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Mini-Meta Plot and Events

CadetNewb

CadetNewb

Well-Known Member
Unless I'm mistaken, there's nothing going on in the meta-plot right now. Because of that, I ended up coming up with some concepts or ideas that I believe would benefit us. In the past, the Meta-Plot was fairly all-consuming, and usually dragged or influenced even the plots and players that simply weren't interested in it at all. Because of this, the concepts here have that in mind, and should have little or no impact on plots that simply aren't interested. However, even if a plot doesn't participate, these Mini-Meta Plot ideas would basically add more depth to the background environment and act as background itself as well.

I'm thinking that with the major wars over, the nations are now focused on domestic and foreign issues that could give rise to very small, 'low intensity conflicts' for an example. More importantly, these problems would also have the nations themselves interact with one another more in the background, which if desired by the GM of a plot, could translate to impact on their plot and serve as another tool for use in telling a story.

Let me give a few examples.

With Nepleslia, I imagine that with the war over, the criminal elements that had gone unchecked and despite having even pitched into the war effort in some cases, are stronger and going back to doing what they do. So because of that, organized crime is on the rise again; illegal drugs are being trafficked, slavers are finding customers again, etc. On top of that, thanks to the senate being wiped out, the power gap let all sorts of corruption sweep in unnoticed during the war. This could lead to growing levels of dissatisfaction in the population and give rise to various groups, perhaps even being the stimulus the Reds needed to get on their feet again and become active.

Yamatai, meanwhile, would find itself dealing with growing levels of decadence not only in the populace itself, but also its government and military. People do the bare minimum necessary at their work, play around while on duty or in-office, and it slowly becomes more and more unacceptable, affecting the nation as a whole. Not only that, I imagine there would be terrorist attacks from various groups that have a beef with it, and are becoming active now that the Mishhu threat has left. To make matters worse, it can't properly fight them not only due to the inherent nature of terrorism, but because such groups are often basing themselves in other nations. On top of that, Yamatai would have to deal with an increasingly unhappy Jiyuuian population that wants to break away again.

In the above examples, there's both domestic and foreign issues that negatively affect the nations, but ultimately don't do any real harm to them. Yet, at the same time, these also flesh out the site's background, and provide a more concrete set of tools for GMs to use if they want to. Plus, these Meta-Plot ideas don't force themselves on plots either.

More importantly, and as something I have not addressed yet however, is that these events serve as grounds for nations, and their characters, to interact with each other. Right now, in most cases, each nation/faction is in its own bubble, making the site look like a playground with several separate sandboxes rather than a playground proper. With this, the interactions could be something as simple as just something in the background with the nations, or could be GMs using NPCs of other factions to RP with the players. In the most extreme, perhaps even mixed-faction plots.

I would like to discuss getting something going here on the site's background, because right now, it all seems too quiet.
 
I don't think most of what you mentioned with Yamatai will realistically fly. Not to mention I've seen plenty of seeds that could lead in interesting directions, if they're given the time they need to gestate.

As for things being quiet, I see plenty of initiatives being taken. I'm, regarding my own projects, also super-busy... and on top of that, I've an Umbral rampaging across the top floor of a skyscraper. It's hardly quiet. x_x
 
In the Eucharis plot, we're developing the story that Yamatai is currently being probed by a Yamatai-like Empire called the Interstellar Kingdom of Kuvexia, which is part of a "Xeno-alliance" of diverse alien races from beyond known space. The Kuvexians are starting to bother Yamatai by shipping loads of the annoying race of fast-reproducing bug-men known as the Rixxikor into the YSE's border areas.
 
@Fred - they're concepts for a reason.

We don't have to go with them, but the ones I've given are basically a starting point for coming up with something that'd be agreeable. We're looking for a source of conflict for the nations that's small and manageable enough that they won't bother a plot/GM that's uninterested, while also adding more depth and enrich the setting overall. Being the catalyst for fostering more interaction - good or bad - between nations would be one such intended effect for an example. If it's not the ones I suggested though, others that have the same effect would do just fine. Going with your Seed analogy, they're basically a wider selection, with emphasis on the word Selection. The reason why we'd want a wider selection of things to choose from is that not all the Seeds that are on hand are what GMs or potential GMs would pick to use.

There's always going to be something going on in a plot, but the broad stage is silent. The nations themselves aren't really doing anything or have something to contend with. Meanwhile, our plots are always going to have action because we do our best to come up with something after all; this concept is just supposed to make it easier to come up with something for our plots and give more options to pick from.

If you don't like the concepts I came up with, do you have any to suggest? Or, if you're against the idea of giving more turmoil to the factions as a whole, why?

@Wes - IIRC, we talked about this before on the IRC.

I recalled the point being brought up that there was nothing for Yamatai to do, with one of the main issues being that none of the other nations even wanted to interact with Yamatai. That each of our factions were basically in their own sandbox, doing their own thing instead of playing together, which was stagnant and boring. Though I agreed on that, I didn't agree on the solutions suggested.

In-Character, none of the other factions want to interact with Yamatai because it's far more powerful than them, and we also feel the same way Out-of-Character as well. There'd be no point. It's one of the main driving forces behind why we made DATASS - so we'd be sure we would never fight Yamatai. We were suggested to make our factions more powerful to better match Yamatai, but that is not an option for us since it'd be both power-creep, and another arms race. The suggestion to bring in a new enemy that was on-par with Yamatai - as you've done here - was also considered off the table as well. For all intents and purposes, it'd be the same as the Mishhuvurthyar War but in a different set of clothing, and we don't want that for various reasons.

With the Mishhuvurthyar War, I believe we were primarily unhappy with the fact that it forced us into the conflict regardless of what we wanted. Some people had their own plans for their plots and players, and it was all derailed because that Meta-Plot was all-encompassing. With this "Interstellar Kingdom of Kuvexia", it'd be more of the same in that we'd be forced to participate if Yamatai got in a war with them due to DATASS, and like with the Mishhu War, we'd be unhappy through the whole ordeal. Even with something like another Mishhuvurthyar War, the other factions would be off to the sidelines and basically be unimportant; that's something players don't like. Finally, even when such a conflict ends, we'd all be back to where we started; nobody wanting their faction to interact with Yamatai.

That was why we suggested making Yamatai weaker; so that interaction between factions would be desirable. With this, it would look like the outcome of any potential strife could go either way, with a single grain of rice or bullet potentially tipping the scales from an In-Character standpoint. Out-of-Character, GMs and FMs would already know how it'd turn out, since it'd all be agreed on before hand, but the key would be that the players would receive something a lot better. Out of all the options, it seemed the most logical one to take, since it benefited all factions by a large margin.

That's why I got to ask; why you don't want to take this option?
 
The idea we agreed on was an alliance of enemies where each participating GM could come up with his own enemy to use instead of everyone being forced to use the same enemy. The Rixxikor and the Kuvexians are the ones for my plot. Nobody else has to use them.

Weakening Yamatai just puts us in a bad position where existential risks outweigh the nebulous benefits.
 
CadetNewb said:
If you don't like the concepts I came up with, do you have any to suggest? Or, if you're against the idea of giving more turmoil to the factions as a whole, why?
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What Wes said.

The factions as a whole don't matter so much as the players... and the universe there is interesting enough so that I'm content to see changes in the setting happening around events GMs precipitate. I'm thinking that if you want to stir things, you should do it in the wake of what you're responsible for as GM rather than think more broadly. That's the admin's job, as far as I'm concerned. Besides, I've been there, done that as Wes' co-admin before... and all it's ever done for me is bite me in the butt. I don't feel compelled to repeat the experience, particularily considering how most of the time, people don't welcome such concerns anyways.

I've Black Spiral, Kikyo's rebels, the Shadow Viper-sect of renegade Ketsurui Samurai, elements of the True Nekovalkyrja Empire, the Umbral species, along with the Xudathi and Varin races on my plate right now. I'm pretty sure I'm involved in plenty enough stuff to benefit the memberbase already.

Furthermore, there's the shadow of Uesu's exodus fleet possibly threatening to create a rift between the imperial system Uesu shouldered in the past versus the new consitution... which has the OoC-talked about potential of provocking a civil war. Yamatai has always had the best elements - for me - to use as antagonists... so just the possibility of that feels fantastic to me. A split between current yamatai and what made Yamatai a good antagonistic force to other parties - with the actual benefit of being able to fight themm, get away with it, and still maintain the integrity and strength of Wes' faction has a lot of potential to me.

I'm just unsure that Wes will truly warm up to that idea; the last time the prospect of 'civil war' came up was during the Sakura plot, and he gave up on it for the complications it involved. That's part of what I picked up and pursued in the Miharu plot.
 
The civil war concept isn't dead, just so everyone knows, it's just not really ready yet. Also remember there's a Yamataian plot right now that's actively on Uesu's trail.

Edit: Uh, shouldn't this thread be in the GM forum? Anyone mind if I move it?
 
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@Wes - I put this thread in the general setting discussion since I wanted it to be open to all players, not just 'bigwigs' like Faction Managers and Game Masters like myself and Fred. That way, they could - if they wanted - give feedback rather than having no say in the matter.

Moving back to the topic itself though, one issue I have with the "Xeno-Alliance" is not that we get to choose whatever we want to fight, but if we can simply choose not to get involved at all. To be very clear, I don't want Nepleslia - and my own plot specifically - to be dragged into another war. Especially through usage of the treaty our nations have. Even if I get to choose what enemy I and my players fight in that war, it's not much of one at all if I can't even opt out of that fight period. I would not have any fun, and frankly, I'm only able to GM so long as I enjoy it. Because my interests are primarily inwards, with our own factions and their complex relationships with one another, being forced into that conflict would be the best way to potentially kill my plot.

Because of that, I'd like some more clarity; specifically on whether or not there are plans to bring the other factions into that war.

Regarding a weakening of Yamatai, I'm actually shocked that "Existential Risks" are the reason for not allowing or doing such. Yamatai, as well as all other player factions, are completely and utterly immune to destruction so long as there is an FM and players. A faction can not, and should not, be able to lose a single planet unless the Faction Manager has the loss proposed to them beforehand and consents. Out of Character, there are no risks whatsoever to Yamatai, even if In-Character, it is very literally under attack by ever single other faction like the Imperium of Man. The reason for that would be that an event such as that and its details would be talked about and agreed upon beforehand with all parties already knowing exactly what the outcome would be.

Only the players won't know what will happen next, or how it will end. Faction and Game Masters however, would.

As for the benefits, they're in no way whatsoever "nebulous". Currently, there are many things we cannot do because of Yamatai's overly-powerful status. Our factions cannot have small disputes and skirmishes along the border for an example, because if Yamatai is involved, nobody else wants to be. Can a GM have their Mindies or Daisies fight Hostiles? Or their Hostiles fight Mindies and Daisies? Even if they're NPCs? It's incredibly difficult. A city can't be raided by attackers, whether they are Mishhu or Freespacer Terrorists so that players can come in and save the day. There can't even be Crime-noir, and anything involving Yakuza is also impossible in Yamatai due to how flawless the law enforcement is. And if a GM decides to have it anyways, they'll say that the cops were either incompetent or corrupt, which makes them look bad. The same goes for SAINT, and Yamatai being too strong is the precise, exact reason why everyone jokes that it's full of moles even though it is not. A GM of Yamatai that wants to have internal intrigue, espionage and spies is forced to say that the events of the plot were only possible because SAINT was full of enemy spies and so forth.

Game Masters need weaknesses to be present so that they can start various troubles and conflicts for their plots to go out and solve, and if a nation's armor is flawless, then they'll have the nation wearing it be crummy. By making Yamatai's military and intelligence coverage highly skilled, competent and powerful but not all-seeing or all-protecting, GMs can exploit more conventional gaps such as insufficient patrols and inadequate forces, rather than having to directly assault the integrity of the nation and that of characters themselves like SAINT has been victim to. Because even with these "Purges" to SAINT, a GM will make a mole again anyways if they feel that they need to for an example, simply because that's what plot requires due to the fact there are no other options.

This is all about making those other options available, and their benefits are tremendous.

@Fred - I'm glad you're doing fine in your plot, but take into consideration how it is for other game masters, current or potential. The tools at hand are perfectly suited for your needs, but for other stories, ones that another may pursue, the options they have may be completely inadequate. That would mean that they would not be able to do the plot they want, and would most likely not even bother become a GM. That's why I believe this is so important. In no way should this affect your plot, but instead, allow others to come into being.
 
I usually think it's bad form to quote something when my post is right after the other person's post, but...

CadetNewb said:
As for the benefits, they're in no way whatsoever "nebulous". Currently, there are many things we cannot do because of Yamatai's overly-powerful status. Our factions cannot have small disputes and skirmishes along the border for an example, because if Yamatai is involved, nobody else wants to be. Can a GM have their Mindies or Daisies fight Hostiles? Or their Hostiles fight Mindies and Daisies? Even if they're NPCs? It's incredibly difficult. A city can't be raided by attackers, whether they are Mishhu or Freespacer Terrorists so that players can come in and save the day. There can't even be Crime-noir, and anything involving Yakuza is also impossible in Yamatai due to how flawless the law enforcement is. And if a GM decides to have it anyways, they'll say that the cops were either incompetent or corrupt, which makes them look bad. The same goes for SAINT, and Yamatai being too strong is the precise, exact reason why everyone jokes that it's full of moles even though it is not. A GM of Yamatai that wants to have internal intrigue, espionage and spies is forced to say that the events of the plot were only possible because SAINT was full of enemy spies and so forth.

Game Masters need weaknesses to be present so that they can start various troubles and conflicts for their plots to go out and solve, and if a nation's armor is flawless, then they'll have the nation wearing it be crummy. By making Yamatai's military and intelligence coverage highly skilled, competent and powerful but not all-seeing or all-protecting, GMs can exploit more conventional gaps such as insufficient patrols and inadequate forces, rather than having to directly assault the integrity of the nation and that of characters themselves like SAINT has been victim to. Because even with these "Purges" to SAINT, a GM will make a mole again anyways if they feel that they need to for an example, simply because that's what plot requires due to the fact there are no other options.
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Quoted for truth.

I strive on internal threats. I will create trouble so that my players can solve it. Because it makes Yamatai more interesting for me. Because it allows my players to maintain Yamatai's lofty status through deed rather than a simple arbitrary declaration. Because I want Yamatai's players to be the major factor making it great, rather than only one person's say-so.

Everything Cadetnewb mentions, I did it before, or I am doing it now. I am guilty. Guilty of trying to find ways to entertain my playerbase. Usually, I aim for that by also including ambivalence and hard choices. The varying motivations affecting the Yamataian people, what makes them noble and not, what makes them good and not... and the dilemmas that lead to one or the other - that is what interests me in GMing for it.

I also see precedent which makes me know that Wes is not insensate to such a point of view. Back when I was designing Miharu, I was making the ship much tougher than it turned out being. For one, I was trying to have shuttlecraft and escape pods double as additional power sources when they were on the ship and not in use. Wes kindly adviced me that if I didn't make my ship more faillible that it would be harder to spring problems for my playerbase to deal with.
 
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<Lam> This is kind of cool, but what about delivery methods? The meta game doesn't really lend itself well to RP when you're developing something that takes place on multiple systems at once. Are you suggesting we write 'current events' pieces as news stories to explain how sweeping changes are occurring to these factions?
<CadetNewb> Bingo. That way, they're background events that a plot can opt into or out of as they please.
<Lam> Okay.
<Lam> I'm on board with this. I don't see how it could harm anything. Perhaps GMs and FMs should approve these developments to keep things out like "a sudden rise in Nepleslia's before now unheard of vampire population"
<CadetNewb> Probably.
 
@Fred - it is precisely because you're one of the best GMs here that I knew from the start that you're guilty of breaking the sometimes spoken, sometimes unspoken rules regarding Yamatai.

SAINT isn't supposed to have moles, Yamatai is not supposed to have traitors or enemy sympathizers in its midst, and it certainly can't have what's basically an Uber-Mishhu Progenitor/Mother of Monsters rampaging on top of one of it's skyscrapers. I wouldn't be surprised that's one reason why you're having that happen on Fortuna in Nepleslia instead. It'd just be too contrary to Yamatai's official safety/be far too rule-breaking to slip under the radar. The very fact that good GMs have to sneak the good stuff by for their players like alcohol during Prohibition feels just plain wrong to me. Hell, I think it's flat out wrong. That's why I'm suggesting that such events, terrifying on the small scale but just a blip on the national/factional level, should be allowed if not outright be explicitly stated as occurring, as in my conversation with Lam.

Where Wes once told you that it was a bad idea to have the protagonists be too powerful, I hope he takes the same advice he once gave to you.

Also, Kampfer says that so long as you and Kotori clean up after yourselves, it's all good.

EDIT: She'll probably make wearing a hazmat suit look cute.
 
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Personally, I agree with our friend cadet here, Everyfaction should have its... 'issues'. Particularly Yamatai, as outwardly perfect as it looks, it REALLY should have internal corruption, sympathizers, and freespacer terrorist attacks coming in quite regularly.

I mean, in any system there is a weakness. No security measures can be perfect, no force is so tightly woven that its entirely uncorruptible unless you are using some sort of mind control and/or brainwashing, and if you WERE using something like that, somone who figured it out and managed to resist it somehow would be a great plot.

As for terrorist attacks being forbidden basically... why? Somone, somewhere, would find a way, from the basics like a nuclear bomb strapped to your chest, to somethin insane from the warhammer40k universe like strapping thrusters and a FTL travel device to an astroid, making it nice and airtight, or not since you would probably be sending it in unmanned, maybe even put some nukes in it, have an AI control it, and change corse at the last moments to slam the thing onto the surface, or even detonate nukes mid air/in atmosphere, likely killing millions of people with the EMP due to air travel, satalites, and many more with the radiation.

That was just an example any ways, but i could probably find reasons why they could do it, I mean astroids go undetected all the time until they are spotted with some good ol sunlight and a telescope.

... I'll stop now, but my final 'point' is basically I'd like to make a neko solider 'defect' or something like that in the far future once I get settled into how things work around here, from the way you are all describing this, not only is it impossible to fool Yamataian authorities, no one would ever do this in the first place despite the horrible things that they have done! Yamatai is basically what amounts to a fruit tree with amazing fruit and flowers. encased in a block of zesuaium. We all to see the tree and maybe take a fruit, to do so would require putting holes in its armor. It needs holes in its armor.

That was probably a dumb analogy.
 
I've been debating writing anything in this thread since it was first posted and for a while everything that I had considered saying was covered by either Cadet or Fred. Now however I think I have a point that might be worth mentioning.

In my opinion the biggest benefit these proposed Mini-Meta Plots could offer to Players and GMs is the opportunity to have current events to be discussed in character. If implemented in the right way it would allow characters in different plots to hear about and discuss events taking place elsewhere in the setting either during an even or afterwards. This would ideally provide additional depth to the setting, and increase the illusion of a living universe for everyone. A possible example of this would be player characters overhearing a pair of guards or other NPCs discussing a recent bombing somewhere within Nepleslian space, or perhaps dissent among the former UOC colonies, or any number of other events depending on what has happened recently.

Moving on I would like to touch on the point Cadet made about the factions having vulnerabilities. I personally think it would be interesting to read about how (in YSE space for example) the SAoY or more mundane security services handle a breach in security, and then observe how it gets reported, whether the incident is covered up, modified, or reported plainly to the populace. I would appreciate the opportunity to be able to see how security is preserved, and how things are fixed when they go wrong rather than merely having the assumption that things never go wrong.

Another possible option that could be provided would be having a plotship's crew react and interact with an event while on shore leave. This would present a situation showing both the players and the characters that while they are out exploring the stars or diffusing situations away from home, that there are many who work every day to make sure that there is a safe haven to come back to. It could provide a group interesting insight into the depth and complexity of the setting beyond what they encounter day to day in their main plot.

To reinforce what has been said before, the best way to handle any event that might damage any assets belonging to a faction would be with clear, open communication between GMs and FMs. Hopefully this would be done in a manner that ensures that all parties that need to know what is going on do, and that any points cause worry can be elaborated upon and clarified. I would hope that this would be done so as to avoid any unpleasant surprises that could cause issues OOC. After all this is supposed to be a community dedicated to the enjoyment of collaborative storytelling and one should not have to fear someone going behind their back and attempting to destroy their hard work.
 
I just thought I'd weigh in that, as a person involved in both the Heartbreaker plotline chasing Uesu (and, wholly behind the idea of sparking a civil war down the line via my XO's actions), as well as actively cultivating resurgent Jiyuuian aspirations on a few levels in the background, and even pushing for Elysian self-sufficiency... I am obviously all about trying to take the whole box Yamatai finds itself in and make it a heckuva lot more interesting and disrupted first, before having to add in new external threats. I find the playerbase seems to be responding very well to the insurgent/terrorist type of enemy within rather than something large scale like the Mishhu for the reasons you stated.
 
@Wes - whether or not you agree with allowing more detail to the setting like I suggested, the other topic I raised is still left unanswered. Though you've come to agreement with the other FMs that the new threat will be a "select anything you'd like" type, will the nations be able to completely opt out of the conflict as a whole if the playerbase is not interested, or will Yamatai use DATASS to drag all nations into the war regardless?
 
Yeah, the idea is to basically have the war take place primarily in some far-off sector that doesn't bother the people who don't want to be involved, and also to harness the idea of reinforcements not showing up instantly like they do in the core sectors.
 
Hearing that is some weight off my chest then Wes.

Moving on to the other matter though, I've made some points as to why there aren't any existential risks, and why the benefits are substantial rather than nebulous. However, if you still disagree and don't want these sorts of small-scale meta events going on, I'd really like to know why.
 
There's nothing stopping one GM contacting the other GM's and seeing if they can put something together that crosses all their plots, is there?

At the very least you could work together to hammer out a proposal the majority agree on and then send it to Admin for approval... right?
 
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