Approved Submission [Mechanic] Damage Rating Revision

[Eistheid]

Submission Type: Narrative driven damage guidelines.
Submission URL: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=fred_s_damage_rating_revision

Notes: Much of default the form doesn't really apply since this isn't a typical setting submission. I hope you don't mind me removing those components.

This is probably going to take some work to get finalized. I will however be more than happy to fill in blanks and update this as we go along. Additionally post-approval I'll be happy to update old DR values as needed, likely including both systems for a while to smooth over the transition.

A final note, the article will probably need to be moved to a new page location as I believe the current one is just WIP storage.

As has been determined the final call of what is done comes down to GM fiat. As such it is best to view this as intended: A set of guidelines to help players and GMs understand the effects of what they're working with rather than hard rules that must be adhered to.

 

[Fred]

Wes and I had a discussion over this. SP doesn't directly translate like that. DRv3 is more interested in what the item is rather than taking what the hitpoints of DRv2 said as an absolute.

The Mindy IV is a light power armor. Most aspects of its superiority are based on the design being state-of-the-art (article description) and being plated with zesuaium armor.

Wes had some trouble conceiving that the Daisy could outdo the Mindy in any fashion. The argument "it's important for me that the Mindy and Daisy be equal" was raised when addressing their scale. However, I showed him reference pictures that clearly outlined how much taller the average-user would be in a Daisy compared to the more diminutive Mindy IV - the M6 richly deserves its Medium Power Armor spot and if it and the Mindy IV both used yama-dura armor, the greater girth and plating on the Daisy would win out.


That's about an helmet higher. It's the first big jump in size in all the human-sized personnel category. The Mindy is still about human-sized; one of its perk is that it can cross through doorways most of the time with ease. One of the criteria defining a Medium power armor is that it doesn't fit through normal office doorsills (6'8" high) anymore and the Daisy, whom goes from 6'10" to 8' feet depending on whom wears it, qualifies. If a Daisy wants to cross a office-sized door, it'll have to bend down to go squeeze through.

A Mindy IV and a Daisy are certainly not equal. The Mindy IV is in many ways superior. The GM that knows how to portrays zesuaium will be well aware that it comes with a wide-array of qualities that render the wearer immune-to-greatly resilient to many forms of damage. That's something that always needed to be counted for, and even the DRv2's measly +2SP didn't reflect the actual wonder of the material. It's in portraying it that the Mindy IV secures its spot over the summit of the power armor 'food chain'.

There's also the matter of identity, in which the Mindy as a light armor was able to teleport because to was a light armor, and do so while bringing significant payload with it. Whereas there's compelling reasons for the Daisy to not be a teleporter (power supply and weight would make it hard to bring a significant amount of weaponry). And for all of the Mindy IV advantages, being inexpensive and durable was about all the Daisy had going for it in the goal of being an inbetween point between LAMIA and NAM's larger power armors.



The criteria for heavy armor is that they have trouble fighting in an office's corridor. The Hostile is not greatly taller that the Daisy, but it has such girth and size that it would be hard for it to fire a rifle from the shoulder and turn around without scrapping itself into the nearby walls - it really just barely fits.

Wes' next argument was that the Daisy shouldn't be that big, but it's not one I bent on: the Daisy was designed by Doshii and unless Doshii accepts to bend to Wes' perception that the Daisy was just as diminutive as the Mindy when its article reveals it was anything but that (the M6 was the primary armor used during the Miharu plot, and its bigger size was why I could have non-nekos in them fighting against smaller Black Mindy armors), that didn't fly for me. I suggested to Wes that he could just upscale the Mindy IV is he cared that much for the Mindy IV to be as tough (if using the same materials) but I got no response on that front.

What we do know for sure given their articles is that the M6 Daisy is medium, and that the M2 Mindy II is light. Even the M7 SARAH is light. I know the Daisy II is actually much smaller and qualifies in Wes' ideal that both armors are closer. In effect, there's no point in adjusting the Daisy's size, when the Daisy II is already at the scale Wes wants. But if I only put the Daisy II and the Mindy IV in the listing, I end up with 2 light armors and no medium armor to give for example.

Wes was secure in that the M2 Mindy II was light and the M6 Daisy was Medium, so, those are the examples given. That way, I don't end up putting contrasting information he'd be reluctant to support. If I can get another Medium armor example in, I could then omit the Daisy, and insert both Daisy II and Mindy IV in. For the moment, I don't have any that come to mind, so until that can be achieved the current examples felt like the best compromise possible.

 

[raz]

That was a lot of text to say that you don't want to stat it. Maybe Wes can, then. It'd be really nice to know where the Star Army's premier power armor lies in terms of capability according to the new DR system.

Now, a tangent since you brought it up:

Wes' next argument was that the Daisy shouldn't be that big

I actually agree with this. The stat page may say it's yuge (wtf at 6'8" for a standard wearer?), but actual RP that's taken place and art shows (Rolf's a 5'2" manlet and his feet can't be anywhere else than the suit's boots) it's literally just a hardsuit like the Mindy. Maybe the article needs to be fixed.

EDIT: A Daisy with a 5'3" Neko in it is almost as tall as a Keiko or Kirie. I am 100% certain nobody has ever imagined that a Daisy is anywhere near the size of a THOUGHT armor.

 

[Fred]

I offered the benefit of transparency. I thought you warranted the effort.

The Mindy IV's size lands it plainly in light power armor, as covered in the NTSE guidelines on size which are included in the DRv3 article. It's plated in zesuaium. There's no problem statting it on its own page.

Can the Mindy 4 be added to the tier list somewhere?

This was, after all, what you asked. Not "can you go stat the Mindy IV on its own article?" That's different. Could I? Sure. Should I? Wes generally doesn't like me changing things in his articles, which is why we have a thread in the Staff forum where I have this long list of stuff I give consultation for, and then Wes decides if he greenflags those changes or not.
Obviously, an article doesn't require being entered as an example to have its own stats.

I'd also would point out Doshii and I aren't nobody, especially considering how Doshii made it and I made the most use of it during Miharu (and roleplayers like Tom and Nyton, whom have tall characters benefitting from that greater size, are certainly not nobodies either, thanks). The Daisy's article plainly states how the power armor is capable of adjusting itself and fills itself with HS material to compensate for smaller users, and is - on average - 6'10" (6'8" are the doorsills). If you have something to say to Doshii Jun regarding altering the Daisy submission, you can raise the topic to him; I try to avoid messing with the articles of others without consultation and discussion over the matter - the argument I gave to Wes is the same with you. For the moment, I take the stats as seen in the article.

Even if the Daisy could be adjusted, I don't see much of a point. Like I told Wes, it can just be phased out for the Daisy II, which is at your prefered size.

Since my primary concern is making sure there's some example left to show for medium power armor and why I'm trying to compromise, going constructively about it without having to mess with the submissions of anyone could be to just nominate an unit that'd fit.

 

[raz]

Still, the Mindy 4 should be on the table or quick reference. It's, like, the Star Army's mainline power armor.

 

[Syaoran]

Just a refrence, the Daisy was actually made to generally be used by Nepleslian heritage people (at least from what I grasp) that's why it's so big. At the time it was made the Mindy didn't really support people who were 6 foot tall.

 

[Fred]

Pretty much Syaoran.

Back when the ground armors had been designed, Doshii Jun and I bounced ideas off each other. I made the M4, he made the M5. Despite approval, we observed neither of them really worked out. Doshii then pushed the M6 out, which was pretty amazing by contrast.

The M6 was supposed to do something different than other KFY armors, which were very 'Knight Saber Hardsuit' styled. The point was bridging the difference between them and the tougher suits the NDI had (which eventually became the precursors for the NAM Terratech line of power armors). So, I never had any problem picturing it similarily as a 'Samus Aran Power Suit' style of machine. Or at least, I don't have any trouble there before I've had the insight into that development.

 

[raz]

I've been around since before its inception and read all of the relevant RP—multiple plots have used the Daisy extensively—and never once has it been depicted as this massive, hulking machine when worn by short soldiers. Ever. No special accommodations for its storage have been made and it's always been donned with the same armor racks that Mindys use, unlike the Keiko, which is "sooo big" that it has to be stored differently.

Anyway, neither here nor there. It's up to @Wes or maybe @Doshii Jun to correct if they want, and not particularly relevant to the thread. Just talking about it because Fred mentioned it.

Anyway: pls add Yamatai's most important armor to the quick reference, it's what most players will be using going forward.

 

[Fred]

Already done, Raz. The example now says "M2 Mindy" rather than "M2 Mindy II". The link itself pointed to the main page for all Mindy variants, the Mark IV amongst them.

All Mindy power armors are Light Armors, after all.

 

[Wes]

I still don't understand why the DAISY would be significantly taller than a MINDY, and I feel like as the standard of power armors in general, the Mindy should be a medium armor while light armors should be armors that are notably "lighter than the average power armor." It seems like leaving the Mindy in the light armor tier would also put it at a huge disadvantage (to the point where I'd question why we're even using it, or alternatively why are we even using the DR v3 system).

 

[Syaoran]

I still don't understand why the DAISY would be significantly taller than a MINDY, and I feel like as the standard of power armors in general, the Mindy should be a medium armor while light armors should be armors that are notably "lighter than the average power armor." It seems like leaving the Mindy in the light armor tier would also put it at a huge disadvantage (to the point where I'd question why we're even using it, or alternatively why are we even using the DR v3 system).

Well you can't really be lighter than a Mindy and still be a full body power armor. You could in theory be weaker than it, but you can't be smaller than barely taller than the user. Cause then you're personnel Armor. It also doesn't create a huge disadvantage, because the way PA do armaments anyway, it'd be up to the GM to decide if they can run with their load out. The only real 'disadvantage' is that a Daisy constructed in exactly the same way as a Mindy would take hits slightly better. But it has more mass so that's kind of reasonable.

 

[Fred]

@Wes
the Mindy is a LAMIA: Light Advanced Mechanized Infantry Armor. You've designed an ultra-light and highly conformal suit of armor. You describe it as ultra-thin and extremely flexible. It's the style choice you've adopted. It is a standard, for light power armor. You made that choice a long time ago.

But you hate being one-upped. Despite that, it's fact that Nepleslia fields bigger, heftier power armors. It's fact that the Daisy was designed as an inbetween. It hasn't stopped the Mindy from being regarded as a wildly successful light power armor.

Is your preference of light gunships somehow a failure of the damage rating article when you always return to those as your favorite rides to show off? You could raise the same argument: why have a Plumeria when it's so vulnerable in comparison to the bigger battleships you often enjoy having it face? But Wes ~ if you make a medium gunship sturdier, faster and stronger than most light cruisers... what's the point of having light cruisers? I've repeatedly told you that you could overrule me, but I've been trying to avoid opening the 'preferential treatment' can of worm all along to shield you from criticism later on.

Somehow along the line, you've never seemed to feel you needed to be accountable for the style choice of prefering a glass cannon. To me, that indicates a failure to accept give-and-take more than a failure of DRv3, which in this case is more impartial; DRv3 doesn't just cover the Mindy, it depicts a settingful of very different items. The Mindy is one of them, distinctive in its own ways.

* * *

In the end, knowing where the Mindy IV is situated is pretty simple.
You look up it's size. We compare with the NTSE size chart. Clearly, most still fit under a 6'8" doorsill, and the Mindy is touted as being able to get anywhere, so calling it 'light power armor' seems quite appropriate.
The material is zesuaium, which, combined with the state-of-the-art tech in the Mindy IV's article, shows how much Yamatai invested in it. How much to the forefront it is. And it's always been like that before anyways, that doesn't change.

In the meanwhile, yes, it's normal for a medium power armor to soak more punishment. Assuming a 6' suit of armor has proportionally plated all over, it's normal that a weapon that could put a big hole it in would put a proportionally smaller hole in a bigger 7'5" armor. It's common sense, really.

If you envy heavier plating on a power armor, then you have to invest in it and make a bigger power armor. That's not what the Mindy IV is, you made a teleporter and you've established that teleportation is limited by mass. What you've made already comes beautifully together, especially with the expensive zesuaium to secure the threat the Mindy IV poses against bigger unit and its powerful aether weaponry.

I already told you "Wes, you can adjust it's size to fit as a medium armor if you want and it'll be that" already. That's still on the table, if that's what you want the Mindy IV to be. It's all within your choices, you just have to pick the one you want. Or give the Mindy IV the preferential treatment you feel it deserves, despite the now well-defined and justifiable scaling difference between power armor. But if you decide to fudge these numbers, that's on you, not me (though I submit it'll make an unsuitable example, but again, feel free to overrule me - I'm just trying to treat it impartially since you named me the guru for this).

* * *

Edit:
Another thing we could look into is the size criteria for light, medium and heavy power armors.

Right now it's set as:
Light: Anything that fits within a door frame, exemplified by most Ketsurui Fleet Yard LAMIA, including the Mindy.
Medium: Something that's bigger and has more trouble crossing a doorframe, but can still function within a corridor. Currently represented by the Daisy.
Heavy: Something that's of larger girth, enough to be in a thight squeeze in most office corridors. Currently represented by the Hostile.

If there should be different criteria for scale, then this could be looked into. From my end, this seemed to cover most power armor proportions seen in SARP. The Mindy armor just happens to be in the lower third... but so are many others.

 

[raz]

Honestly, I have never been under the impression that tiers in v3 were purely descriptors of size, nor that the damage a specific piece of tech could take would be tied directly to its size. If that's always been the case, it was never clear.

The previous system allowed for technologically advanced factions to have sturdiness beyond their tech's weight class through however many SP the tech was approved with. Is it now policy that someone couldn't make a "light armor" with the same defensive capability as a "heavy armor" simply because of how big it is and what the tier is named?

Are you saying a Mindy 4 has less capacity to take damage than technology it was written and designed to be better than? Because, as it stands, putting it at Tier 4 makes it no more useful than the previous models it is intended to replace. And it puts the Mindy 4 at a far inferior stature to other armors it was designed to match on the battlefield if the situation arose.

Also, for the record, the Daisy is a LAMIA, too. Says so right in the first line of the article. So it's a light armor that has been given a bigger DR tier because it's apparently freakishly tall.

 

[Fred]

Please tell me what is not clear about this:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:damage_rating_v3#what_size_do_i_fit_in

Please tell me what is not clear about a list of tiers showing units that are generally larger than each other as the list goes on.

Please tell me which Mindy IV you'd expect could proportionally soak the most punishment: The normal one at 6', or a custom-built one that towers up to 6'10"? My money is on the latter one, since it's going to be proportionally plated (thickness of armor plates will match its size if meant to be conformal). If the smaller one is plated in Zesuaium, then it profits from all the advantages of zesuaium. If the larger one isn't, then it's just running with yama-dura.

Because zesuaium confers immunities, the smaller Mindy ends up being able to handle much more punishment from many sources than the larger one. If both are zesuaium plated, then the advantage goes back to the larger 6'10" version.

This strikes me as normal.

• If a Big Guy A punches Big Guy B, it's bound to hurt Big Guy B.
• If Big Guy A punches Small Guy C, odds are Small Guy C will hurt more than Big Guy B did.
• If Small Guy D wears armor that makes him 'immune to punches', then he gains an obvious advantage over Big Guy B and ends up in fact being much tougher than Big Guy B against punches.

Small Guy D is the Mindy IV, Big Guy B is the Daisy.

 

[raz]

since it's going to be proportionally plated

I am fairly certain that all Mindy armors have the same armor thickness, regardless of user size. The armor plating on a 5-foot-nothing Neko's Mindy 4 is exactly the same as armor plating on a 6-foot Elysian's M2-4E.

Because zesuaium confers immunities, the smaller Mindy ends up being able to handle much more punishment from many sources than the larger one.

And the system does not address this at all. The only things that addresses this being able to place tech in an appropriate defensive tier regardless of size or GM interpretation. The latter doesn't help gauge defensive strength within the system itself, and the former apparently isn't allowed.

In v3, you compare offensive tier to defensive tier and then get a damage descriptor that tells you the severity of damage. So, as it stands, a Mindy 4 will take more damage than a grossly inferior Daisy that's 10 years old from the same weapon.

 

[Fred]

I present to you armor materials, which cover exactly what you say is not being covered:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:damage_rating_v3#armor

As of your interpretation on thickness, you just skirted around my example rather than take it truly in consideration.

The normal one at 6', or a custom-built one that towers up to 6'10"? My money is on the latter one, since it's going to be proportionally plated (thickness of armor plates will match its size if meant to be conformal).

I already established the thickness wouldn't be the same.

I already offered avenues for improvement - which really seem to be the point in dispute here. If someone has a better idea of other power armors - using similar materials - could be weaker than a Mindy without being an hardsuit or classified as 'unarmored', I'm open to constructive suggestions.

'Small', 'Medium' and 'Large'? The Mindy is still super-diminutive by design. Nekos are small. >_>

'Basic', 'Advanced', 'Very Advanced'? We'll just end up swarmed by 'Advanced' armors and it reinstate technological levels that have never worked out well before and re-encourages arm races to a degree.

...hence why I felt the current 'light', 'medium' and 'large' were the most representative of power armors throughout our setting as a whole. The size guideline I made and thought Wes had approved of seemed apt, but I'm only one person. Maybe someone else has a better idea on how to address scale and increasing tier.

To me, though, this remains a rather strange protest of "why is my glass cannon not tough"? A refusal to commit to style and caveat, while allowing room of other things that are differently designed their own chance to shine.

 

[raz]

To me, though, this remains a rather strange protest of "why is my glass cannon not tough"? A refusal to commit to style and caveat

The Star Army's mainline power armor have never been a glass cannon. Moreover, the tiers that the faction's power armors have been placed in directly change the character and style of the tech as previously established in DRv2.

 

[Fred]

And you base that on what? How many times the Mindy was treated informally or refered to in the NTSE as a speed demon and a glass cannon? Often.

On a SP system that made zesuaium have only +2SP when it was in fact immune to a bunch of things?

The rough conversion section points out that the SP 6+ to 10 will likely sit between Light and Medium, the variable being their size.

There is absolutely no problem in a zesuaium sheathed Mindy power armor being threatened by an aether beam. It has been depicted that way on repetition in Wes' plot. Being a light power armor is not a problem. Your perception of it being a problem and of bigger things being out there and having merits of their own is. The critique over the Daisy's greater resilience due to girth is plainly silly - the Mindy was sitting for most of its life in DRv2 as 6SP (with optional zesuaium plating) and the Daisy at 8SP until very recently and this cemented the Daisy is tougher for most of its operational time.

Right now, the medium-sized Daisy's resilience is the only redeeming point of this power armor in contrast to the Mindy IV. The only one! The Mindy is practically better in every other way?

I don't see the problem in accepting that other things have their pros too. I don't see the problem in roleplaying a Mindy IV, taking a few medium anti-armor autocannon rounds in the chest, and then have the GM go "Your AIES gave you alarming warnings regarding your machine's titanium framework, but otherwise you're undamaged". A Daisy in the same situation might have been destroyed.

Your argument is invalid. And circuitous - you more than made your point. Please be constructive if you continue posting.

@Wes
I told you the Mindy was doing okay. I richly backed why the Mindy was doing okay. You never complained back when the Mindy was SP6 and the NAM power armors were SP15ish. There's no reason to complain about this. The Mindy isn't any less misrepresented than before, the value of zesuaium is just expressed differently: not through points, but through qualities. You yourself in your own plots have hurt the zesuaium armored Mindy 1Fs in ways very similar (i.e.: when Pumpkin abducted Kotori and Hanako, a NIWS was cutting Jo Midori to ribbons) - I'm not vouching for anything I haven't seen you do before with a zesuaium-armored Mindy.

The Daisy being medium and happening to have a slight advantage in sturdiness is inconsequential. What else does the Daisy do better than the Mindy? Nothing? Yes, nothing. And you can just brush it under the rug and use the Daisy II instead. Just give me another medium power armor to use as example, if you have any idea: because the Daisy was the one that seemed to qualify and was well known. Or, if I really have to, I'll leave it blank.

Or is it how light, medium and heavy armor was scaled that you are opposed on? I showed it to you and you seemed to approve of it until it sinked in that the light Mindy would be treated as light (I'd go obviously, but that's just me). I thought I nailed the scale requirements Cadetnewb told me to do by basing it off where power armor could squeeze into.
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:damage_rating_v3#what_size_do_i_fit_in
If you've got a better idea, please let me know. Please don't go "I don't like this" and offer me nothing in return; I get entirely too much of that.

 

[Syaoran]

Reading over everything, I think there is a point people are missing...somehow. The size chart is not to say that "Medium size armor will always be stronger than light armor" The size chart is to say "A piece of medium grade equipment will be more resilient than a piece of light grade equipment, assuming they were constructed out of comparable materials. If the Mindy IV was made out of the same stuff as the Daisy, it would be less resilient. But it's -not- made out of the same stuff, it's made out of much 'stronger' stuff. It might have less 'hp' so to speak, but it's 'defense' stat is way higher. If you used a Mindy IV and a DaisyI right now with this system and had them get hit by the same attacks, the daisy would break first. Because its armor is considered 'normal' while the Mindy's is 'high tech'.

 

[Navian]

Size and weight class shouldn't always be closely linked. There are military vehicles the size of heavy tanks that are less well protected than light tanks, and the same seems likely to go for some powered armours, and especially spaceships, which don't have to worry about gravity and could therefore easily have a density of anywhere from 0.2 to more than 20, depending on composition.

I'd personally like to see the 'light powered armour' class reserved for things like scout suits and the heavier sort of exosuits. High-tech powered armours are often depicted as both tougher and more light-weight and formfitting than low-tech models in sci-fi, and if 'weight class' is literally dependent on just size or even weight instead of also including tech and materials, we can't model that effectively. There are some workarounds, but using them seems more awkward than just having some flexibility in definitions.

Iit makes sense to me that the Mindy is what the other 'weight classes', or tiers, for powered armours are based around; that some armours weighing twice as much as it (or more, for partial armours) could count as light; and that it would be theoretically possible, with tech far more advanced than even Yamatai has easy access to, to build something that functions as 'heavy powered armour', despite having almost as little bulk as an AMES.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about this, though.

 

[Syaoran]

Navian I think my post answers a few of your concerns. They came out at the same time though.