Faction Manager Cleanup

Wes, to be honest, this is very heavy handed and overall, something that is not a respectable move no matter how it is argued for. As far as I am concerned, this is without any open, transparent warning ahead of time regarding this specific topic, and is very sudden. Perhaps more importantly, these people are being removed without any succeeding people being at least nominated, which is highly disruptive to the site itself as a whole. Eliminating FMs without finding a suitable person to take control afterwards is one of the very best ways to promote instability on Star Army, as their dismissal by itself will upset players. Regardless of your reasoning, you will not be able to persuade them to not be upset. Some will be angry openly, but many others will be angry quietly, and this will fester like a cancer.

Regarding Luca in specific though, as GM of Nepleslia, I would prefer to keep him in his current position. IRL is by no means easy, and during the chatroom yesterday, he was very specifically AT WORK. To reiterate, I wish to keep Luca as my FM; he has done nothing wrong and still tries his best to remain active on the site despite his circumstances. I would prefer it if he did not receive this kind of harsh treatment, as it would be just one more hardship for him to bear, and one more reason to not RP in SARP.

I understand your concerns CadetNewb, but Luca already said that he is leaving our site. It is not possible for me to keep faction managers in their positions if they're not going to stick around. We have to replace him. Additionally, Luca refuses to use the site's chatroom in general--it's not a timezone/schedule issue with the meeting time. The last time he was in chat was May 17, when he was talking to me about how he was leaving the site for the new one he made.

As for finding a new FM for Nepleslia, I feel like you're the best candidate @CadetNewb. You're a Nepleslian GM who is wise, mature, active, and cares about the site and community. I also feel like we have pretty good communication based on all the times we've talked on Skype and in the forums.

Cadetnewb, I want to specify that I support Wes' stance to this degree. At least at Staff level, this isn't new to us, and we had the stance of "as long as we can do it amiably and not burn bridges, let's just let them do thier thing until they are ready to move on".

What spurred Wes to action is that several of these people have built up precedent for showing they really weren't interested in being part of our community. Some became disruptive and became repeat offenders, even. They got reported, and we pay attention to our reports. Especially when it ends up touching on the first experiences of newcomers to our community.

This has been going on at least since May. By June, we had a lot of warning flags that things weren't working out as amiably as we hoped. We're now in august, and things were just getting worse. Gentle overtures had been made before and it didn't help things from going downhill. It was time to take action... and it's still being done in the best spirit possible.

SARP is copyrighted; we're not supposed to let them create a clone site of SARP with material that was submitted and on our wiki. We're not supposed to tolerate duplicates and Wes has the legal tools necessary to give that Clone Site's service provider a cease and desist request with that content. He hasn't gone in that direction. He's been fact been exceedingly accomodating.

The message to take away from this is: you have our blessing to take what you've done here and build a new community elsewhere. By all means, have fun. But stop trying to make us regret being respectful and seeing you not return the favor.

I'm mixed on the public nature of the announcement. I'm not sure what's really gained from it, other than adding a firmness to the implied kick out the door.

But it's done. It won't be taken back.

It's sad to see us lose so many longtime vets.

I've been trying to put it into words, but I think that was the bit I was looking for.

Right now, we've got a shortage of GMs, and we have a lot of the people most likely to GM or are qualified to GM basically leaving the site. The veterans are a core part of the site, yet they are going out the door, mainly because they feel alienated and dissatisfied with various decisions that have been made both recently and in the past. This isn't something that has happened over the course of a few months either, but has been in the works for years. Some people thought it would amount to nothing, but with the rash of departures and now this, I believe this is likely the culmination of everything starting to come together.

I love RPing here on SARP, but stuff like this makes it harder, and harder, and it all starts adding up.

Honestly, I think GMing as it has been portrayed is outright silly. As someone who's run plots with far more mechanics (Tabletops) and far less, it's not something that requires much more beyond a good sense of writing "flow". No one is irreplaceable when it comes to that sort of work, no matter how strongly anyone might feel. The fact that veterans are a core part of the site might be true, but if them leaving is truly a deathblow to the site then it speaks leaps and bounds about the people who didn't leave just not being dependable.

Alienation and dissatisfaction are different cases, which based on what I've seen and heard since arriving I have a good idea over the biggest reason most have probably left, but this doesn't seem rash at all. If people are negative, breaking rules (period), and are active on a different site yet find the need to sporadically appear on SARP, then it makes a very clear-cut line in the sand for how it should be handled. I agree with Doshii that this didn't need to really come out into public because it'll likely add fire to the argument that things here are bad. If people have time to RP and handle another site, but don't have anything else to do beyond talk trash and shit-post in the chat then they need to just be handled quietly. People have been reporting them (supposedly, as I know nothing of all that) for months, which means the majority of the site who ask probably had a good idea of it happening.

As a side note: I disagree with the treatment of Luca even if they've voiced that they're leaving the site. Based on what I know of him, it's quite possible that he has reason to not be in chat. Especially if there's this air of open hostility between the "split" of people deserting SARP. If he leaves, just let him do so on his terms and see if he has an elect for the replacement.

Overall, I figured I'd chime in because it seems there's a lot of real petty undertone to both sides (Sorry Wes and staff, sorry people on the other site) and it's honestly a tell-tale sign that there's things going wrong on SARP. Losing veterans, regardless of how they leave, is never a good thing when they carry so many connections and had such a huge part in the site. As someone who's been around more than enough RPs to see them die, this is the sort of situation that means things need to change before SARP catches the bullet and drops to a crawl of low/sporadic activity.

It's truly sad, however, that these supposed veterans have taken their time to damage the site with the potential pulling of their content as well. Writing in a faction is time-consuming and if you pulled it off after the others were tied into it and things happened, it just makes a headache. Anyone who does that willingly is a piece of shit. Period. Anyway, back to being the love-able new guy.

It's not the start of anything. All this went down back in May already and we're just dealing with mopping up the leftovers at this point. These dudes were already "lost" to Star Army and are mainly just lingering at this point. So I'm saying they need be out of staff/FM/GM positions because because I can see they've basically stopped contributing and because there's a conflict of interest with them being in leadership roles on this site and the clone site. I'm thankful because their presence was good while it lasted. But their golden years are over. I'm not mad at the guys I named up there, but I'm seeing they've moved on or burnt out, so I'm saying if they're leaving, they should just leave. Or at least vacate the faction manager positions so people who still care can take over.

As for content, I don't think much will be pulled from the site. Things left behind might primarily be used for historical reference rather than for an active faction. In my experience, factions tend to run really poorly without the presence of a loving creator.

I've never said this was a deathblow for the site, that's for certain. But, what this is, is making things a lot harder than it should be. People don't enjoy having more on their plate to deal with the same as how Atlas doesn't appreciate having to juggle Earth along with the moon.

The negativity you saw yourself Legix, is something that had come about over a number of years, and isn't something recent. These people we've lost didn't have to be lost if different decisions were made in the past. The list of things is so long, I don't even know where to begin, and won't because it's a headache. People pour in a lot if time, effort and affection into this site, and with that much investment into a good setting like this, people are going to be attached to it. That also means it's a lot easier to hurt people as well, something that many simply don't realize it seems. Doshii is correct, it didn't have to be done this way, and I don't think Luca deserves this sort of treatment either.

He's one of the absolute nicest, most honest guys around and has been a good GM for years; that alone should be a clear indicator about how deep this problem goes. There's petty undertones on both sides, just as you point out, yes, but I don't think that has ever justified something like this here. This is just pouring more fuel on the fire, chases what would otherwise be good people out faster rather than trying to come to an understanding, and makes it a lot harder to do things on SARP in general.

SARP's always been a pretty accommodating website on which to roleplay and worldbuild in a sci-fi setting. Part of facilitating that open sandbox should be to have FMs who want to be here and care to innovate for their faction.

Something tells me that the site staff would, if contacted, give everyone "ousted" in this cleanup the same benefit of the doubt for real life circumstances they've given absent veterans for years. But it's essential that FMs, much less players, enjoy the work they're doing, and at least make token gestures to keep in touch.

This is true, an FM should be active and ideally, enjoy the job. However, this could have been handled a lot better than this.

It's not surprising people leave when they feel new members and old members who already left multiple times, sometimes in a fit, got preferential treatment over others. In many cases doing nothing probably would have been better than catering to people or worrying about the hurt feelings of newer people at the expense of the feelings of people that were actually invested in the site and at the expense of being able to present the image they can't simply complain to get what they want. I bet a lot of people who report negativity were negative themselves. Instead of letting two people be upset with each other and do their own things and eventually go their separate ways people felt the need to sour things by getting involved and taking a side that makes more people upset and upset to a greater extent. It sounds pretty silly to me when someone can report someone else for being negative and then that guy gets told the reporter must remain anonymous when he could just as easily be the instigator or equally bad or lying. An environment shouldn't be created in which whoever cries hurt feelings first wins and whoever cries is treated as the better person when someone not complaining could be a sign of positive character and rushing to a mod could actually be evidence of poor demeanor and lack of desire for genuine communication, compromise and mutual respect. Do we want everyone to save logs of anything that could be construed as negativity for blackmail and contingency purposes? If people can make accusations without being held accountable for them how can people expect honesty or positive conflict resolution? Why should anyone work out differences when they can run to a staffer/moderator and try to ruin someone else's reputation with impunity? Because it's the right thing to do? Do you think people who would think that way will be attracted and stay when this is possible? It's more likely people who enjoy abusing such a system would flock here and the good would be driven out. Why incentivize and weaponize being offended? Being easily offended doesn't inherently mean a person is of greater moral character than someone who is hard to offend. It doesn't make them less likely to commit offensive acts themselves. In fact they might be more likely as they may find it harder to restrain themselves. Incentivizing being offended is incentivizing victimhood. You don't want victimhood to be praised and people who are victors who overcome negativity to be punished.

Typically, when something gets reported, we try to do our homework. At least, I try to.

For example, I see a report about someone being rude in chat. I eye it, and then try to investigate the chat archives, trying to figure out what went on. When I see the spat, I try to get to the beginning of said spat to see how it happened and then follow the train wreck through. Then I eye the contributions of the people involved just to understand thier history, their activity and any past warnings - just to get context.

My process isn't quick. I usually see alerts once I'm at the IT call center I work at, and my calls take precedent. But between calls when I have a breather, I look at these things and take notes. Between that and the homework I do, it typically takes me at least a couple of hours to come to some conclusion.

I remember rudeness being reported, eyeing the history, and coming to the realization that the moment one spark happened that the other wouldn't let go, things escalated... to the point where I didn't feel that the person reporting - whom was a relatively new guy - was in the right because he had stooped to the level of the person he'd reported. I pretty much left it at that. Sometimes arguments are just arguments. Sometimes things get heated because people care about things - sometimes just differently or with differing priorities.

Reporting is a two-edged tool. I won't speak for the other staffers, but be careful that you are in the right when you click on 'report', because I - for one - delve in it pretty deeply. No one is anonymous in chat, and I can see a whole lot of information.

Since it seems that there's going to be a "raid call" for people to assemble, it's clear that someone outed me as a report. Especially when someone comes in here, preaching as if they had witnessed the altercation that led to reports being even mentioned. Quite simply, because I did report Jimmy.

I won't hide behind any anonymous shield, since that seems to be where people expect me speaking out comes from. I reported Jimmy, flatly, because he openly admitted to treating people badly among a sea of other various reasons. He came into chat, bombing the meeting and what had been discussed after the fact purely so he could. Despite not knowing me (he hasn't been active at all in the time I've been on site), he decided to poke fun at me because of my idea. I could go on about how while the discussion was serious and I provided genuine fact, he laughed at me and tried to throw shit at me rather than challenge my idea with factual back-up. As a new member and someone who joined thinking this was a forum and not some site like 4chan, I carried on trying to at least talk civil-like. And during all of that, I was insulted and bashed personally whenever I requested a proper example. I'd been warned to just not indulge him and that's where I was in the wrong, because I should have tagged him with ignore and let it drop. People were drawn in toward the end were there to see exactly what he was doing. He would drop insults and whenever anyone questioned him, Jimmy simply ignored the questions or gave some shit answer back. It was near this point that I snapped and acted harshly, telling him I was done among quite a bit of anger, and it ended.

I reported Jimmy above all because he flat-out said he treats people poorly and because out of the time I've been on the site, he is quite simply the most unpleasant person I've yet to meet. It wasn't "just for a dispute", it is quite simply because he admits to being an asshole. Someone who takes pride in insulting or jabbing at other players to the point it can spark arguments isn't someone that I'd want on any of my sites. The fact that it's clear he's started spreading shit (and effectively drawing out people who aren't very active. The chat hasn't had more people in all the time I've been here) is outright hilarious and even more amusing than the fact that someone came and tried to preach on anonymity being bad. I firmly believe and support the idea of reporting, especially since if he or any of you had asked I'd say it to his/your faces. I didn't report him "just for lulz" or simply because I didn't like him. It was part of it, but his admittance to his behavior and actual behavior is all the reason I needed. If there are other reports, anonymous or not, then it's clear that at the very least it validates argumentative behavior.

TLDR: I'm laughing that someone trashed report features as a way to have staff handle disputes. If you get accused of something and staff approach you, you should be confident enough to dispute the reports or explain them instead of take a shot at the report function. After I got called a child-beater by Jimmy, it's pretty much clear that the report system is necessary to so staff can handle that sort of thing.

I'm not sure what to say now, but, well, I can't leave this like it is. I know some people may feel prosecuted or unjustly wronged, but, I need to point out that this is getting way off topic now.

I agree with Fred, Raz, and Cadetnewb.

Topic locked.