[Game Mechanics] Moving at the Speed of SARP

[Zack]

Most people will ignore the rules like they do now.

The science noobs can just refer to the second table to find out how long it will take to get from point A to point B, less math is required to do this than to figure it out using a constant speed value anyways.
It will also let you know what ship can catch up to what ship without needing additional math which is nice.

The remainder of players will be able to use an acceleration value to roughly estimate things like being able to dodge incoming fire to 'will I run into my own weapons when I shoot them?'.

So I see no downside to this.

I'd also like to point out that GMs rarely get along nicely. We've already had numerous problems with this in the past that could have been avoided with better rules. We already have rules for this that need improving so why not improve them to be more accurate?

 

[Soresu]

The science noobs

I'm glad you're calling people science noobs now. :\ Could've phrased that nicer, just a tiny bit insulting there.

The remainder of players will be able to use an acceleration value to roughly estimate things like being able to dodge incoming fire to 'will I run into my own weapons when I shoot them?'.

So I see no downside to this.

I'd rather not bring out my calculator every time, thanks. And I'd rather not involve math in my RP experience unless it enhances the story, not bring headaches. There is your downside. What if we don't want to use charts and graphs, or dredge up stuff from early college and high school? Some people like to hammer away at numbers and complicate matters until they are worse then trying to go through the DMV, other's, like to keep things smooth and simple.

It isn't a hard thing, really, I mean, the current system seems to have been working nicely until this was brought up. Complaints we're minimal, so instead of trying to tack on more stuff, how about we just take what we got, re-evaluate it, by actually changing some speeds around instead of 'Uniform'? Either way Uso, whither you think so or not, either way things will come racing right back to this if this is even considered.

I'd also like to point out that GMs rarely get along nicely. We've already had numerous problems with this in the past that could have been avoided with better rules. We already have rules for this that need improving so why not improve them to be more accurate?

Because, you stifle people with enough rules, Uso, things get less fun. Things get choked, and people leave, or get frustrated which leads to confrontations we're not dictators, we enjoy our freedoms in regards to our RP experience thank you. Putting the 'Ol' Spit'in Shine' on the rules will serve us to what end? No, wait, I know you're going to respond anyways, you always do. But I'm going to say it anyways.

The only reason why we have had these 'Problems in the past' is due to poor communication, being on the same footing, and above all else, using that two letter word you seem to think that fails. Common Sense. And I will add another few, Respect, Common Decency, and oh yes, Fun. All these things you can't put rules on. You just do them.

And frankly, we DO get along, but remember we're Human afterall, and we will have our disagreements. But, you know what? We move on, we get along, and we try to enjoy ourselves.

 

[Wes]

Why not just say that a ship's listed STL "max speed" is the max it can accelerate in X minutes - this way there are no numbers changed or edits needed.

 

[Fred]

It feels a little dumb to me. Isn't gravimetric technology a staple of Sublight propulsion? Those are essentially inertialess drives, whom can propel a ship in the same 'falling in the direction you want' method as CDD does, except on a smaller scale.

That's instant acceleration.

Also, I can't say I like the concept of adding in acceleration in a more concrete fashion to SARP. From where I'm concerned, trying to make ship speed more or less match things which happen in Wes' plot so that the statistics we use actually matches what he does and prefers is heads-over-heels better than having Wes try and adjust himself so that his things make more sense. I'd rather it be the reverse. Then, it makes what he does make sense because the backend of the setting's tech supports it.

Soresu raised a worry over the speed nerf on torpedoes not rally matching ship drive speeds. That's how this started.

I pointed out that the Sublight speed most ships had were so high that it made obstacles in space such as planets trivial and that it made it unfeasible to cross over more hazardous terrain at such speeds too.

I also pointed out that the inter-planetary speeds used by ships could usually cross the distances within a star system in an eyeblink. I think that's more like teleportation and in a way a disservice to ourselves in regards to making things inside a star system matter more.

Exhack's opening post was about using much lower STL speed for starship combat, in a fashion that might mean more sense considering sublight speed combat and obstacles as I pointed out earlier. However, there's still are rationales to think over as to what would compel a ship to stay at sublight speed constantly with devices like the instant-FTL speed CDD as well as devicing how to keep ships in sublight or not with foresight on the idea that sometimes, they need to be able to run away too... and in less than ideal situations where few ships are involved.

 

[Zack]

It feels a little dumb to me. Isn't gravimetric technology a staple of Sublight propulsion? Those are essentially inertialess drives, whom can propel a ship in the same 'falling in the direction you want' method as CDD does, except on a smaller scale.

That's instant acceleration.

No, and No.

Gravimetric drives are highly inefficient engines requiring the same amount of power as a planet to produce 1g of acceleration and loosing vast amounts of acceleration with increased distance to physical objects. Though this isn't a big deal if you have limitless power (aether).

Also using gravity to push off of things is by definition a reaction drive.

For that matter the CDD's STL abilities have been quietly phased out for a while now.

And instant acceleration? Of course acceleration is instant, its a measure of the rate of change at any given moment. Speed is something you can have instantly without infinite energy.


The speed nerf didn't work, so why would nerfing the speed again fix things? The acceleration based rules seem to be the only way to fix this.

 

[Soresu]

Because, adding another layer of complexity it and to the setting could potentially un-nerve/scare off new players. :| Imo anyways. So why don't we stop thinking so realistically, and remind ourselves, it is a game, gaaaaaame.

 

[Zack]

And good games require a good rule set.

Acceleration values, or the top speed being a function of acceleration vs time, solve the majority of the issues with the current speed system. New players will see it as just another stat and increased complexity of the star ship template hasn't scared off people. If anything the trend has been for increasing complexity of the star ship template and increased participation in star ship design.

 

[Soresu]

And good game developers know just how far to push in terms of establishing rules, over complicating it, and how their players would take to it. Some games have failed due to 'good rule sets' as you seem bent on wanting.

Also, look again Uso and check the join dates compared to people submitting designs before responding to that. People pretty much have to learn, or dredge up stuff taught in school to design on here as is. And now you wish to add another layer of complexity to it to what, I've only seen you advocating this change zealously.

If anything the trend has been for increasing complexity of the star ship template and increased participation in star ship design.

You wish to increase participation? Keep things simple, and not daunting. When I joined, it took me literally months before I submitted anything, and that was just a dinky bracelet.

 

[Zack]

What of anything has ever failed because of its good attributes?

We aren't talking about AV:T or voidstalker type gameplay where you manage one ship, its fuel, loadout, vectors, and the like. We're talking about adding or modifying a stat to fix a serious problem with the game rules. Yeah people have to learn a bit about the setting and apply common sense to their ship designs but on the other hand letting people submit thoughtless designs will pretty much end the tech-forum entirely. If you learn a thing or two in the process of your submission all the better.

 

[Soresu]

Ah, but see had we used Common Sense from he start this wouldn't have come up. I'm happy to see you also now think Common Sense plays a role in ship designs, which it should. Which it could still do without this.

 

[Zack]

Unfortunately most people don't have good common sense which is why there are rules to help people get it right.

Common sense would imply there is no such thing as a reaction-less drive. It would also imply there is no such thing as a max speed for a space ship (not counting C for obvious reasons). It would also dictate that we add an acceleration value of some sort to ships because it doesn't make sense to keep the current max-speed rating.

 

[Soresu]

And for the hundredth time, it would also imply this is a text based role playing website where stuffy old dead guys who figured out your 'Laws of Physics' would not apply to every little thing. It would also imply that this is ment to be fun. It would also mean we're here to have fun, and not get headaches over such a thing that you wish to complicate. It would also suggest people come here to seek entertainment from their real life trivialities and enjoy themselves. It would also be good if we remember, RP site means RP universe means we get to use our imagination and not get a ticket for violating the laws of physics due to this once again being a place of fictional role play.

 

[Wes]

What about just replacing their speeds with a speed scale (slow, normal, fast, faster, fastest) where a ship's level is determined by the location and size of the STL engines on its artwork crossed with the technology used?

In any case, we can't adjust speeds until the various STL engines are listed and well defined in the wiki.

 

[Zack]

If we go that route we should have an acceleration value or at least an approximate value for each speed rating.

 

[Soresu]

-Squirts Uso with a water bottle for bringing acceleration up again.-

Would involve people giving a 'rear view' shot of their designs as well, Wes.

 

[Zack]

You wouldn't need a rear view, just a shot that shows the engines. Wouldn't be to hard as most people already have DOGA art for their ships.

Also I strongly suggest that if we do this that engines be rated based on efficiency, not tech. It would give a more accurate picture of ship acceleration to know how big the engine is x its efficiency as an engine or something along those lines. That way we don't accidentally nerf the spacers and don't give an unfair advantage to people who just throw technobabble into their submissions and hope for the best.

 

[Soresu]

You wouldn't need a rear view, just a shot that shows the engines. Wouldn't be to hard as most people already have DOGA art for their ships.

Also I strongly suggest that if we do this that engines be rated based on efficiency, not tech. It would give a more accurate picture of ship acceleration to know how big the engine is x its efficiency as an engine or something along those lines. That way we don't accidentally nerf the spacers and don't give an unfair advantage to people who just throw technobabble into their submissions and hope for the best.

...Seriously, rethink the first part of your post...it is a bit contridictory :| Engines are normally situated at the rear, Uso because due to some DoGA parts, a rear view is preferable over a top, or side to see the engines. And I would think tech plays a role in engine efficiency too, wouldn't it? And it isn't technobabble when this is an rp setting, Uso, we don't completely adhere to physicsbabble you know.

 

[Zack]

In most ships you can see where the engines are mounted from just about any angle. Drawing a few lines and applying basic math will get you a really good estimate of engine size when using a top down or even a forwardish angle view of most ships.

Also, tech plays only a partial role in engine efficiency. There are upper limits to what you can do with certain engines regardless of tech aptitude of a race.

Also, technobabel by definition is technobabel even if it is in a RP setting.

 

[Soresu]

You mean 'babble' right?

 

[Kai]

I would much rather take 10 seconds getting a rear view of my ship in DOGA than 10 minutes trying to do *shudder* math....