NAM Heavy Penetrating Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

[MoonMan]

We've been needing a STANDARD weapon for Nepleslian armors for a while. This is my attempt to help that along.

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=nepleslia:hpar

 

[Doshii Jun]

Re: NAM Heavy Penetrationg Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

Has the metalloid been approved?

I'm not very familiar with the concept, admittedly ... but you've got the muzzle velocity and the range ...

So, er, just so I understand, when the coin is pushed against by this gas, it forms a big spike? That's a full 30 mm across?

 

[Wes]

Re: NAM Heavy Penetrationg Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

Please move this to the Nepleslia directory.

 

[SUBLIMEinal]

Re: NAM Heavy Penetrationg Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

Done.

 

[MoonMan]

Re: NAM Heavy Penetrationg Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

Has the metalloid been approved?

I'm not very familiar with the concept, admittedly ... but you've got the muzzle velocity and the range ...

No, it hasn't. That's kind of the purpose here since, admittedly, I sincerely doubt the metalloid would be used (or even useful) anywhere else. If the metalloid truly does need to be approved prior to this, I could do that, but that's the reason I didn't do it in the first place.

So, er, just so I understand, when the coin is pushed against by this gas, it forms a big spike? That's a full 30 mm across?

Ah, no. The coin starts out with a 30 mm diameter. When it gets heated and pushed, the 'spike' it forms isn't so much a spike, but a thin stream of semisolid metal, maybe around the thickness of a pencil.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=8sO50K78NWU&feature=related

The Krakatoa, depicted in the first part of this youtube, is sort of the inspiration for this design. The method of firing is different, but the projectiles behavior is similar. At about 1:40 is a visual presentation of the effect, while later on in the clip shows the effect it has on an inch of steel plating. Hopefully that'll clear that up for ya, Doshii.

 

[Strangelove]

Re: NAM Heavy Penetrationg Assault Rifle "The Money Shot"

Doshii: It's a basic HEAT charge, which is a veeeery old technology. These have been used in virtually all handheld anti-tank weapons since WW1 (recoilless rifles, bazookas, panzerfausts, RPG-7s, etc). Basically you have a copper plate with explosive behind it. When the warhead goes off the copper is superheated and squeezed through a nozzle by the explosive, and the warhead shoots a supersonic jet of molten metal into the target.

There's one problem with the weapon though: The jet has no coherence; the stream falls apart very quickly in open air. Tanks carried spaced armor since even the extra few inches of space made shaped charges that much less powerful. HEAT weapons are primarily used only in handheld weapons because kinetic penetrator weapons (which perform better versus armor) are far too heavy for infantry to haul about.

****

• This weapon works at a lower temperature than plasma yet seems to do equivalent/more damage, which is a bit confusing. Due to the very small size of the shots I would imagine that they will do very little damage; Remember one doesn't defeat tanks simply by shooting lots of pistol bullets at it, but rather a single massive heavy rocket or tank kinetic penetrator round; Size IS effectively damage in terms of armor penetration, and firing lots of little rounds against a big target won't do much more than scratch it. The only way these weapons can compensate and reach that damage output is by having ammo much heavier than plasma, or by burning even more brightly than plasma...unless I've missed something in the writeup (I've just skimmed it quick; will read in detail later).
• There is also the issue with molten metal coherence as mentioned in my note to Doshii. What makes it stick together instead of falling apart?
• Is there any particular reason the gun needs to be so complex as to build it's ammunition on-site, so to speak?
  • And if it's manufacturing its own ammunition upon firing shouldn't there realistically be a much lower rate-of-fire?
• The caking function seems redundant. If the metal cools rapidly it would have cooled en route to the enemy, thus reducing its damage. If not, then by "caking" enemy armor all you do is help fill in any holes you may have burned; adding more layers of material for the next round to burn through. It's no more effective at incapacitating than bullets are at incapacitating people via bruising. Typically if a bullet is in a position to bruise someone the target is probably already dead/dying anyways.

In short: You're attempting to use outdated technology to create a super handheld tank-eating machine gun. This may be plausable with more advanced tech like plasma weapons or if the weapon had a significantly higher caliber (like a vehicle-based weapons system), but otherwise I just don't think it will fly as being powerful as to destroy military-grade Durandium in half a second...

Initial tests of the weapon have completely vaporized themselves through thick sheets of tungsten and most common heat-resistant meshes in a single shot, and with two or three consecutive hits in the same general area, quickly melt its way through military-grade Durandium

Rate of Fire: 7 rounds per second, 3 round-burst or fully automatic

 

[MoonMan]

Edit: GAH! You're editing! ~_~

This weapon works at a lower temperature than plasma yet seems to do equivalent/more damage, which is a bit confusing. Due to the very small size of the shots I would imagine that they will do very little damage; Remember one doesn't defeat tanks simply by shooting lots of pistol bullets at it, but rather a single massive heavy rocket or tank kinetic penetrator round; Size IS effectively damage in terms of armor penetration, and firing lots of little rounds against a big target won't do much more than scratch it.

Which is why, I suppose, this isn't an anti-tank weapon: it's meant to penetrate infantry armor. Since being in armor leaves little room for the wearer to move around, it's about as effective is any regular round would be from any armor-piercing weapon already in Star Army.

The only way these weapons can compensate and reach that damage output is by either being much heavier, or by burning even more brightly than plasma...unless I've missed something in the writeup (I've just skimmed it quick; will read in detail later).

Unless I'm mistaken, plasma is used to propel this, I just never actually stated it's plasma. However, I've heard different things from different people on whether or not the propulsion method is indeed a form of plasma, so I'm left skeptical. Although it's never stated, I did intend for the metalloid to reach very high levels of heat. If you want to compare that heat to the same levels as plasma, by all means.

There is also the issue with molten metal coherence as mentioned in my note to Doshii. What makes it stick together instead of falling apart?

I figured that fact that it's not in a complete liquid state might make it's coherency more...coherent. The metalloid has a magnetic attribute, which is utilized in the barrel of the weapon through magnetic rifling; kind of like strips of metal, in the opposite charge, spiraling down the barrel and guiding the shot. If I didn't have that, some of the metalloid might stick to the inside of the gun. That would be bad.

Is there any particular reason the gun needs to be so complex as to build it's ammunition on-site, so to speak?

* And if it's manufacturing its own ammunition upon firing shouldn't there realistically be a much lower rate-of-fire?

Whoa whoa, this gun isn't doesn't manufacture its own rounds. Rounds come are made in a factory somewhere, put in a drum magazine, and given to the soldier...no on-board manufacturing plants on this baby.

Or, if you mean changing the coin to a steam of semisolid metal: the metalloid would be very hard to handle if it was already in semisolid form, not to mention dangerous since in semisolid form, any smidge of external heat would ignite the whole load. Being a solid, metal coin makes it easier to package and handle, since it's in semisolid that the metalloid is vulnerable to the heating mechanism.

The caking function seems redundant, too. If the metal cools rapidly it would have cooled en route to the enemy, thus reducing its damage. If not, then by "caking" enemy armor all you do is help fill in any holes you may have burned; adding more layers of material for the next round to burn through. It's no more effective at incapacitating than bullets would be to people by simply bruising them. Typically if a bullet is in a position to bruise someone the target is probably already dead/dying anyways.

The caking function is redundant because it's not intended. It's not the focus of the weapon, just a side effect.

The metal would not cool rapidly because, unless it has something solid to transfer heat to, it stays in a rapid cycle of self-heating (as I tried to explain through the submission, one of the things you probably skimmed). And as I picture it, the caking effect does what it says it does: if it hasn't slide off or or been broken off by the victim, it will stay there until another round of the HPAR strikes it; this starts the self-heating cycle again, which transfers heat into the impact area again until it melts through. Of course, if the HPAR isn't hitting them again in the first place, then the point is moot, but the intent of the rapid-fire nature is there attempt to solve that. The metalloid adds very, very little in the ways of extra armor, as well, since it's not near as dense or heat-resistant than other established alloys.

This weapon is about as effective than your standard armor-piercing round, really, but instead works around heat energy, instead of kinetic penetration. While a bullet, not able to penetrate a surface, will bound off, break, whatever, a round from the HPAR will not penetrate either, but attempt to soften the surface area through heat measures.

In short: You're attempting to use outdated technology to create a super handheld tank-eating machine gun. This may be plausable with more advanced tech like plasma weapons or if the weapon had a significantly higher caliber (like a vehicle-based weapons system), but otherwise I just don't think it will fly as being powerful as to destroy military-grade Durandium in half a second...

Yes, I'm using outdated technology to create a handheld anti-powered armor machine gun. If I wanted to blow up tanks, I'd use antimatter, since it's proven, and it's available, and nobody can say I can't.

Nepleslia's description used to be along the lines of "using old, proven technology to greater effect". This is what I am aiming for; something that uses old technology in an effective form for this settings combat. If this is too much to ask, I could always just make the newest Long Beam Rifle positron weapon, which I was going to do in the first place...but honestly, I don't want to use antimatter in infantry form anymore if I can give our armors something less-impossible, while still remaining strong enough to justify Nepleslia's place in the setting.

...and I did mean to change that particular part about vaporizing through durandium in one shot. I'll have a look at that, thanks for catching it. It should take a couple more to keep on par with other solid weapons.

 

[OsakanOne]

The article has been moved to the corrisponding namespace:
https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=nepleslia:hpar

We apologize for the inconvenience.

 

[Doshii Jun]

*nods* Thank you both for describing and linking to the appropriate descriptions. Very helpful.

The first thing that makes me wonder about this weapon is the rather large explosive needed to make the round go. How did you compact that into the gun? You say you superheat the copper up via electrode ... but they had to blow the motherfucking thing up to get it to go, and its accuracy was questionable because it had no barrel.

The heat from the copper wire-turned-gas ... it seems like you'd wear out your coils/rails really fast when you have that stuff going up the barrel, even with the cooling canisters. I'm not sure, of course; it just seems that way to me.

There are some basics about this thing, however, that make me wonder -- weight, length, ergonomics, etc. Right now Yamatai's LASR is probably not a match for the HPAR in theory (DR 4 and change vs. DR 5 confirmed) -- that's no problem. But I wonder why Nepleslia wouldn't, well, steal concepts from the LASR, as it's lighter and of a more manageable size. Admittedly it lacks the awesome capacity ... but the magazines are also a lot smaller and lighter.

I know the OOC reasons why NAM wouldn't just jack it; you guys are being original here. I'm just curious as to whether they'd try and steal it anyway.

Yamatai is trying to do this with its own plasma weaponry, too -- give soldiers a basic, reliable rifle that will give the good damage without costing obscene amounts of resources (whatever they might be). Overall, I think the concept is really cool.

 

[Zack]

Ok, if we are talking about a weapon that uses what is esentally a shaped charge using electricity wouldn't the range be limited to about 7 feet-ish in an atmosphere for the same reasons that a shaped charge has a very small effective range?

I also don't see why NAM would need to take concepts from the LASR. Nepleslians tend to use power armors more like the NDI do instead of how Yamatai uses them so their weapon needs are in different areas. Rather, the LASR wouldn't be of much use to a Nepleslian Soldier.

(EDIT: Ok, the video shows 25 yards away. But I'd still expect the range to be fairly low for the same reasons even with modern tech. A jet of material would end up loosing coherency in an atmosphere very quickly.)

 

[MoonMan]

The first thing that makes me wonder about this weapon is the rather large explosive needed to make the round go. How did you compact that into the gun? You say you superheat the copper up via electrode ... but they had to blow the motherfucking thing up to get it to go, and its accuracy was questionable because it had no barrel.

The heat from the copper wire-turned-gas ... it seems like you'd wear out your coils/rails really fast when you have that stuff going up the barrel, even with the cooling canisters. I'm not sure, of course; it just seems that way to me.

That's kind of why the cooling systems are there. Although I didn't state it, I kind of thought that the heat-cycle process takes a second or two to really reach it's maximum; which gives it ample time to leave the weapon. Honestly though, I can't turn up kelvin numbers, metalloid heat absorbency or gun materials to prove or disprove whether or not the cooling system is able to handle the load.

There are some basics about this thing, however, that make me wonder -- weight, length, ergonomics, etc. Right now Yamatai's LASR is probably not a match for the HPAR in theory (DR 4 and change vs. DR 5 confirmed) -- that's no problem. But I wonder why Nepleslia wouldn't, well, steal concepts from the LASR, as it's lighter and of a more manageable size. Admittedly it lacks the awesome capacity ... but the magazines are also a lot smaller and lighter.

I know the OOC reasons why NAM wouldn't just jack it; you guys are being original here. I'm just curious as to whether they'd try and steal it anyway.

Admittedly, that's pretty much it; there are oodles of assault rifles out there, but I wanted one, made by NAM, to be our standard. And, admittedly, I wanted it to be a little different...before I received the inspiration for this weapon (or rather, was handed the inspiration: you can thank Davis for that) I was just going to make some Joe-Shmoe LASR-like, mass-driver firing, generic armor-piercing round weapon that would be completely and utterly similar to every other weapon of its kind out there. I opted to at least try and do something different for our players. If the submission is denied or is proved to be just too impossible to ever work, I still have the normal gun writeup, and I'll try that hand. I've grown fond of the Money Shot. I like the concept, because I like the idea of Nepleslian soldiers wielding solid-based projectile weapons rather than beams; solid projectiles just seem grittier, and more Nepleslian.

In short, we didn't steal the LASR because I didn't want to; however, I would be fibbing if I said I didn't look at the LASR's wiki page for some numbers. I did compare the HPAR to Yamatai's LASR because, admittedly, I didn't want to surpass it. In fact, that other, regular Joe-Shmoe rifle I have written up looks a lot like the LASR. When you have a good idea, you go with it.

Yamatai is trying to do this with its own plasma weaponry, too -- give soldiers a basic, reliable rifle that will give the good damage without costing obscene amounts of resources (whatever they might be). Overall, I think the concept is really cool.

This is what I'm trying to accomplish. Lately, a lot of the new players, and some people just out of the blue interested in joining SARP have been giving me a lot of questions about powered armors and ships. When I have to give them five wiki pages, each of them filled with a unique armor with its own unique systems and unique weapons, I have to restrain myself from wincing as I picture their faces as they suddenly find themselves overwhelmed.

This submission is an attempt to find a standard for Nepleslia that is easy to pick up and run with, while still being effective and interesting. While having all of these nifty armors with unique attributes is great for our current population who can follow it, it's not so great for SARP-hopefuls...and I see this submission as a way to cater to both parties.

...and I'm happy to hear you think the concept is cool. I'm quite partial to it myself.

----

Ok, if we are talking about a weapon that uses what is essentially a shaped charge using electricity wouldn't the range be limited to about 7 feet-ish in an atmosphere for the same reasons that a shaped charge has a very small effective range?

The weapon doesn't use a shaped charge, though.

I've heard from two different sources that, technically, the metal-vapor propulsion method I used in the HPAR is leagues better than the gunpowder we use today. I can't scientifically confirm this, but at the time, I wasn't really in a mood to disagree.

 

[Zack]

Well, the weapon fires a jet of liquid out the front just like a shaped charge weapon or a super soaker. It isn't really about what is being used to generate the liquid jet, its just that a liquid jet is being used. When moving through the atmosphere it would deform and disperse much faster than a solid bullet.

That is the reason why spaced armor is so effective against HEAT rounds, and the reason why weapons like the RPG-7 don't trigger their molten metal death-jet until very close to the target.

 

[MoonMan]

Well, the weapon fires a jet of liquid out the front just like a shaped charge weapon or a super soaker. It isn't really about what is being used to generate the liquid jet, its just that a liquid jet is being used. When moving through the atmosphere it would deform and disperse much faster than a solid bullet.

That is the reason why spaced armor is so effective against HEAT rounds, and the reason why weapons like the RPG-7 don't trigger their molten metal death-jet until very close to the target.

The jet of material the HPAR is firing isn't completely liquid; it's semisolid. You can take that in many forms, from different viewpoints, but as I am to understand, it means that it still retains a measure of coherency and viscosity.

The stream comes out as a stream about as thick as a pencil, and needle-like...and I'm not sure how much more aerodynamic you need a needle-like projectile to get to remain fairly stable during flight. As for deforming...the kinetic penetration by force isn't the purpose of the round, thus formation isn't a priority. And as I see it, the 'spike' would remain fairly stable in flight because it's not a complete liquid, yet not entirely solid.

I didn't expect for this weapon to pick off a fly at the distance between New York and Hiroshima, which is why it's a rapid-fire weapon, meant for saturation and overwhelming rather than pin-point accuracy.

 

[Strangelove]

I hate to be a total spoilsport here but it really feels like you're putting originality over practical engineering. I'm not saying that's grounds for non-approval, given that SARP is a science fiction setting after all, but merely you should be aware that it may not make the best template for a cheap-yet-rugged standard issue rifle.

• You have a needlessly complex firing system. What I meant by on-site manufacturing is that the molten metal and shaped warhead is molded inside the gun. This complexity would make it higher maintenance and lower reliability in comparison to solid projectiles, grenades, or even lasers; I believe adding complexity is the opposite objective of making any standard issue mass production rifle.
• Recoil. The sheer force of not only accelerating a mass but also partially vaporizing it would create greater recoil than a traditional projectile weapon, further increasing impracticality.
• Semi-solid projectiles would be unlikely to work. Don't forget this round has to survive accelerating from 0-5000 m/s in 1/7th of a second. It would actually have to be quite hard to stick together, otherwise even if the acceleration process didn't deform it, the sheer air resistance would. And yes, it the air still would in spite of how thing it is; an object that long and thin would have a very high surface-area-to-mass/volume ratio, especially since it isn't rifled, so would be quite susceptible to the wind dispersing it.
• Accuracy. See above note on high surface-area-to-mass ratio. It suffers from the same problem as previously submitted flechette rifles, but doesn't even have fin-stabilization nor rifling to increase its precision. The high rate of fire coupled with the relatively high kickback only adds to the accuracy problem. I don't think maximum effective range should be anywhere near 5 km.
• Lack of penetration. Even assuming it is only semi-solid, then the tip hits it would cause a deformation not unlike a ball of dough turning into a pancake when thrown at a wall. It probably wouldn't remain coherent once the tip hit the enemy armor.
  • Deflection and heating. In fact, I imagine the sheer velocity would make most of the fluid/solid simply bounce off the target rather than stick at all. At those speeds the heat from the molten material simply doesn't have enough time to transfer over and "soften" the enemy armor up before the projectile fully impacts especially given in SARP lasers/plasma is common and thus armor would be quite thermal-resistant. Nor does it possess any effect strong enough to make it "stick" at that sheer heat level and speed, to my knowledge.

Essentially you're trying to create a weapon that has both the properties of a projectile weapon and plasma one rolled into one, which in turn creates a myriad of scientific and engineering issues. It just doesn't seem practical no matter what angle you look from it. It could be done with some fancy talk and verbal slight-of-hand (for example, introducing a revolutionary new metal alloy that makes it all click together), but it still doesn't strike me as a good candidate for a standard issue mass produced weapon.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I'll address this further tonight, but for the record -- complexity in terms of the firing system is OK. It doesn't have to be perfect, so while Moonie might want to consider that in presenting this weapon, the submission won't be denied on that basis.

 

[MoonMan]

I hate to be a total spoilsport here but it really feels like you're putting originality over practical engineering. I'm not saying that's grounds for non-approval, given that SARP is a science fiction setting after all, but merely you should be aware that it may not make the best template for a cheap-yet-rugged standard issue rifle.

Ah. Well, I guess I can just stop reading there, then.

But for the sake of argument, I'll continue.

[*]You have a needlessly complex firing system. What I meant by on-site manufacturing is that the molten metal and shaped warhead is molded inside the gun. This complexity would make it higher maintenance and lower reliability in comparison to solid projectiles, grenades, or even lasers; I believe adding complexity is the opposite objective of making any standard issue mass production rifle.

It's no more complex or even plausible than putting a mass driver in something the size of a service rifle. People just *think* mass drivers are simple because they're easy to understand when, in fact, it's either impossible or horribly ineffective to reduce a mass driver or rail gun to that size. Who's to say that Nepleslia hasn't used this method before, either? For all we know, they could've been doing this for years.

[*]Recoil. The sheer force of not only accelerating a mass but also partially vaporizing it would create greater recoil than a traditional projectile weapon, further increasing impracticality.

Which is more or less taken care of by the fact that the armored soldier holding the weapon weighs roughly 2-3 tons. I personally think recoil from nearly anything in hefty Nepleslian armor is moot, unless we're firing cannons with bullets the size of minivans.

[*]Semi-solid projectiles would be unlikely to work. Don't forget this round has to survive accelerating from 0-5000 m/s in 1/7th of a second. It would actually have to be quite hard to stick together, otherwise even if the acceleration process didn't deform it, the sheer air resistance would. And yes, it the air still would in spite of how thing it is; an object that long and thin would have a very high surface-area-to-mass/volume ratio, especially since it isn't rifled, so would be quite susceptible to the wind dispersing it.

Of course we can't keep all the metal pieces flying together in the same piece. Some will fly off to the side and inflict collateral damage, but the majority of the metal, I would think around 70% would hit its mark. More than enough to complete its purpose

And it does have a rifling system in the barrel.

[*]Accuracy. See above note on high surface-area-to-mass ratio. It suffers from the same problem as previously submitted flechette rifles, but doesn't even have fin-stabilization nor rifling to increase its precision. The high rate of fire coupled with the relatively high kickback only adds to the accuracy problem. I don't think maximum effective range should be anywhere near 5 km.

This is not a precision weapon. The kickback, in most accounts, would be utterly negligible to someone in Nepleslian armor. It has rifling, which aids in accurate performance but does not allow you to snipe an apple off of somebodies head. Maximum range is 5km because if I'm firing this weapon at you from that distance, at the RPM I've specified, after a certain amount of time I will hit you. It won't be often, but it will happen eventually. Any farther than 5km, and I wouldn't hold my breath, however.

[*]Lack of penetration. Even assuming it is only semi-solid, then the tip hits it would cause a deformation not unlike a ball of dough turning into a pancake when thrown at a wall. It probably wouldn't remain coherent once the tip hit the enemy armor.

Pretty much, yeah.

Seeing as the point of each round is not its penetration by kinetic force, but through its penetration through either vaporizing the object it touches or transferring heat directly to the 'pancake' area, I'd say this is a good thing. When the shot doesn't directly vaporize through the target, the transfered heat will either attempt to soften the metal beneath it AS WELL AS superheat the surface area...something I realized might be effective as well; turn enemy armor into walking ovens. Neato, I didn't think of that.

• Deflection and heating. In fact, I imagine the sheer velocity would make most of the fluid/solid simply bounce off the target rather than stick at all. At those speeds the heat from the molten material simply doesn't have enough time to transfer over and "soften" the enemy armor up before the projectile fully impacts especially given in SARP lasers/plasma is common and thus armor would be quite thermal-resistant. Nor does it possess any effect strong enough to make it "stick" at that sheer heat level and speed, to my knowledge.

• 
  
  The real-life copper counterpart of the round had plenty of time to transmit enough heat to vaporize its way through the steel plating.
  
  Perhaps similar to, say, depleted uranium, which crumbles bit by bit as it hits the target and the 'dust cloud' formed melts the plating instantly.
  
  If approvers need a sciency term to make the round plausible: Since the metal's conductivity is so high as well as it being highly heated, the conductance of a high amount of heat would be near instantaneous. Current armors in the setting most likely do have thermal-resistant armor, and they absolutely have kinetic-resistant armor...but, apparently, solid rounds still either pierce or bounce off, and plasma either melts or it doesn't. This weapon as is is no more effective than either.
  
  

  Essentially you're trying to create a weapon that has both the properties of a projectile weapon and plasma one rolled into one, which in turn creates a myriad of scientific and engineering issues. It just doesn't seem practical no matter what angle you look from it. It could be done with some fancy talk and verbal slight-of-hand (for example, introducing a revolutionary new metal alloy that makes it all click together), but it still doesn't strike me as a good candidate for a standard issue mass produced weapon.

  
  I appreciate your opinion, as well as your scrutiny. It's sure helped clear up a few things that might have made some of the users tilt their heads in the use of the HPAR.
  
  
  
  
  EDIT: After talking to Doshii a bit, I've reduced the effective range to 2,000 meters, or 2 kilometers.

 

[Andrew]

I have been following this conversation. It is my opinion that this submission is adequate for approval. The range now is acceptable.

Approved for IC usage.