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Copyright Policy Change
- Thread starter Wes
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Cora
Inactive Member
The basic Jist of the copyright change is this.
You own what you make. Wes owns what he makes, We, together, co-own everything on the sarp.
HOWEVER, we only co-own everything IF it's exclusivly on the SARP website and Board.
We can take our property with us when we leave, Wes can keep his property if he leaves.
WE MUST ask if we are allowed to borrow with full credit (and if profit is involved a minor percentage) another's property, or, if non-negotiable, we ask if we can use a mock-up similarity, while remembering to still credit source.
Did I get it right?
You own what you make. Wes owns what he makes, We, together, co-own everything on the sarp.
HOWEVER, we only co-own everything IF it's exclusivly on the SARP website and Board.
We can take our property with us when we leave, Wes can keep his property if he leaves.
WE MUST ask if we are allowed to borrow with full credit (and if profit is involved a minor percentage) another's property, or, if non-negotiable, we ask if we can use a mock-up similarity, while remembering to still credit source.
Did I get it right?
Rabbit Eclair
Inactive Member
Blas said:
So I'm not the only one, heh. I just realized this when I was discussing character concepts with Leutre the other day. I tend to do a lot of recycling of character names and concepts, mostly because I've had something like 70 different RP characters over the past few years, only a few of which stuck around very long. Rather than come up with new character concepts every time I get bored, I tend to re-use old ones that still show promise.
... actually, that's where the Kelenar thing came from. I made up the name for my original Baldur's Gate character on a whim, then re-used it when I couldn't think of a new name for my EverQuest character, then did the same thing for my SWG character, then did the same thing for my CoH character... I think I've had about 10 different incarnations of it, going back to when I was in 7th grade or so.
</offtopic>
MissingNo
Inactive Member
Let me see if I understand this.
The Situation: I create a character of a completely original race that I also create. I play character in the SARP. I decide to move my character to another board or write a book with this character.
However, the character is the only thing used in the book/on the new board. Everything else (other characters, setting, technology, history, everything) is created by me and not directly associated with the SARP. The only things that I use are my created character's appearance, personality, and a history that is re-written and wiped clean of any SARP reference.
On the SARP side, I continue to play the character as I always have on the SARP, nothing changes there. In effect, I have created parallel versions of the same character. The SARP is an isolated universe, neither version of that one character knows of the other.
In the case of races/items/technology/ships: Same situation and, though it would be more difficult, it would not be impossible. All references to the SARP must also be removed, and the player would need to find other causes for the race/item/technology/ship's history or write a completely new one (recommended). This is not impossible, for I have done this sort of rewrite before.
The question: Do I still have to ask permission or pay royalties to Wes/anyone/everyone associated with the SARP site for my use of my original character(s), race(s), item(s), etc. if I am using none of their material? And does this affect the history of the SARP at all since I am not altering or removing the character/race/item/ship/technology from the SARP?
My thoughts would be "No, I do not" and "No, it does not".
That is the main thing I was concerned with when I first found out about the whole copyright thing. The original stance was that once something was posted, it _belonged_ to Wes, and the player was no longer the owner of that submitted item/character. I propose that the creator of any material maintains full rights of that material when used outside of the SARP with no connection to the roleplay. Inside the SARP, Wes shares the rights with the creator of submitted material to use and make a profit for the benefit of the SARP from the sale of what is submitted.
EDIT: You know what, I think what I wrote is basically an example of what Wes has written in his proposition. The only thing missing in my example is if I wanted to include a reference or cameo, whatever, of Star Army-related material, I would just be required to request permission to use such material from the creator and/or Wes.
Is that correct?
As far as someone taking their created material and leaving, I don't know why they would have reason to if there was a provision declaring a lock on all material whose creator is no longer present to supervise its use. That way no one could mis-use a race/item/technology or revive a character that a former player has left behind.
Wow, this is a long post and I have edited it a lot. I think I will wait for someone to reply before posting again...
The Situation: I create a character of a completely original race that I also create. I play character in the SARP. I decide to move my character to another board or write a book with this character.
However, the character is the only thing used in the book/on the new board. Everything else (other characters, setting, technology, history, everything) is created by me and not directly associated with the SARP. The only things that I use are my created character's appearance, personality, and a history that is re-written and wiped clean of any SARP reference.
On the SARP side, I continue to play the character as I always have on the SARP, nothing changes there. In effect, I have created parallel versions of the same character. The SARP is an isolated universe, neither version of that one character knows of the other.
In the case of races/items/technology/ships: Same situation and, though it would be more difficult, it would not be impossible. All references to the SARP must also be removed, and the player would need to find other causes for the race/item/technology/ship's history or write a completely new one (recommended). This is not impossible, for I have done this sort of rewrite before.
The question: Do I still have to ask permission or pay royalties to Wes/anyone/everyone associated with the SARP site for my use of my original character(s), race(s), item(s), etc. if I am using none of their material? And does this affect the history of the SARP at all since I am not altering or removing the character/race/item/ship/technology from the SARP?
My thoughts would be "No, I do not" and "No, it does not".
That is the main thing I was concerned with when I first found out about the whole copyright thing. The original stance was that once something was posted, it _belonged_ to Wes, and the player was no longer the owner of that submitted item/character. I propose that the creator of any material maintains full rights of that material when used outside of the SARP with no connection to the roleplay. Inside the SARP, Wes shares the rights with the creator of submitted material to use and make a profit for the benefit of the SARP from the sale of what is submitted.
EDIT: You know what, I think what I wrote is basically an example of what Wes has written in his proposition. The only thing missing in my example is if I wanted to include a reference or cameo, whatever, of Star Army-related material, I would just be required to request permission to use such material from the creator and/or Wes.
Is that correct?
As far as someone taking their created material and leaving, I don't know why they would have reason to if there was a provision declaring a lock on all material whose creator is no longer present to supervise its use. That way no one could mis-use a race/item/technology or revive a character that a former player has left behind.
Wow, this is a long post and I have edited it a lot. I think I will wait for someone to reply before posting again...
If you're not using SARP stuff, then it's just yours and you need no permission, even if you've use that stuff of yours in the RP.
Once something's been added to the SARP, it cannot be removed except on a case-by-case basis by Wes. History's never affected.
Uh, did you read the earlier posts? This has already been implemented with the new change. Authors now have full rights to submitted material (instead of the rights being forfeited to Star Army) and Star Army has identical licensed rights to use the submitted material (rather than ownership like before).
MissingNo
Inactive Member
Wes said:
Yes, I read the posts, but I'm afraid I read through them a little too fast if I didn't catch that, and I noted my error in the Edit. My apologies.
Thank you for the responses, I just wanted to make sure I understood what was going on this time. One question: Is this change in policy retroactive?
That's a good question, and I'm not really sure if I should (or can) change the ownership of previously submitted content. As of now, the change isn't retroactive. Of course, I'm always willing to work with contributing authors to help them out, including restoring the rights of previously submitted content to its author in exchange for an unlimited license (basically converting it to the new policy).
MissingNo
Inactive Member
That would be understandably difficult for content submitted by past players.
*thinks*
Any thoughts on a usage-lock for content created by a user that is no longer around? I figure such a lock is just common courtesy when it comes to characters and even races, but maybe it would make some people feel more comfortable if it was part of the written policy.
An example: No one plays Acara or his race since his player is no longer active.
This lock would not include restricting references or removing that content altogether. No one could add to it or use it directly, that's all.
*thinks*
Any thoughts on a usage-lock for content created by a user that is no longer around? I figure such a lock is just common courtesy when it comes to characters and even races, but maybe it would make some people feel more comfortable if it was part of the written policy.
An example: No one plays Acara or his race since his player is no longer active.
This lock would not include restricting references or removing that content altogether. No one could add to it or use it directly, that's all.
MissingNo
Inactive Member
I think that's where the discomfort comes in.
Going back to the book scenario, I'm clear that the creator can use his/her material as long as they don't mention the SARP, but if you decide to use a player's character in a piece of original work with or without relation to the SARP (that is, not a transcript of roleplay posts), or alter a transcript in a way that would significantly change a how a character is perceived, does this policy require you to ask permission from the player to use their character(s)? And, if not, does the player have any legal say in how you use their stuff?
Going back to the book scenario, I'm clear that the creator can use his/her material as long as they don't mention the SARP, but if you decide to use a player's character in a piece of original work with or without relation to the SARP (that is, not a transcript of roleplay posts), or alter a transcript in a way that would significantly change a how a character is perceived, does this policy require you to ask permission from the player to use their character(s)? And, if not, does the player have any legal say in how you use their stuff?
Once content's submitted to Star Army, Star Army has the (legal) power to use it in any way which the creator might--so Star Army wouldn't need permission to use characters however it sees best. If a player leaves, that doesn't mean his characters are gone from the RP universe--they might still have new adventures under different players or make cameo appearances under control of game masters.
For characters, the point seems rather moot. If a player comes here, plays a character for a while, then splits to do something else with that char elsewhere, the SARP should still be able to use the character as it was before its player left. Two separate chars would form, I'd bet -- the player's current form of the char, and SARP's version.
Yangfan
Inactive Member
Nick, what if a player decides to leave, for various reasons, and we can't get in contact with him again? We can't just have all the characters suddenly pretend that they never knew or heard about any of the characters / designs / species he's been roleplaying with, right?
Wes, please display the new policy in a prominent place.
Wes, please display the new policy in a prominent place.
MissingNo
Inactive Member
Yangfan, I see what you mean. I'm not saying that there needs to be a removal of every character that disappears, but that doesn't mean that an abandoned character must be used. Going back to the example I made using Acara, he isn't removed from the history. He just quietly faded from the storyline. His player left, and the character is no longer active. Simple as that. All I'm asking for is a lock on anyone taking over abandoned characters and other abandoned content. I'll even give up the work I've been doing on the Melumsi since that was Jenn's race to begin with (I would also like to say that I have written permission from her to create their technology, but not their culture). This lock would not affect my Melumsi characters, since those were mine to begin with (derivative content).
Hmm. There's a good example. The lock, if applied to a race, would prevent anyone adding to the race and their culture beyond what is already present at the time of abandonment. For example, I could not create a device, like a weapon or something that would be in widespread use among a race, and claim it was a piece of common Melumsi tech. I suppose the rule could be like this: "A character cannot be created from an abandoned race. Only characters approved by the creator of the abandoned race may continue play after the creator has left the roleplay. No new technology or culture notes may be added without permission of the creator or after a race has been abandoned."
Of course, stuff directly related to the Star Army (such as the work Thomas has put into the Elysians, or ships and technology that are deeply integrated into the plot/story universe) that is a variation of Wes' original content is of course his, under the category of derivative content, but James' Kohanians and other original races could easily be quietly locked with no harm done if he suddenly decided to leave. I'm not asking for _complete removal_ of abandoned material. There could be references to them, but no one would be allowed to play them.
Doshii, yes, two characters would form. But, say you wanted to make some money off of one of your characters, a non-neko, all-original that you played on the Star Army. At the same time, or before or after, Wes decides to write a book with that same character as a main or significant part of the story. Who owns the copyright? If Wes wanted to sue you for sole use of the name and likeness of that character, he could. And, under the terms of the policy (both the old one and the new revised one) he would win, effectively preventing you from using the name and likeness of that character for monetary gain. This is why copyrights were invented, so a copyright holder could maintain control of their content. The issue here is who holds that copyright.
I'll just say this:
Star Army is merely licensing the creator of posted material the ability to use their own stuff the way they want. Wes still owns all posted content, and the Star Army (Wes) has the final say in all usage of that content. He's just being nice about what he lets you do with it, but he still gets to do whatever he wants, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Everyone, nothing has changed. As far as I can see, this is the same policy with an addendum to let the creator use their own stuff outside of the SARP. While this is a step in the right direction, I see where James is coming from in his concern regarding Wes & Star Army's extensive power over the creations of its members. You can't do a thing (legally) to stop him. However he wants to make the puppets dance, it'll all go down as cannon. Everything you make is no more than fan-fiction, even if you use the character outside of the Star Army.
Hmm. There's a good example. The lock, if applied to a race, would prevent anyone adding to the race and their culture beyond what is already present at the time of abandonment. For example, I could not create a device, like a weapon or something that would be in widespread use among a race, and claim it was a piece of common Melumsi tech. I suppose the rule could be like this: "A character cannot be created from an abandoned race. Only characters approved by the creator of the abandoned race may continue play after the creator has left the roleplay. No new technology or culture notes may be added without permission of the creator or after a race has been abandoned."
Of course, stuff directly related to the Star Army (such as the work Thomas has put into the Elysians, or ships and technology that are deeply integrated into the plot/story universe) that is a variation of Wes' original content is of course his, under the category of derivative content, but James' Kohanians and other original races could easily be quietly locked with no harm done if he suddenly decided to leave. I'm not asking for _complete removal_ of abandoned material. There could be references to them, but no one would be allowed to play them.
Doshii, yes, two characters would form. But, say you wanted to make some money off of one of your characters, a non-neko, all-original that you played on the Star Army. At the same time, or before or after, Wes decides to write a book with that same character as a main or significant part of the story. Who owns the copyright? If Wes wanted to sue you for sole use of the name and likeness of that character, he could. And, under the terms of the policy (both the old one and the new revised one) he would win, effectively preventing you from using the name and likeness of that character for monetary gain. This is why copyrights were invented, so a copyright holder could maintain control of their content. The issue here is who holds that copyright.
I'll just say this:
Star Army is merely licensing the creator of posted material the ability to use their own stuff the way they want. Wes still owns all posted content, and the Star Army (Wes) has the final say in all usage of that content. He's just being nice about what he lets you do with it, but he still gets to do whatever he wants, no ifs, ands, or buts.
Everyone, nothing has changed. As far as I can see, this is the same policy with an addendum to let the creator use their own stuff outside of the SARP. While this is a step in the right direction, I see where James is coming from in his concern regarding Wes & Star Army's extensive power over the creations of its members. You can't do a thing (legally) to stop him. However he wants to make the puppets dance, it'll all go down as cannon. Everything you make is no more than fan-fiction, even if you use the character outside of the Star Army.
That's exactly the opposite of what we should want. People SHOULD fill in the gaps as needed.
The problem with your view is that it's selfish - when you put a race into the SARP (regardless of whether you or Star Army owns it) it's there for the Star Army to enjoy. I'll say that again: The Star Army gets to use content submitted to Star Army...not just the submitter. If I make a species--let's use IDSOLs for example--it's okay for other people to play them, regardless of what I want; I'm only an advisor for the ID-SOLs.
Now this isn't to say I'm going to let people go crazy with each other's submissions--but if someone wants to play within them or build on them, I'm down with that.
You're wrong - the new policy makes it the opposite, with people owning their submissions and Star Army just having a license. Please read it before posting again. I don't see how you could've made the post you did if you had read it.
Here's the new policy again:
And you already replied to this post...
The likelihood of someone going back and using an old character is so close to nil it's not worth considering. As for races ... *shrugs* They get intro'ed into the universe, they should be fleshed out at some point, like Wes said -- Thaxarians are a great example. But since we're kind of busy with other matters, and the Thaxarians are admittedly strange, no one will probably ever bother.
We should take a practical approach with this. Before, Wes was impractical in his usage agreements with us -- now he's being practical. We should do the same.
We should take a practical approach with this. Before, Wes was impractical in his usage agreements with us -- now he's being practical. We should do the same.
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