Map Distance Increase?

I would say remove the extra data, it is in my opinion cluttered.

Some systems you have three separate lines of text, in some areas, the proximity of the other systems makes the text too close together and it becomes a wall of text.

Just list the name of the system if it has one and make the color of the text reflect the owning government.

Limit the marks on the map to
System names
Terroritories
Stellar objects, eg Nebulas

*nods* *nods* Yeah, I can see how the information would is a little oversaturated in some areas; though the primary reason for the second line of text was to make certain a person could tell who a system belongs to. Of course the colored system title serves that purpose, but for folks like Fred who are color blind and might not be able to see all the colors I use, I added a written indication of who owns a system as well. The flags in the old map served the same purpose, but I didn't really like the look of that and they also took up loads of space.

The text which indicates whether or not a planet is a homeworld though, I suppose is mostly superfluous as well. I'll probably make two versions; one with the extra text and one where I just delete all the other unwanted words.

The font is Microstyle Bold Extended ATT; it doesn't come with a bold option because as its name suggests it is pretty much is 'bold' by default. I chose it because that was the font being used in the old clustered map system, it looks a little sci-fi-ish and it can still be read fairly easily once I half the resolution from my 9000x9000 pixel copy of the map to the smaller version for internet upload. Turning it from a 250+ megabyte image to an 8 meg .jpeg makes my computer groan.

The color aspect can be easily handled by puting a three letter code in paran e.g. Daichi (YSE) , Yamatai (YSE) * asterisk to indicate the capital, or another symbol . for the capital, and perhaps a symbol to identify a regions capital.

*nods* I'll consider that

I'm really liking what you've done her Khasidel - it's looking very crisp and to the point. For distances, we could try having the coordinates of each location on a separate list for people to calculate them on their own using the formula, but alternately, we could do what a lot of maps do as well. I don't know how well it would work, but assuming we can get the map to display in the proper scale on people's screens, an inch can equal so and so lightyears. Its imprecise, but quick, assuming the people in question have a ruler. Additionally, any discrepancies in travel time derived from there can be handwaved as being 'environmental' effects.

Inches...
The U.S. is the most powerful nation on earth in almost every aspect, but literally uses a medieval age's measurements system.
If there's a god: May he let rain brains upon that country! *duck and run*

I agree with what everyone's said. visually, it's a nice look but it is rather text-heavy.

Also, No Ake? ;-;

Old habits die hard. At the least, we use metric with the important stuff.

It's also a matter of majority, Ratte. Most members are American, and many don't have anything handy to measure metric, or know the conversions. So it makes more sense to plan for the largest group.

I know, just wanted to troll a bit. Was more a joke than seriousness.
In some extend I even give the measurements in U.S. system in the wiki, especially when it comes to temperatures.
To the topic: I actually like maps that contain lots of information, e.g. the spacelanes on the current map. But the color code on Khasidel's map is definitely better that the flags.

I posted earlier that I didn't want to change the distances between the star systems because it would violate our existing canon; however, I want to note that:

• A visual update to the map would be welcome. I actually attempted to commission one a while back but I had to back out because of costs (I wanted to hire Tyler Young, the guy who painted the site's background nebula, to remake the map for $400).
• We could change the scale of the map.
• We can add new zones. *We'd want to do something where we're not horizontally scrolling like the current map.
• When I get a new map set up, It's got to have layers so it's easy to change. The current map is old school and is all on one layer.

Also some sort of interactive map that can zoom in and out would be amazing, but I'm not sure where to start with that.

Wes,
The site has gone through worse retcons, like the complete elimination of the FTL DeadZones around the KMZ and the removal of anti-FTL technology. That recon made the entire NMX Blockade nonsense because they couldn't have done it. Which also made events that the Aeon went through at the start of the war meaningless. But you did not complain about that retcon.

In this case, it is a minor retcon, and does not really change the past. For example Nepleslia is very close to Yamatai in relation to the rest of the settled worlds. It still will be, because the rest of the worlds are all much further after the change. No one is going to say, wow, Nepleslia was only 10 LY away the last time we went there. When the map gets rescaled, all players would just accept that its always been that far.

The longer travel times can be used in a variety of ways. For a plot that wants some social time, they can roleplay what's going on aboard ship. Or if the GM wants to just time skip for the sake of plot. Like you often do. That's fine, but it means for example. Instead of being 30 minutes to destination perhaps its now a couple of hours. That is time the characters have more IC time to make their preparations. To often there have been instances of characters making preparations, and while they are still doing it, poof they are there before they are done.

In Traveller it takes a week to make a jump 1-6 parsecs. When I ran campaigns in it sometimes we would roleplay important events during that time. Other times we would skip it but the characters could be training during that. In fact I created a training system for Traveller because my one complaint with the Classic system was that your character was static, and we all know people learn new skills all the time.

The same can be done here on SARP.

As for your ideas, they have merit and would be good. But I still feel we need to expand the distances to give SARP the proper feel.

I think Nash has hit the nail on the head. The retcon to distances would be FAR less intrusive than some of the things we've retconned back out of the setting (anyone else still remember some of the leftovers from Ayenee?), and it WOULD have a great impact on the RP, especially since it would basically only have one of two effects. GMs who don't want the extra time, just time skip it like they always have with long time periods, and GMs who do want time actually HAVE time without having to make up a ton of silly excuses.

I'm all for getting a new map, and massively improving it, but I also really feel we should get what we already have fixed before we start spending time on something new. As it is? A new map would make it prettier, and that's it. All of the complaints set out in this thread would apply just as much to that, as to the current map.

I can't possibly say it better than they have myself. The change has absolutely no negative impact to roleplay and only adds more opportunities for the Game Masters and Players to do so. The Cluster Map was approved, but we haven't implemented it yet for numerous reasons, so we haven't gotten a new map either. But, along with the Cluster Map, we were also to have this very same distance retcon be applied as it was an intended part of the maps itself. Unable to do the Cluster Map, why not implement this portion of it?

Just looking at the sample, it's clear that Khasidel has done an absolutely wonderful job, but it honestly wouldn't add anything that matters to the players themselves and the gameplay they'd go through. It'd just look a ton nicer and be easier to read. A distance increase however, would give something very tangible and meaningful to the playerbase. So why not have a new map, and the distanace increase? We can't go for the cluster map at this point due to the effort not being there, but his new map, with updated distances would be a wonderful addition to SARP that would add to and help it grow.

The change has absolutely no negative impact to roleplay and only adds more opportunities

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It's a huge OOC threat to my faction's IC national security and the "opportunities" it adds are thinly-veiled opportunities for enemy forces getting away with more before the Star Army can respond. The Yamatai Star Empire is the size I want it to be. It already takes Eucharis 2 days to cross Yamatai at maximum speed, I don't want it to be 4. As the geographically largest empire in SARP, the YSE would be disproportionately affected in an adverse way.

So your only reason against it is that a realistic geographical problem of maintaining and having a large, spread out empire isn't something you enjoy? Really?

Wes, no offense, but that's horrendous. If you can't think of ways to protect the empire as it is, just because there's a bit of distance, that might be a hint that something should be changed. Something as big as Yamatai is SHOULDN'T be easily defended. Not without stupidly large numbers of ships, which would impact the way of life of the citizens. Heck, I just wrote you a great development point for Yamatai. Plots can work around the fact that there aren't enough ships to go around! Helps explain why our plotships tend to operate solo or in small groups a lot better, and gives a great ongoing discussion IC to Yamatai's governing bodies and citizens. It would also help explain why a nation as tough as Yamatai is has gotten utterly wrecked multiple times. If they're spread thin trying to defend, that would be the perfect explanation for why it always takes us a few years to wind up and really kick big bads back out. We have to consolidate, reinforce, and direct our forces.

Honestly, I have yet to see a complaint about the idea that can't very easily be integrated into existing canon, or answered, but I'm seeing no good reasons on how it would HURT things. Heck, the fact that a Plumeria could cross 250 ly in just under 5 days, even sticking to the stated speed, not the "hidden military speed" is ridiculous enough. But to say you're against the distance increase because of the size of Yamatai is silly.

Wes, the thing is most of the time the Eucharis folds to its destination. At that speed the Eucharis can go from the NE border to beyond the KMZ in 3.3 hours.

Aendri said:

So your only reason against it is that a realistic geographical problem of maintaining and having a large, spread out empire isn't something you enjoy?

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No. The primary reason is still that because the distances between the systems are a permanent, deeply established canon of the SARPiverse. I've already said this in my previous posts. It's the same reason the cluster map system could never be successful as it was originally proposed. It's critical that the universe has consistency with its past.

Okay, I'm going to drop a bus on what is looking like a circuitous argument. You know, since I'm blunt, arrogant, and evil.

Wes, you can stop wasting your time and ours by making an official pronouncement that the scale for the Starmap won't change because you don't want it to. It doesn't matter if you bring up a reason like "just because" (and that's what you're bringing to the table from my perspective).

However, note that you're the only one so far whom seems attached to this. The only one whom appears to see advantages (seen as inconsistent/ephemereal) by others, whereas they've listed what they saw as many advantage to making a switch in that direction.

No. The primary reason is still that because the distances between the systems are a permanent, deeply established canon of the SARPiverse. I've already said this in my previous posts. It's the same reason the cluster map system could never be successful as it was originally proposed. It's critical that the universe has consistency with its past.

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Emphasis mine. If this is what you're getting hung up on, I think it is hypocritical. SARP has had worse offense in its history. Want one? At the time I joined, we were fighting the First Mishhuvurthyar War. The Star Army, operating on rather lean fleets, were fending off the Mishhu and taking losses. Huge losses. It showed in the roleplay of every plotship involved that it was grim and taxing. And then you decided to end the war, by bringing out from apparently nowhere two million bloody warships that you claimed had always been there, held in reserve for some unfathomable reason, while Yamatai lost warships, crewmembers, territory, whole inhabited starsystems to a Mishhu zerg Yamatai had always been able to stop with those millions of ships. It made our effort to roleplay hardships irrelevantly laughable because it had never been necessary.

So, consistency my eye. If we survived that, we can survive a starmap rescaling. ~_~

People asking here to retcon is done on the basis that they feel the current scale is something that comes from that initial scale being a poor foundation. They're trying to address damage - like redressing a tree that wasn't growing straight. That's why your arguments appear to pale in thier eyes. To them, once that's addressed, maybe the still-uber-high-speeds of starships (arguably another form of lingering damage that comes from your past need to one-up anything that came from Ayenee) will feel more contextually correct. Maybe space will feel appropriately bigger from your audience as well. That's probably what they hope, the bone they're hoping to get from all of this.

But, all that I've just written - all that they've written - it doesn't matter. Not if you've already made up your mind.

Wes said:

It's a huge OOC threat to my faction's IC national security and the "opportunities" it adds are thinly-veiled opportunities for enemy forces getting away with more before the Star Army can respond. The Yamatai Star Empire is the size I want it to be. It already takes Eucharis 2 days to cross Yamatai at maximum speed, I don't want it to be 4. As the geographically largest empire in SARP, the YSE would be disproportionately affected in an adverse way.

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Wes, that's flat out wrong. Out of Character, nothing bad will ever happen to an FM's faction unless they give it the green light, no matter how much any group of players, a GM or a plot wants something to happen. Period. There's no if, and, or but. Hell, even an SM shouldn't be able to cause harm to a faction without the FM's go-ahead, unless they're horribly absent or something. This very same rule that goes for anyone else's faction applies equally to Yamatai as it does to every other.

Out of Character, Meta-Gaming and all that, Yamatai is 100% Safe from Destruction so long as you will it Wes. This is fact. Utterly non-negotiable.

In Character though? If we don't even have the potential for some trouble, then we got that much less to actually do as GMs. Less to provide to our players and entertain them with. Less to tell a story with. We can have dinky little adventures, but it's far more likely that there'd be no sense of greatness, grave risk and so on. There'd be no room for it. Hell, having it be believable that disaster could happen is why the Miharu was great. What started small slowly snowballed into something of epic proportions that threatened everything the player characters and their players held dear. But really didn't unless the FM (You Wes) gave the ok. Even if you don't give the ok for some stuff to actually go down, this map change lets us have the ability to have it Look like something will happen even though it won't. That's what really matters.

It's like those kinds of movies where, even though all this stuff is going on, and you have this great story with action, drama, comedy and what have you, you as the viewer know that in the end, everything will be fine. But to have that movie, it's gotta look like trouble's brewing. Luke Skywalker? Of course he was going to blow up the Death Star. But it wouldn't be exciting at all if it didn't seem like there was risk, danger and therefore a sense of adventure.

That's what this Map Distance Increase is all about. Looking like trouble is going to come along and screw us all over. Even though, in the end of the day, it really won't and the Ewoks will be playing their music and doing their silly dancing as the NMX Ultra-Dreadnaught explodes in orbit.

Something like that.