Neshaten Flag

[Wes]

This is the current Neshaten "flag":

Here's the article that explains the symbology.

There are a number of problems with this flag design, the first of which is that it doesn't appear to be a flag at all. It's not a solid piece of cloth (it's got cutouts in the middle) and it has rounded edges. It looks more like a carving or something. Second, the flag is so dim that it's almost invisible against the starmap or the dark background of the default wiki template. If you saw it from a distance it would look like a blob with a "dark mixed Play-Doh" color.

Here's the 5 basic principles on designing a great flag, according to both Ted Kaye, author of the book, Good Flag, Bad Flag: How to Design a Great Flag, and the North American Vexillological Association:

1. Keep it simple, so simple a child can draw it from memory.
   
2. Use meaningful symbolism.
3. Use two to three basic colors.
4. No lettering or seals of any kind.
5. Be distinctive or be related.

We can see that, besides the obvious flaw of not being a flag, the current Neshaten flag severely lacks in having basic identifiable colors and it lacks in simplicity. This thread is a request to FM @Kyle to use this image as a seal or other symbol, and to allow for a new flag design to take its place as the flown flag, and to allow people to make suggestions for it in this thread. Yamatai went through a similar process a while back. So, Kyle, will you let people suggest new flag looks?

 

[Kyle]

This is the flag of the faction Wes, this is how they design their flags. Their flags always have a 'rounded' to them on the edges although admittedly the left hand side probably should've been flat but I decided that it wasn't needed. This is also a picture that I pulled from an animation. In other words; the Neshaten do not approuch their flag making the same way other factions do.

Now, while I will accept suggestions for this; I won't accept the removal of the symbols or the rounded edges on the far right. Plus, any new flags proposed for my faction will have to be approved by my Co-FM's and I, since this is something that effects the faction as a whole I will also talk to my players about it to get their input.

 

[shadowclasper]

I fail to see why the assumption should be made that an alien species would follow the same principles of 'flag' design as other factions, and in fact, maybe the Nashaten wouldn't even use bits of cloth waving about, instead using, for example, "Icons" such as were used by various crusaders (literal carved stone plates lifted on a pole) at one point in history.

There's plenty historical examples, even among flags, that do not hold to those precepts, except that one edge of them was flat, and that's just because of simple mechanics.

We're living in a setting with holograms, metamaterials, anti-gravity, etc. There's no reason there wouldn't be very inventive 'flags' that were not actually pieces of cloth flapping about on a pole in the wind.

 

[Syaoran]

I really can't believe you pulled this Wes. Firstly flags don't' even have to be rectangular, they can be circular if they want. Secondly that could be the -emblem- stitched onto a flag. A flag does not have to e an all encompassing design that nothing can be different. That is an earth idea. Even the cut out could be there, because maybe the background isn't important for their flag design, maybe it's the emblem. There are numerous reasons as to why what Kyle has could qualify as a flag, and nothing you posted actually disqualifies it. (Also those 'cut outs' might not even be cut outs, they could just happen to be the same or similar color to the background)

Remember the Neshaten are a non human based race, why would they have the same flag design principles as us?

 

[Amaryllis]

What about the flag of Brunei?

Spoiler

What about the flag of Cambodia?

 

[Doshii Jun]

Is there any way to make it brighter? The image does seem really dark.

 

[Ashlinn]

And not all flags are flown from mast or a stand.

Like this.
This.
And This.
(all links are Safe/pre-scanned.)

don't forget the style of flags seen in modern and old school sci-fi movies, games and designs on books.

 

[Syaoran]

Is there any way to make it brighter? The image does seem really dark.

A 'map version' of the flag could easily be made if need be with flatter brighter colors and simplified images to use as a marker for maps.

 

[Born-On-Board]

was this really the best place for this discussion?

it's one thing not to like a flag but did you have to put it on blast to everyone wes? this'd be better in a PM.

also, concerning the flag, I've dredged up the dictionary definition by way of merriam-webster:

1. 1 : a usually rectangular piece of fabric of distinctive design that is used as a symbol (as of a nation), as a signaling device, or as a decoration.

nothing the neshaten flag does disqualifies it from this definition. I understand the cutouts make the picture you've linked not look terribly -like- a flag, but it's not like modern dying techniques couldn't reproduce a similar effect. and the manual you linked merely concerns itself with what the author and the committee they write for consider a 'great' flag, which is an inherently subjective term. they are not objectively unbreakable laws, merely guidelines.

if you wanted to tell kyle you didn't like his flag and were willing to discuss it with him privately, I think you'd get farther.

 

[shadowclasper]

Heck, even if we ignore modern dying techniques, then you have stuff like metamaterials, molecular forging, all the post-singularity techniques that are available to just about everybody in the setting to produce weird 'flags' that wouldn't behave like dyed cloth normally would.

 

[Wes]

I'd really prefer a rectangular flag because that's what the starmap is set up for. But the shape isn't really the point, the point is that I want to see something that is a plausible design that would work as a an object made of cloth. Something 2D and flat. Something I could send an IRL flag making company and they'd be able to make.

Here's an example:




Here's the transparent PNG I made of the Neshatan peace symbol in case anyone wants to use it in their concepts.

I used this to make it: https://www.reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/2ei5wf/flagmaker_17_flagmaker_jr/

 

[Syaoran]

Wes you didn't even listen to what Kyle said. The picture of the flag is taken from an animation, a moving image that if I remember correctly -was- a piece of cloth blowing in the wind. It does work as a cloth. And you talk about making things symbolic, but you changed the colors up, totally ignoring that there could be significance in the color, you also changed the patter, ignoring that as well. And honestly speaking that flag you made isn't even pleasing to look at and it looks like one of Yamatai's flags.

 

[shadowclasper]

Again, why would the flag have to be made from cloth?

It's an alien species. They evolved in a different ecosystem, with a different neurology and biology, and with an entirely different cultural history.

There is literally no reason for them to use 'Flags' as the markers for nations in the traditional sense, and instead put up something else entirely as a stand in, because they'd find the idea of flapping bits of cloth around to be stupid for whatever reason, just as we'd likely find THEIR method to be stupid compared to ours for entirely different reasons.

The map friendly version is probably a good thing though. That's a thing that needs to be done just for simplicity's sake and keeping things easy to read on the map. But it's no reason why their full blown flag, as defined in their wiki entry, wouldn't be something else entirely, only using the 'flag' slot because it's the closest thing that can be equated to whatever they use.

edit: Also yeah, the flag you made doesn't even look close except that it uses blue and red and has the central symbol... I mean, I get where you're coming from, but it's still a bit crass.

 

[Fred]

@Wes you're going by this wrong.

Reading the above, I've been able to determine the following: nobody actually cares what rules there are for a flag. While some of us have been in the military, most of us haven't... and we don't see the value or the allure of the crisp designs you seem to want to allude to. I don't care either, and you're even coming off as borderline offensive - though I figure from your stance you feel in the right and perhaps haven't noticed.

My suggestion is to address the following question:
"On my starmap, we're going to use rectangular flag representations for faction territories. What method might best represent the Neshaten in this way?"

That way, you're not invalidating the Neshaten flag, but you're promoting to think about 'translating' if for starmap/embassy purposes.

Meaning that in-character, the Neshaten government communicating with the YSE one for arrangements at Reikan park could end up seeing this dilemma about how Yamatai wants to array flags on their grounds and could go we'll figure something out.

 

[Syaoran]

I would like to point out that this has nothing to do with being in the military. There are military related flags from countries that are not rectangular. And if we look hard enough we'll probably find at least one non-ractangular American flag too. There is no such thing as flag 'rules'. Don't act like you're enlightened to something and we're just people who don't care. This is strictly a matter of opinion, and that's why this is wrong. Not only is Nesha's flag actually a flag in the conventional sense (I have actually seen the animation before, it's a freakin flag waving in the wind, so stop acting like it's not cloth) but it has no obligation to be a conventional flag. Stop being so close minded, you talk about wanting more alien races that aren't humanoid but you get upset at non human ideology? That makes no since.

Edit: That is the plural you, speaking generally to everyone to whom it concerns.

 

[Semjax]

Its the nations choice what the Flag is, frankly Wes, If the Neshaten wanted a giant squid shaped flag with polka dots and hentai drawn on it its their right to have that, its their decision not Yamatai's, nor Nepleslia or anything like that. Sticking to Human Standards of Flags is silly in a setting where there are aliens with different cultures and beliefs and views.

What you're effectively asking by asking Kyle to change the flag, is the exact same as effectively asking another country IRL to change a flag cause it looks to much like another flag, its silly.

 

[Wes]

Again, why would the flag have to be made from cloth?

That's what flags are. Kyle's flag-thing is a 3D render. But I would very much love to have an actual flag to work with here (not just from the Neshaten but from all the factions).

I'm just throwing ideas here and hoping Kyle will like one of them.

So here's concept #2: It's simple (perhaps a bit too simple?) and distinctive.

 

[Syaoran]

@Wes IT IS NOT A 3D OBJECT for the last itme. It is a 3D animation of a FLAT CLOTH FLAG flowing in the wind.

 

[shadowclasper]

@Wes, I'd advise you stop digging a deeper hole for yourself and wait for Kyle to come up with something appropriate for the map if you need it to pop more, but the fact of the matter is, that even if we relegate it to cloth, given meta materials, modern dying and printing techniques, and not even taking into account all the crazy shenanigans you could get up to with post singularity tech.

You could still have a cloth (or cloth enough) flag that it would look EXACTLY like the original image.

You popping out designs like this is just going to offend people at this rate.

@Syaoran. Could you post the actual video by chance? It would help settle this matter I think.

 

[Syaoran]

@shadowclasper it was on the wiki originally it's not there now but @Kyle has it. However that's not even really needed, look at the picture, if you look closely the background blue and the 'cut out' are not actually the same blue. Meaning that part of the flag is actually blue, not 'non existant'