Fred's Propulsion Brainstorming

[Fred]

I believe the bar set for the preparation time of FTL jumps is too low in the wiki article.

As is, currently, a Plumeria-class light gunship would need to prepare 15 seconds to jump to hyperspace to cross over 10 light years, which will take 4 hours to reach.

So, for 4 hours of hyperspace travel (slower ships will take even longer), you only need to stop and charge your drive unit for 15 seconds? I stand as very dubious before that.

My suggestion:
15 seconds initial charge time for 1 light year
+5 seconds additional charge time per extra light year.

That way, it would take...
~ 15 seconds for the first light year, +5 seconds for each extra until...
~ 1 minute to charge for a 10 light year jump,
~ 1m50s to go across 20 light years,
~ 2m40s to go across 30 light years,
~ 3m30s to go across 40 light years,
~ 4m20s to go across 50 light years,
~ 5m10s to go across 60 light years,
~ 6m00s to go across 70 light years.

Or you would always simplify by going for the initial 15s + 5s per extra light year, and every 10 light years after the first takes an extra minute.

That would be:
~ 15 seconds for the first light year, +5 seconds for each extra until...
~ 1 minute to charge for a 10 light year jump,
~ 2 minutes to charge for a 20 light year jump,
~ 3 minutes to charge for a 30 light year jump,
~ 4 minutes to charge for a 40 light year jump,
~ 5 minutes to charge for a 50 light year jump,
~ 6 minutes to charge for a 60 light year jump,
~ 7 minutes to charge for a 70 light year jump.

Remember that by contrast the Abwehrans currently take 1 minute to charge for a 1 light year distance with their fold drives.

 

[Zack]

I suggest you get rid of the time to go into FTL altogether beyond the first 15 seconds. This is so short a time it dosen't really matter and the logical thing to do if you are in trouble is just go 10ly at first, then once you are away, get ready for a longer FTL event.

More importantly what changes will be made to the interdiction article?

Will teleportation and the like still be effected by interdiction and what will be the effect of anti-interdiction?

 

[Fred]

If my plotship needs to stop to change course, and that there's a charge time of 3 minutes based on the distance, I think it's a nice detail to have. Especially in a tense situation when the wait might make things tense.

As for interdiction... so far it looks like that if you're in such a zone, an FTL jump takes longer to prepare (mid-battle jumps seldom happen, and it takes longer to escape). If you FTL into such a zone, you're automatically (pretty much) yanked out of it and into the coterminous position in realspace.

 

[Soresu]

Realistically, speaking. Beyond the first 15 seconds of charging is indeed...a little out there. We have power sources capable of many orders of magnitudes higher output then anything known by current science, let alone fictional tech. 15 second initial charge seems fair, as you have to siphon power into the device, let it boot up, calculate your jump and then go. 'Charging', any longer just doesn't seem remotely possible considering Hyperspace Taps, and Aether draw on forces that could very likely, near instantly power this thing, so 15 seconds if more or less a courtesy.

Heck, you could even siphon off power from say, shields, or weapons to shave off a few seconds in a pinch I imagine for that added dramatic flair. You know, you'll have reduced power for offensive, or defensive systems for the time being, but the risk is worth it or something.

In regard to the Abwehrans: I think they have access to only Heavy Water Fission/Fusion powerplants at present. (I could be wrong.) So that charge time is necessitated out of commonsense. You won't have your fold drives charged at the drop of a hat using it.

 

[Fred]

The first 15 seconds of charging is 'a little out there' when the previous fold engines took from a minute to 20 to charge to fold?

I think it's a huge improvement.

Let's not forget the faucet analogy too. There's only so much power coming out of an aether generator, hyperspace tap, or anything ZPE-related - it just doesn't run out. Unlimited fuel does not meant unlimited power at one time. I'm also unconvinced that aether power is that dramatically over that of other power sources like M/AM and fusion to the point of making them obsolete (not equal and better? yes).

Aether's power generation is also still pretty much heat-based. Heat - probably plasma - which is converted into mechanical energy which is then converted into electricity. M/AM and fusion work the same way in that aspect.

 

[Zack]

15 seconds is the forming time for the event, not the charge time for the engines.

Your faucet analogy is also wrong, you can fill anything instantly with aether, you are only limited by your ability to use it. After all aether weapons are just aether generators putting their energy out towards the 'bad guys' and aether bombs are just aether generators that bring in to much energy at once (destroying the generator).

You can power an FTL event with a briefcase sized aether generator. To put that in perspective you need a planet's worth of anti-matter. So any physical fuel source just doesn't measure up to aether at all.

Aether's power generation is also not heat based, or at least not in the way you describe it. Heat can not be converted into mechanical energy in any meaningful way nor does aether require mechanical movement to create electricity. After all, the same scalar fields that generate aether can be used to directly stimulate electrical current. Heat still has to be removed from the system (hence the power bandwidth concept)

 

[Soresu]

Uh, Fred, as I said. Beyond the first 15. Beyond. Not the first.

Well, Aether, and Hyperspace Taps draw on forces outside of the normal domain of reality, and bends the laws we normally know of. Realistically speaking, M/AM, and Fusion are obsolete in regards to serious output when using high powered gadgetry (Fold Drives, likely some STL Engines and shields.). If we use the present Miharu-Class as an example, you have four Aether Generators to power it, this, doesn't cut it. You require capacitor banks. However, if you were to use M/AM or Fusion instead, with your present configuration, you likely wouldn't have much room on your ship, if any at all.

Aether's power is not only heat based, Fred, it creates exotic particles from what I understand of it, also releasing radiation. M/AM work on the principal of total energy release, not just heat. Fission as it stands, is just a giant steam turbine. (Current Nuclear Reactors.) Fusion, would likely work much the same way IRL. It'd just be a lot cleaner. I've read a few descriptions of Aether Generators, and a half blossom like shape on either side of a swirling mass of pure energy doesn't seem to be purely plasma, purely heat, it is energy. Pure, energy. The descriptions on Aether Generator workings is extremely sketchy, and very vague.

So, really, we're just making assumptions based on what we've read, or how we personally interpret. This is really why I wish it was better explained so we can get a better, clearer picture and understanding of it, and avoid the hub bub and debates.

 

[Fred]

Turbo Aether Plasma Drives are a form of high-speed slower-than-light propulsion in which a starship engine draws raw energy from The Aether and accelerates it in a supercharged plasma form from the ship through a subspace acceleration tunnel array.

Following this, and having talked to Wes over IRC about it... raw energy pretty much stands in for high-energy plasma. An aether shock cannon tries to turn stuff in high-energy plasma. The Turbo Aether Plasma Drives create it and then use it as a propellant... but inside a ship's power supply it seems only natural that it'd be harnessed for power as any heat-based system would do. In fact, that's really convenient because this provides tangible machinery for PC characters to fix rather than vague gadgetry.

Your flower petals could very well be your scalar and EM electronics. Scalar rays would make that small singularity that had aether flush out, becoming plasma in our side of reality. Manetic containment would keep it in place between the petal assembly and then the heat it'd produced would be harnessed and distributed to the power generator, power converter and capacitor parts of the power supply.

Also, additionally, most anti-matter weaponry in this setting doesn't seem to be that obsolete. We certainly see our share of positron cannons and they aren't weak. At best, they'd seem to indicate that anti-matter is something like 80% of what aether can dish out. That's not my description of 'weak by contrast'.

 

[Zack]

Anti-matter weaponry is kinda obsolete, just people don't know it.

For example, if you accelerate something past .8c it is going to hit like anti-matter regardless of what it is made of, meaning using anti-matter in your rail guns is a waste of good anti-matter.

Also, keep in mind that a small amount of anti-matter can be used up while a single small aether generator can destroy a planet if you leave it on. Hardly a mere 20% difference. If you really want to contrast it you will find that for equivalent mass/size aether is going to have infinitely more power density than anti-matter.

 

[Soresu]

-Epically Facepalms.-

I never said "Anti-Matter Weaponry is obsolete." As a power source it is in contrast. You're basing your assumptions on the weapon aspects purely on the damage it does to a hull or shields. Which is flawed. In comparison to the energy demands and needs of most systems beyond weaponry, Anti-Matter, on its own, does, not, cut, it..

You need many more generators in regard to what two or three aether generators do. If you try to power a car on a Double A battery, it won't run. If you throw it at someone, and hit them on the head, it hurts. If you cut one open, and let the acid leak on to your exposed skin, it is harmful. Anti-Matter is the same. As a power source, considering the systems used (On a majority of ships on here.), their scope, and complexity, it doesn't cut it, or requires many more generators. As a weapon, it works well since it isn't powering something, it's just slamming into your hull, and letting matter-anti-matter annihilation do the rest.

Also, if this is how aether truly is. Then it is nothing more then a glorified plasma generator (I would also like to point out, that if Aether does come from another domain, it would bombard a target with exotic particles, radiation and 'Trans-Dimensional Energy', not plasma. In order to make plasma, you're going to have to super heat something, and it is going to have to have the capacity to become plasma. Plasma is more or less the fourth state of matter. Aether Shock Cannons, to my knowledge also don't utilize Magnetic Fields, and therefore isn't plasma based. I should also point out, due to the oft times oddity of our materials on here, it is unclear if some of them can even achieve a plasma state, this also means if "Aether Cannons try to turn you into Super Heated Plasma" all I have to do is make an extremely heat resistant material, and I nullify a majority of the damaging effects). Plain and simple.


This also makes it a inferior/superior power source in guise of what it was said to be. This also makes it delicate and prone to break down should one of your moving mechanical parts goes awry.

This also makes it spotty in contrast to how it was described before, This also makes it in many ways, inferior to some systems. In some, superior. Thusly, if it as is you have stated. Then it isn't as superior as it was made out to be. I however, remain woefully unconvinced. I should also note, this as a result, makes the power source extremely confusing as it seems to be ever changing.

 

[Fred]

...incredibly intense scalar interference pulse that causes a tear in the fabric of space-time. When this occurs, all energy potentials in the target area are released into real space simultaneously, causing catastrophic destruction.

Sounds like plasma to me.

 

[Soresu]

"Releasing the energy potential in matter" sounds like plasma to me.

That's an Anti-Matter reaction buddy.

EDIT: I reiterate. "Thats an Anti-Matter Reaction, Buddy."

EDIT of an EDIT: Plasma changes the state of matter into an ionized gas. It doesn't release "All Energy Potentials."

EDIT of an EDIT of an EDIT: I would also like to note, that if Aether does this on a weaponized scale. I would imagine it would make 'Dead Space'. Or, be so harmful to the universe, that it is a poison in regards to universal entropy, or decay. And therefore, extremely bad. (It may also decrease performance of an Aetheric Generator if you try to draw energy from that area. I am very unsure of this however.)

 

[Fred]

You reply too quickly. I had edited my post a bit. ^_^;

 

[Soresu]

I also had to edit mine.

 

[Fred]

Okay, so...

What's so wrong about it being a glorified plasma generator anyways? I thought you were the one that said that this sort of thing was okay, given it was a sci-fi setting and such.

Honestly, what I want is for my engine room to have an 'anatomy' and have people like Tom and Gallant understand what is going on. I could do that with anti-matter. I can do that with an aether power supply being a 'glorified plasma generator'. I can't do that with what Uso describes.

Similarly, it doesn't look like Wes' Turbo Aether Plasma drives would be possible either with Uso's arguments.

 

[Soresu]

Okay, so...

What's so wrong about it being a glorified plasma generator anyways? I thought you were the one that said that this sort of thing was okay, given it was a sci-fi setting and such.

Honestly, what I want is for my engine room to have an 'anatomy' and have people like Tom and Gallant understand what is going on. I could do that with anti-matter. I can do that with an aether power supply being a 'glorified plasma generator'. I can't do that with what Uso describes.

Basically, you want to turn a power source that was supposed to have "Unlimited power, scopeless power. Something beyond what we know." only governed by the draw of the generator, into a plasma generator. Take something that was stated more or less to be trans-dimensional energy, and turn it into a plasma generator. You're wanting to warp the canon to this. I stated it was ok, I am however, opposed to such rapid, and rampant changes to something that was deeply embedded and ingrained as being this one thing, over a period of seven years, and going. "Oh, it's a Plasma Generator now."

Where is the rationale, reasoning, evidence, canon proof, to back this all up? How do we know, people past, or present, or future (who may read old material) won't ask, "Hey, why did you change this?" and become skeptical of how well we're handling canon, and as a result, elements fundamental to the site as a whole.

 

[Fred]

Well, firstly, there's how Wes interpreted the Turbo Aether Plasma Drive.

Secondly, there's how Wes has been stressing that most aether-powered weapons don't directly shoot out aether beams (a.k.a. scalar rays?) except Aether Shock Arrays.

Thirdly... aether generators are about as well detailed as a cardboard box with a marker pen having been used to write 'aether generator' on it.

Fourth... the source of aether power is limitless. The amount of power provided never was.

Based on that, I find the mention of 'canon' in that regard equally flimsy. I'm personally heavily in favor of everything that keeps what we have in SARP more easily interactable by the player-base... hence my stance on it. There are actually very few people whom care how exactly aether makes power... but there are a lot more whom are interested in knowing what their character can do in engineering to do this or that. My interest is in catering to them.

 

[Soresu]

Well, firstly, there's how Wes interpreted the Turbo Aether Plasma Drive.

It can be a derivative. We do have energy to mass converters.

Secondly, there's how Wes has been stressing that most aether-powered weapons don't directly shoot out aether beams (a.k.a. scalar rays?) except Aether Shock Arrays.

Scalar Fields

Thirdly... aether generators are about as well detailed as a cardboard box with a marker pen having been used to write 'aether generator' on it.

From how aether itself is described, and what is known of the interactions, the generator itself can be guessed at to a varying degree of accuracy.

Fourth... the source of aether power is limitless. The amount of power provided never was.

I stated this already. "The energy draw" of the generator has been stated as the limiter in the past.

Based on that, I find the mention of 'canon' in that regard equally flimsy. I'm personally heavily in favor of everything that keeps what we have in SARP more easily interactable by the player-base... hence my stance on it. There are actually very few people whom care how exactly aether makes power... but there are a lot more whom are interested in knowing what their character can do in engineering to do this or that. My interest is in catering to them.

From how you've spoken over the last few posts, across several threads, and changes. You've been all for changing, there have been opposition, you got your DR changes, you got your speed standard. It is based on 'Well I think." That, is flimsy. I don't feel like changing seven years worth of built up belief, written documentation, JP's, SP's, Plots, and writings all for , "I want to change this." You change it, you change the universe, you change the universe, you're changing, and making moot what has been built upon all this time unless absolutely necessary. Word, for, word.

If you want to change it so much, use it in your plot, don't enforce your beliefs on how it should work on a site wide whole that could have a possibly drastic, possibly extremely confusing effect, and make seven years of player work, and interaction moot without taking every facet and possibility into consideration, as well as how this may effect the very nature of interaction and understanding of such a thing. Heck, make it a variant of the design, a 'safer alternative'. The possibilities there are very wide, and offer your players just as many opportunities.

It could be a backup, or possible replacement, alternative, or any number of things as it also gives you a chance to see how well people take to it from an IC viewpoint through it actively being used on a limited scale before possible site wide change, much like how companies do their products, and customer feedback.

 

[Fred]

Your "I think" just as much as my "I think", Soresu. That doesn't make either wrong, either in desire or interpretation. I was also not spoiled - if things I recommended in the past came to be, they were because they made sense.

While 'indulging me' in making my own stunted little thing is a nice enough suggestion... if you have a conceivable perception of how it works, why didn't you share it?

"This is what powers the scalar field in the first place, this is the assembly in which the scalar fields is made that draws energy out of aether, this is how the energy is drawn out and collected, and this is how it's being distributed in the ship."

"If this is damaged, then this happens. This could be how you can fix it. Be careful about this, because damage here could have this or this consequence."

With Matter/Anti-Matter, I have matter and anti-matter storage (AM having mag containment), an injector assembly which pushes them in the reactor (also mag containment), then a reaction that generates heat (electro-plasma?) which is harnessed by the reactor coolant system, which is then transmitted to generator assemblies that in turn produce power for the rest of the ship.

If any part of an M/A-M reactor takes damage, I know I can tell my players what is damaged, what it entails and how it can be dealt with. Sadly, aether power does not give me the same advantage.

This said, we could haggle overlong, but by this point... I just want Wes to cut in and say what he'd want or like in this aspect first.

 

[Soresu]

"You think" just as much as "I think", Soresu. That doesn't make either wrong, either in desire or interpretation. I was also not spoiled - if things I recommended in the past came to be, they were because they made sense.

Yes, I do think. Thank you for noticing. I also did not infer you were spoiled. I was infering, "You've had this, and this done. Why this now?"

While 'indulging me' in making my own stunted little thing is a nice enough suggestion... if you have a conceivable perception of how it works, why didn't you share it?

Didn't I already say it?

"This is what powers the scalar field in the first place, this is the assembly in which the scalar fields is made that draws energy out of aether, this is how the energy is drawn out and collected, and this is how it's being distributed in the ship."

I should also like to note, as you have said, it isn't well described. Therefore, interpretation is key. Neither mine, nor your view of it maybe the correct, or wanted view. I was also of the assumption, the generator classes, and complexities varied from ship class to ship class. Due to specific ship designs, dimensions, requirements and the like. Which, leaves it free to interpretation, or description of a given ship classes' generator.

"If this is damaged, then this happens. This could be how you can fix it. Be careful about this, because damage here could have this or this consequence."

Didn't I already say, "Why not try your view of it, in your plot, and get some feed back."?

With Matter/Anti-Matter, I have matter and anti-matter storage (AM having mag containment), an injector assembly which pushes them in the reactor (also mag containment), then a reaction that generates heat (electro-plasma?) which is harnessed by the reactor coolant system, which is then transmitted to generator assemblies that in turn produce power for the rest of the ship.

You're diverging from the main issue, Aether.

However, your anti-matter generators would also require a great deal of space, power for containment, storage, and mass.

If any part of an M/A-M reactor takes damage, I know I can tell my players what is damaged, what it entails and how it can be dealt with. Sadly, aether power does not give me the same advantage.

You'd likely explode if your reactor was damaged. If containment failed that is. I've often utilized my own view, or takes on how the Aether Generator worked on the Asamoya, even coming up with parts, panels, consoles, and the like. All you need is a little bit of effort to explain your ships variant on the design of the generator, it's housing and the like.

This said, we could haggle overlong, but by this point... I just want Wes to cut in and say what he'd want or like in this aspect first.