons why the old and new policies exist.

Hey Wess, I'm Dis Astranagun from the 4chan fourms where we had that debate.

Glad to see the disclaimer is now shared. Getter Emperor seems to have liked it as well, and I'm glad the majority of the community agrees with it

Hey Dis Astranagun, glad to see you here. /m/echanics are always welcome on StarArmy. Take a look around - if you see anything that's confusing or needs work, let us know. Also, if you have any questions, put them in this forum and I'll answer them ASAP. Because Star Army is original, there's kind of a steep learning curve, but I think you'll be able to get the hang of things pretty easily if you browse around for a day or two.