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Approved Submission [Mechanic] Damage Rating (Version 3) Update

F

FrostJaeger

Banned Member
Submission URL
https://stararmy.com/wiki/doku.php?id=guide:damage_rating_v3
Submission Faction(s)
  1. Yamatai (except Elysia)
  2. Nepleslia
  3. Elysia
  4. Poku (HSC)
  6. Iromakuanhe
  7. Non-Playable Factions
  8. Outlaws (Independent)
  9. Neshaten
Submission Terms
  1. I agree
For Reviewers:
Also tagging:
  • @Fred, as he’s the submission's original creator.
  • @Soresu, as this submission includes the Devil.
Anyhoo, here’s the list of changes...
  • Tiers 4 through 6 (Light Armor through Heavy Armor) have had their size descriptions updated to include numerical guidelines; additionally, the descriptions now share a common “theme” - namely, the height of a standard doorway - and include a footnote-thingie (whose precise name I can’t recall at the moment) that lists said height.
  • Tiers 7 through 15 (Light Mecha through Heavy Capital Ship) have had their size descriptions updated.
    • Tier 7 units now range from 5 to 11 meters in length, width, or height, which overlaps nicely with the upper limits of Tier 6 units and accounts for a wider variety of pre-existing submissions.
    • Tier 8 units now range from 9 to 21 meters in length, width, or height, which overlaps nicely with the upper limits of Tier 7 units and accounts for a wider variety of pre-existing submissions.
    • Tier 9 units are those that measure 21 or more meters in length, width, or height, which overlaps nicely with the upper limits of Tier 10 units and accounts for a wider variety of pre-existing submissions.
    • Tier 10 units now range from 50 to125 meters in length, which fits nicely with Tier 9’s dimensions (around 21 or more meters in size), overlaps nicely with the lower guideline of Tier 11 (100 meters), and follows the pattern set by Tier 13’s new guidelines (500 to 1,250 meters in length).
    • Tier 11 units now range from 100 to 275 meters in length, which overlaps nicely with the upper guideline of Tier 10 (125 meters) and the lower guideline of Tier 12 (250 meters).
    • Tier 12 units now range from 250 to 625 meters in length, which overlaps nicely with the upper guideline of Tier 11 (275 meters) and the lower guideline of Tier 13 (500 meters).
    • Tier 13 units now range from 500 to 1,250 meters in length, which overlaps nicely with the upper guideline of Tier 12 (600 meters), overlaps nicely with the lower guideline of Tier 14 (1,000 meters), and follows the pattern set by Tier 10's new guidelines (50 to 125 meters in length).
    • Tier 14 units now range from 1,000 to 2,500 meters in length, which overlaps nicely with the upper guideline of Tier 13 (1,250 meters).
    • Tier 15 units are now those which are 2,500 meters or more in length, which matches up with the pattern set by Tier 12’s lower guideline (250 meters).
  • Corrected various minor grammar and spelling errors.
  • Added numerous links to other wiki articles.
  • Added lots of a few more examples to the Tiers section. See the next spoiler for more information.
  • Standardized the damage descriptions in the Examples of Use section, where possible.
  • Added an OOC Notes section.
  • Added a note to the beginning of the What Size Do I Fit In? section that states the following:
    The "What Size Do I Fit In?" section said:
    //Note: The sizes listed in the following table are averages, not hard values. Deviation from them __**within reason**__ is acceptable.//((What is considered "acceptable" is ultimately at the discretion of the individual [[guide:reviewing_submissions|reviewing]] the submission.))
    Click to expand...
...and here's the list of what was changed in the Tiers section:
Edit: Updated to reflect this post and this post.
Edit #2: Updated to reflect this post.
Edit #3: Updated to reflect this post.

Note: This thread is NOT for discussing the current revision of the Damage Rating (Version 3) system. Off-topic posts will be reported to staff members.
 
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My initial reaction was rather negative. I wish I had been given a heads-up that this sort of thing was under work. The standouts for me was how medium power armor was adapted (mostly because I had at least one armor that did fit in there), and removing the overlaps in the capital ships... which I considered good for flexibility (not all ships are born equal in terms of length... and when you get that big, I wanted to be more accomodating than just "You have to be long").

Then, I pondered how I would express that... and then thought I mostly had lame arguments to offer. I figured I was conservatively kneejerking... and I've faced similar when I hatch something ambitious and other people just kneejerk to it - not pleasant, and I 'm not keen to do it to others. So, I tried seeing the submissions in another light. Be more open-minded, yeah. x_x

Technically, it has merits. Frostjaeger was very thorough, placed annotations and precisions that I think may be useful. Text corrections didn't translate into massively rewording things and what the article is meant to convey is still conveyed. So there's more quality of life in there. If other people like Wes and other reviewers are agreeable with the revised values, I think I can get over my conservatism and refrain from complaining.

I find that he's been a bit overzealous with the examples. The tables are now really dense, which makes them less easy to skim through. It's the reason I only had a few; to make it more breathable and easier to reference. This is one spot I think the thoroughness backfired and I'd recommend a trimming down where possible (more acronyms, less redundancy if a suitable example for the tier category was already given).

If @Wes is to come and approve this, one example I'd propose up for reconsideration would be the Sharie's aether turrets? Wes was divided last time I proposed that value even when I compared its double-barreled nature nearly equalling the Plumeria's main weapon array - and thus convincing him of Tier 12 being suitable for it (at the time, anyways). Now that the weapon allotment per ship was increased, perhaps this can be reconsidered? Then he can decide if T12 is a suitable value for what are effectively the secondary weapons of that battleship.
 
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Good points, @Fred, and my apologies for not informing you of this ahead of time. >.<

The medium power armor, uh, “conversion” came after @Legix, myself, and...Alex, I think, had a conversation in #setting-design a couple of weeks ago regarding the tiers of Nepleslian PAs and the Anthedon. Although I don’t remember much of what was said - thanks to the argument that my (unwarranted and misplaced, in hindsight) stubbornness regarding the Maximus RUSE caused immediately thereafter, I do remember that we agreed on a proposed “down-tiering” of the Hostile and the Aggressor.

I trimmed down the Tiers section as much as I could - how’s it look now?

Oh, and before I forget - which power armor were you considering for the original (current, more accurately) Tier 5 “category”?
 
The Tier list is better. I'll miss the obvious references to shuttles - and how I wanted to encourage vocabulary for T7 "Shuttlepods", T8 "Shuttlecraft" and T9 "Shuttle", and ships lose obvious nomenclature like T10 "Frigates", T11 "Destroyers", T12 "Light Cruisers", T13 "Heavy Cruisers" and T14 "Battleships" - but I think the roomier formatting is worth it and it's not like the examples don't convey the picture anyways.

For Tier 1, I'm not sure what good the NSP (Stun) does it there. I mean, the stun setting doesn't really kill... and stun actually still works just as well on most humanoid protective gear.

FrostJaeger said:
Oh, and before I forget - which power armor were you considering for the original (current, more accurately) Tier 5 “category”?
Click to expand...
Eh, it's the Kishi... and using an unapproved power armor as an argument is pretty much a non-argument, so it's not really worth getting into. If it does reach submission stage, it'll still be Medium, so... really not worth getting up in arms over it. In hindsight... aside from my mental picture, I'm not really hurt by this. Your solution gives the medium category more use, and you seem on the same wavelength as I am in judging their size being on how well they'd maneuver indoors - so I shouldn't be complaining.
 
@Fred - I’ve replaced the Type 33 Nekovalkyrja Service Pistol’s heavy stun mode with the Styrling Silver Special in the Tier 1 “block,” as although it’s not a Yamataian weapon - unlike, say, the Type 28 General Service Pistol - it is a weapon that currently sees a lot of usage by player characters, particularly those in Nepleslian plots.
 
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I do not like how the "Heavy Armor" niche is entirely filled with mecha over twice as tall as a person. Those are not power armor. This system expands the Mecha niche to take up four places in practice and cuts down the Power Armor niche into two in practice. While factions that favor mecha might like this, factions that are more Power Armor based will find themselves suddenly neutered. An example is the Kirie/Keiko's downgrade from Tier 6 to Tier 5 in this system, which halves its strength and its appeal over the other Power Armor available in certain roles.

My classifying the Kirie/Keiko as Tier 6/Heavy Armor way back when was a recognition that though it was a mecha, it was still person-sized in practice at 2.3m/7.5 feet. It was able to go through doorways (though it might need to squat down), board and navigate ships, and perform Power Armor tasks. It also better fit Yamataian design practices (what Wes said he wanted). As such, I was better able to justify its downgrade into a more suitable armor role in the upper limit of what a Power Armor could be. These 3.5 meter/13 foot mecha do not have such justifications and should not be used to justify intruding on the PA niche. They are 100% Mecha in size, design, and deployment practices. In fact, Tier 6, which is supposed to be assigned to Power Armor, is explicitly defined in this new role as "Bigger than human-sized; too large to fit in a standard doorframe.8) ". At that point, it is simply not a Power Armor and is just a Light-Light Mecha.

I assume this effort to expand the Mecha niche in literally everything but name, at the cost of the PA niche, is in part because Mecha and Fighers/Bombers are crammed into the same scale and are seeing wider scale use outside of Yamatai. While that may warrant discussion of its own, I do not see rewriting PA scale in this manner as a viable solution.
 
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I really don't think something twice as tall as a person is a mecha. That could easily still be considered a power armor. In addition most very large power armors, like the aggressor, are far too small to be a mecha, not even coming in at half of the recommended size for one or fitting the text description for it.

I also think that you're attributing to malice what can be attributed easily to the fact that it's a very very tough call to make when deciding where the aggressor or things like it fit. Why does this HAVE to be someone attempting to screw someone else over? Is it not too much to say that for example, Yamataian power armors generally are on the smaller end of their tier whereas nepleslian power armors are on the larger end?

This allows power armors to extend up to and include what could be considered small mecha otherwise. I think that your objection is, if I'm honest, slightly petty. Yes, you worked hard on the stuff you made, and it's all in a tier that's affected by this but I think it's a pretty big assumption and also slightly arrogant to assume that only one style of large ( or heavy ) power armor exists.

I by no means intend for this to be an insult to you @Toshiro, but I think this is bigger than Yamatai or nepleslia or an attempt by one person to screw others over and is actually an attempt to make the damage system better fit the setting in its entirety.
 
My statement wasn't accusing Nepleslia of trying to attack Yamatai, but a difference in OOC doctrine and priority translating into a problem. Nepleslia and USO like Mecha. Yamatai likes PA more. This plan seems crafted from the standpoint of the former and hurts the latter. I did not attribute malice or intentional motive to harm as the cause of this though, as I believe this is simply a matter of perspective. I even said that this issue may have had a justifiable cause which warranted discussion, just that I did not agree with the solution presented.

Please don't be so quick to jump to "this person wants to persecute me for my faction' just because I cite a difference between the factions' tech and tactics influencing policy simply due to their experiences. If I was unclear about this, however, I apologize. I did not say this from a 'faction-bashing' perspective.

Regarding the Aggressor and your examples, the aggressor's wiki page itself says that "A mere foot in height short of being twice as tall as the smaller NAM Terratech General Combat Armorsuit – “Hostile”, the Aggressor is essentially a light powered frame or mech. " The wiki itself defines the craft as a mecha.

Part of our issue may stem from what you and I consider a mecha to be. I think that anything that can navigate the interior of a building or ship effectively is a Power Armor in scale due to its similarity to human size and it's resultant ability to be fielded to seize enemy infrastructure from inside or in more conventional infantry roles. There is a clear delineation there in how such units are fielded which I feel is an appropriate place at which to draw the line.
 
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I'd kind of like to have @Legix handle this part because in the two different societies PA is different. This is based much more on IC things than OOC I think.

Edit: I think the issue here is that something as large as the Agressor had to go somewhere because it wasn't large enough to be considered a mecha. This means that OOC we are treating its durability as if it is a powered armor, and the IC explanation for this is that its armor isn't as effective as Yamatai's, meaning it needs more of it to be as durable.
 
While practical in theory, that ideology has led to the attempt to push down everything else at the top of the PA niche and even redefine it in an effort to vacate it for Mecha. That even includes the Yamataian armors you're trying to equate it to. I have to raise issue there, for reasons already stated. My definition of where the PA scale ends and the Mecha scale begins is specific out of necessity. It seems we have to come to an agreement of where that line is before proceeding, because this submission attempts to redefine it with something I feel is flawed.
 
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OK, but it's specified in DRv3. While I'll admit the tier 7 guide for size should be lower slightly, I don't think it should be quite as low as 3 or 4 meters. I'd say about 7 is right.

Also, one style of PA does not preclude the other. Downtiering one thing does not mean downtiering the stuff you're most likely worried about (Yamataian PA). In no way is a big PA like the agressor existing a threat to normal PA as they are now. It's just a big PA, larger than Yamatai's ones because its armor material is inferior.

Edit: By your definition of what PA is, both the medium and heavy PA categories wouldn't be PA because they are so large that a unit of that catagory "has to bend down to fit in an office's doorframe" or that it "barely fits in an office's corridor" respectively.

Of course, these are only suggested sizes, but do you see my point?
 
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The specifications in DRv3 were vague enough not to be as exclusive before. Now this submission is being made more specific to where it's causing an issue with the vagueness of the Mecha/PA line of deliniation. Also, it does downtier them. Existing units like the Hostile, Kirie, and Keiko, and probably the Ripper are being downtiered from Tier 6 to Tier 5 in this submission to vacate Tier 6 for the compact Mecha that you claim stand equal to them. That is explicitly happening and where my issue lies.

You should have the right to down-Tier your machines for such cases, like a small Mecha with worse armor. That and its size and use in the field were the justifications I used to stick the Kirie and Keiko in the PA niche in the first place before DRv3 was a thing. Labeling smaller mecha as PA just because their armor is weaker and knocking everything else in Tier 6 down a tier to force the issue just isn't the way to do it.

Also, I would not consider a machine that was 20 feet tall as a Power Armor on any day. 23 feet/7 meters should not the minimum threshold for Mecha/Tier 7. But again, that's where we disagree on there the line stops. No quality that I would attribute to a Power Armor (wearable, fieldable inside enemy infrastructure as infantry, etc) survives at a point well before reaching that limit.
 
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Well I didn't realize that. That's kind of dumb. I think that should be changed actually, because of the difference in armor materials and the fact that they're equivalent to in protection to where they were before. I'm sorry for getting on your case without doing proper research on the matter. Also, I think that the size categories should stay vague, so that they can be guidelines.
 
That's okay. We're passionate about our things and the line between mecha and PA is more than a bit blurry. That's why I looked for explicit barriers between them seven years ago when working on the Kirie and Keiko to find where to put them. When we push for specific constraints in something that is vague in interpretation for lots of us (PA vs. Mecha line), it forces us to try and find a hard line.

I guess my next question, though, is "Do Mecha/Fighters/Bombers need 4 tiers". The encroachment into the PA line indicates that they might, so maybe we could look at the smallest and biggest ones in practice? I'm not well-versed in the upper limits of the scale though, aside from what the DRv3 pages list.

Tier 6 could also be a 'transitional' Tier between heavy PA and ultra-light mecha, simply codifying what we've already been doing. I expect it to be a diverse dumping ground for the intermediate stuff, though.

Edit: Just saw an earlier edit of yours. Part of my definition is merely that the PA be able to enter and navigate. Ducking down in doorframes is acceptable. Fitting in a corridor but not a doorframe is...a very strange stipulation invented later that I have issues with, but haven't fought on. The idea that someone would even build something to such an inconvenient and narrow size window that can be measured in inches/centimeters makes little sense. Kirie and Keiko are like rather tall people/ID-SOLs, meant to be the top-practically sized PA when they were created when considering ship boarding and infiltration ops, and are hyper flexible.

I think incremental DR edits and adjustments over the years may have complicated things, along with a possible shift in perception of just what a Power Armor is.
 
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I think to be honest, we need to keep the description of what size PA is the same as it was in the previous revision. We don't need numbers for size in anything below tier 7. I also think that the Kirie can be the absolute lower limit of what heavy PA can be, whereas the Aggressor can be the absolute upper limit of what heavy PA can be.

In addition to this, I'd like to take this opportunity to address a long standing with mecha sizing in DRv3.

They're too big. The size requirements cuts out a lot of origin mecha and the size requirements double with every tier, ending up with you needing a 40m tall mecha if you want tier 9, and 20m if you want tier 8.

I'd say make mecha start with light mecha go from 5 meters to 10 meters, heavy mecha from 10 meters to 17 metres and heavy mecha from 17 meters up to the point where they reach starship sizes.

Alternatively we could do 5-15 meters for light, 11-21 meters for medium and 21- and up for heavy if we want more overlap.@FrostJaeger @Toshiro what do you guys think of these ideas, including my suggestion for how to handle PA.
 
I've always thought it was ridiculous that the Hostile, which is armor that's basically only slightly bigger than a Mindy, was 2 tiers above the Mindy 4 for no explicable reason. This adjusted chart "fixes" that.

There is definitely some blurring of the line between mecha and power armor. The Kirie, which is an actual (small) mecha (it's got a pilot pod, and isn't worn like armor is worn) is lower on the scale than the Aggressor power armor (the aggressor is significantly larger than the Kirie).
 
As far as the mecha goes, i like the overlapping scale since heavy armor is a thing, though it maybe needs to go a bit smaller even as 5-15 meters is a huge range and something 5m tall is unlikely to be similar in toughness to something 15m tall, and starting at 11m for medium is probably still too tall.
 
Well, the Aggressor is 13 feet / 3.96 meters. If that's the upper limit of Tier 6, which I suppose I could agree with should it be a transitional space as stated, then the lower limit of Tier 7 would have to be about the same at 4 meters. I agree that the mecha scale should easily contain 5 meters on up. We need to reconcile that properly with Starfighters and Bombers, but I think that is possible.

For reference, the Hostile is 7 feet, and the Kirie/Keiko/Ripper are all 2.3m /7' 6". If all sides want the Hostile to be Tier 5, then 7' 6"/2.3m can be the minimum for Tier 6.
 
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