Rejected Submission [Nepleslia] Na-V6-W3800 "HAMMER" (Heavy Anti-Matter Missile, Extended Range) Weapon System

[FrostJaeger]

• Submission Type: Long-Range Anti-Matter Missile
• Submission URL: Linky

• Faction: Nepleslian Star Navy
• FM Approved Yet? No, @Luca (or is it @CadetNewb, now?)
• Faction requires art? Not that I'm aware of.
  
  For Reviewers:
  
  • Contains Unapproved Sub-Articles? Nope.
  • Contains New art? Nope.
  • Previously Submitted? Nope.
  
  Notes:
  
  Yay for obscenely-long thread titles!
  
  ...anyhoo, not terribly happy with the "About" section on this one, but in all honesty I have no idea whatsoever what else I should add there....

 

[Wes]

There is currently no Nepleslian FM, so it falls to me to give faction approval.

My main concern with this is the speed. In SARP we have almost nothing that goes faster than .35c (presumably because of time dilation effects). I just don't think it really fits the setting that great. Does anyone else feel this way?

 

[Zack]

I̶s̶ ̶C̶a̶d̶e̶t̶N̶e̶w̶b̶ ̶n̶o̶t̶ ̶t̶h̶e̶ ̶N̶e̶p̶ ̶F̶M̶?̶
̶W̶h̶y̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶l̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶G̶u̶n̶h̶a̶n̶d̶ ̶b̶e̶ ̶r̶e̶s̶p̶o̶n̶s̶i̶b̶l̶e̶ ̶f̶o̶r̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶r̶o̶v̶a̶l̶?̶
̶A̶s̶ ̶N̶e̶p̶ ̶F̶M̶,̶ ̶i̶s̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶y̶o̶u̶r̶ ̶f̶e̶e̶l̶i̶n̶g̶s̶ ̶o̶n̶ ̶t̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶e̶n̶o̶u̶g̶h̶ ̶t̶o̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶h̶o̶l̶d̶ ̶a̶p̶p̶r̶o̶v̶a̶l̶?̶

Is there a standard speed for space-missile-weapons in the setting? This has come up before recently and an answer was never really given by the approval mod. A space-missile that travels at .35c is fairly useless because it couldn't catch anything. Even missiles traveling a little bit faster than that wouldn't be much use because point defenses would have plenty of turns to shoot them down. There are also plenty of weapons that travel at near-c or above C speeds. The only things that are limited to below .35c are usually starships.

On the other hand, things that travel at near-c speeds don't need anti-matter warheads because of the force they already carry. They also tend to be fairly big because you need a rather powerful engine to get up to that speed.

 

[Centurion0507]

Antimatter warheads on missiles going that fast are good ideas in order to be able to get proximity soft kill s on things like armors and fighters.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Is there a standard speed for space-missile-weapons in the setting? This has come up before recently and an answer was never really given by the approval mod.

Next time, just say me. I'm not a coward about it, y'know.

From what I recall, we were treating fired projectiles like we treated starships inside a star system. They could zip and accelerate to their target, then had to drop out of FTL before hitting it.

This came about because of the Z1, an attempt to correct the OPness of the AS-7.

See mentions of it here, a passing mention here, and finally the agreed-on engagement guidelines here.

So when it comes to "catching" a target, a torpedo has to do it by FTL travel, then pop out into STL travel and then hit it. The .375 c number is Yamatai's because of its tech level; a less-advanced faction would have lesser speeds. Nepleslia is one of the Big Three, so it gets full-speed torpedoes.

 

[Zack]

Unless I missed something, none of the above links seems to deal with maximum STL speeds for projectiles.

 

[Doshii Jun]

You didn't miss anything. Nor did I say that I had the exact answer you wanted.

That particular answer I don't have, and I have a feeling it's because it doesn't exist in a post that I can point to. That's just how things have evolved.

@Wes, would you like STL speed limits? If so, I can add them based on the scheme above. I recommend we add something, because right now we have no firm rules.

 

[Zack]

So you give an answer that is off topic, and then confirm that you were wrong in a previous thread about the topic?

I would also think that discussing how to change a setting element shouldn't be part of this submission, which should be judged by the rules we have in place now.

Sure .95c is fast, but that isn't exactly unique for a space-missile.

 

[raz]

There are approved torpedoes/missiles that go faster than .375c in STL. This makes sense because .375c is the hard cap for STL vessels, so if they couldn't go faster than ships they'd be absolutely useless technology. I think .95c is way too fast and advanced for Nepleslian tech, but I don't think it's crazy to have missiles go faster than speed standards.

Sounds like it's time to wait for Wes to see if torpedoes going faster than .375c requires an FTL drive going forward.

 

[CadetNewb]

In all honesty, I think .95c is too fast for any missile or torpedo. That's basically the same territory a projectile weapon like a gauss cannon or railgun needs to be in order to compete with directed energy weapons. Maybe .550c is a good velocity for missiles and torpedoes? I admit, it's still not addressing just how far out or close in one can drop out of FTL to begin their final approach though.

 

[Zack]

Current rules would dictate you can drop out of FTL right next to the ship if it is outside of a hill sphere (deep space) but if it is in a star system then your FTL shuts off at the edge of the star system and you'd have to rocket your way towards the target after that.

 

[Doshii Jun]

So you give an answer that is off topic, and then confirm that you were wrong in a previous thread about the topic?

I would also think that discussing how to change a setting element shouldn't be part of this submission, which should be judged by the rules we have in place now.

Sure .95c is fast, but that isn't exactly unique for a space-missile.

I gave an answer that helps formulate how to respond to this. Didn't say it was the end-all or that I was "right."

I, chief tech mod, also was talking to the setting manager with my question.

Not you.

Setting submissions are always a chance for us to examine just what we're doing in SARP and how we want to do it in the future. If you don't like that ethos, you're free to not submit anything.

 

[Zack]

My point is that you're getting off topic.

This isn't an FTL missile, so your first post doesn't apply to anything we've been talking about. This really concerns me because more than half of the interactions I've had with the chief tech mod have been me having to correct the chief tech mod on what the rules for the settings tech approval process are. Its frustrating to new users, and to me, like when the people at the drive through don't give you jelly for your hash browns.

And in the interest of fairness, adding in new rules to the setting should have its own page that everyone should comment on. You can't hold Frost at fault for violating rules that didn't exist.

 

[CadetNewb]

Zack, you're getting off topic. Doshii's stellar performance as tech mod is NOT on the table for discussion.

@FrostJaeger - you've basically come up with an idea that, though subtly different from the norm, basically is in an area where there aren't really that many rules. It's not every day this happens; good job man. Still, this'll take a while, since we're going to have to figure this out as we go.

 

[Zack]

Recently Doshii has:

* Forgotten entirely about the 3 month rule for new species.
* Had to have the DR rules explained to him for shields because he didn't understand them
* Had to have the DR rules for weapons explained to him because he didn't understand them.
* Had to have the speed standards explained to him.

If I did my job as well as Doshii, I would be fired.

 

[raz]

In real life, torpedoes can go around 20-40 percent faster than ships. We're in space, though, so we're not working with water resistance and stuff. But the next cool real life example we have would be aerospace combat. Same story there, except real life technology is advancing in a way that'll probably make air-to-air missiles obsolete and unable to catch target planes! That leaves us with our imaginations for how fast space missiles should be able to go STL, since we have no real world R&D examples.

That said, I think @CadetNewb's .55c is a nice place for STL missiles. They can still outpace all craft (even things that have been approved above the standard) but don't approach the speed of light.

What's interesting to note is that real life air-to-air missiles only carry a little bit of fuel and then rely on their forward momentum to continue. So basically missiles are launched at the speed a fighter is traveling and then spurt forward even faster. I can only imagine that this effect is even more efficient in space because of the lack of atmospheric friction. Admittedly, this is just my dumb sci-fi thought and probably scientifically inaccurate.

You can't hold Frost at fault for violating rules that didn't exist.

Nobody faulted anybody, Zack. Wes asked for opinions to see if people agreed with his assessment of the speed fitting the setting or not. Doshii's contribution to the discussion simply involves creating a submission standard for future reference. There's not some weird power dynamic you need to stand up to. You're squandering your part in the process.

 

[Centurion0507]

Also, the thing that would make sense is that a missile that hits that speed would likely have to go ballistic entirely for the last quarter to half of its trajectory.

 

[Zack]

My interest here is in accuracy and fairness, and I am very much limiting myself to those two topics rather than digging into the technical aspects of the submission.

If we want to be realistic about speed standards then we should be talking about DeltaV rather than top speed, as in space you can keep accelerating as long as you have fuel, there really is no 'Top Speed'. That being said, top speed would seem to be more of a general guideline about how fast things are so we can determine what can catch what in RP. In this case there are a lot of items already in the setting that move at close to C speeds so this submission doesn't really bring anything new to the table in that regard.

In the interest of fairness, I really think missile speeds needs its own thread because it is a major part of the setting. For example the knock-on effects of .55c speed is that missiles fired from the maximum engagement range are going to take about 9 minutes to reach their target. That's 58 rounds of point defense shooting.

 

[CadetNewb]

Zack. So long as you're here, stay on topic, or get out. Consider this a warning.

@FrostJaeger - with the missile as it is, you need to keep in mind that there's a very large window of opportunity for point defenses and anti-missile countermeasures to work on it. Since it's space, they'll be seen coming from pretty far away, which is why most use a short, in-system FTL jump and then begin a final approach. If you want the missile to approach entirely in STL though, I would suggest further enhancing the thing to have various countermeasures of its own.

 

[Zack]

In the interest of accuracy:

This missile travels at .95c. Maximum engagement range for weapons is 3 light seconds, beyond that they can't hit their target under the current rules.

Under the current FTL rules you can not use a short in-system jump, so adding an FTL system would only be useful if you're missile is being fired from, and aimed at, a target outside of a star system. In that case it could show up wherever it wants, make its attack run, and get shot at.

Traveling at .95c it covers those 3 light seconds in a little less than 6 seconds. There is time to effectively take one shot at the missile before it hits the target.