New Active Plot List Discussion

[Sigma]

I am posting here because I want to begin a discussion on the new Active Plot List. I am doing this of my own accord because I feel that as a GM, a member of SARP, and a player on here, changes to the site and how it provides information to players is something that should be discussed by the community as a whole. Not dictated to the players by someone higher up. And I will make no bones about this - the GMs were simply told to change the plot list.

There are two reasons for my posting here. As I said, I want to begin a discussion of whether this new format is actually helpful. I do not believe it is and will explain later. The second reason, however, is that I feel that neither the players nor the GMs are regularly consulted about planned changes to the site or setting. This too will be elaborated on more.

The Active Plot List
As it is, there is no organization or method to categorizing plots. It's neither by faction nor alphabetized. I do not like being arbitrarily given more work to do without being consulted. I am currently at a loss to see how this new format, which lacks any visible sign of prepared organization, is going to help players find information about plots.

Have anyone considered what 16 big blocks of information will mean and look like? It will be big long list instead of the current, condensed version. Whoever's plot is at the bottom will get the least amount of attention while the ones at the top will get the most, being the first to load onto any user's screen. Already, I have to scroll down to see anything about the second plot on the list. At least under the old system, everyone was displayed simultaneously, allowing for some fairness.

Feel free to disagree with me. I haven't seen any convincing argument to support this change. Thus far it has been either, "No one uses the Active Plot List anyway. They just find the plots on the forum." or "People who use the plot list are not worth getting to join since they're just going to Yamatai."

In the instance of the former, I would rebut, as to the necessity of such a drastic change in organization to something no one uses. In the latter, I would ask them to consider why just because Wes considers Yamatai to be the priority that we too must follow suit.

I will not comply with this order until these concerns regarding equity and organization are addressed. I do not believe I am being unreasonable to ask these questions, as some have implied.

The Way These Changes Are Implemented
I shall be frank here. I only found out about this when I logged on today when I had a banner which reads:

Hello Sigma! I need you and all the other GMs to immediately update your plot listing on the new plots page. Go here: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:active_plots - This notice will be removed once all GMs put their plots on there with the new template. Thanks! --Wes

I, personally, consider this be someone ordering me about to implement a change that affects the community as a whole without the community's consent. I do not consent to the changes and I do not believe such a change should be made without the wider playerbase's agreement.

In itself, the problem is a small one. However, there are other changes which, when added together, make me question the nature of our community.

For example: the arbitrary introduction of the Nekovalkyrja Upgrade Order and the threat of being relegated if a character disobeys.
For example: the unannounced policy change that all new plots MUST begin as an Open RP plot
For example: the sudden requirement for star systems to include astronomic data without a page saying what sort of data is required

These are three examples plus this new Active Plot List change. I can list more. In all cases, there was no discussion. Only immediate implementation and expectation of obedience. As a GM, I dislike that I have very little say in these matters. Especially ones which prevent me from properly creating the plot I want. However, SARP players have even less say in any matter. I believe that if we are the community we claim to be, then players too should have some ability to have input rather than finding out after it happens.

I will not go so far as to point the finger at only Wes. I cannot provide evidence that he did everything without consulting anyone. However, I can ask the entire Staff to account for these rather distasteful moves to change things without telling anyone or discussing whether they feel its necessary.

This is not the way I feel a community should be treated. It is insulting to both players and GMs.

One may rebut me with accusations of being mean and condescending to new players. That I am being hypocritical to talk about community when I show none of that spirit. I would say that I am challenging the players, GMs and the Staff to show that they are a community and make important decisions communally. That is the principle I protest on behalf of. Is this a community or not? Do the players and GMs opinions matter when it comes to making changes which affect everyone? Do my concerns, or anyone else's, even get addressed?

 

[Nashoba]

Actually the plots are being listed Alphabetically.

 

[Wes]

The list is currently alphabetized. As for organization and the length, I'm still considering whether the plots should be together (current), divided into sections by faction, or split into separate plot list pages for each faction. For now, I'm aimed at fairness and having everyone on one page and alphabetical seems like the most equal and neutral way to do it.

You say Yamatai has an advantage but since our plots start with YSS, we're lower on the page. So it's not the page's fault.

The old active plots page was confusing and not very informative because things had to be crammed into a tiny table. The new system allows GMs to make a case for their plot in their own words and advertise it while giving the essential info to players who want to find a plot without them having to hunt for it on 20 different plot pages.

Pretty much everyone who joins is told to go to this page so it's important that it does its job adequately, and the old page simply wasn't. It was also a huge pain in the ass for GMs to edit that giant table. Now it should be much easier for GMs.

As to the second part, yes, this is an order. I need GMs to talk about their plots instead of me just doing it for them, because they're the ones who know their plots best. Just put a little ad for your plot and full out the little info block. Use my Eucharis one as an example of what it should look like.

It's great that you're discussing the new page. If you have a better suggestion I'm listening. But please do not cause drama.

 

[raz]

Should probably alphabetize without YSS/NSS/WAP/etc ship designations so the list isn't essentially organized by faction anyway.

 

[Wes]

Should probably alphabetize without YSS/NSS/WAP/etc ship designations so the list isn't essentially organized by faction anyway.

I see where you're coming from, but I think that could make it confusing and people might not realize it's actually ordered, unless we go balls-deep library style with headers like "Wayward, The" and "Aeon, YSS."

 

[Doshii Jun]

Byakuren lacks an image, so I'm going to use Kotori for it. Should get it done tonight.

 

[Fred]

Doshii is amazing.

But I'd like to point out that I'm mostly in agreement with the points Sigma presented. To me, it wasn't broken and didn't need to be changed. Then again, I always thought this page was kind of useless as I'd base myself on what I'd see on the forum (where we actually do stuff) rather than the wiki (where we talk about the stuff we do on the forum). I've never been infatuated with Wes' idea of putting most of the information on the wiki alone, since it makes the forum devolve as an incomplete font of information that needs to use something else as a crutch to stand.

 

[Wes]

Byakuren lacks an image, so I'm going to use Kotori for it. Should get it done tonight.

That'll work! Thanks. Say, (@Fred and @Doshii, do you want me to try to make a crest for the ship or something? I have a lot of cool stock patch art that I can use for a basic shape and then change the details to suit the plot. Here's the stock I bought so far. Look at the patches I got and see if there's a design you like.

This goes for any other GM that needs an emblem. I can also get more than just these.

 

[Fred]

It's not worth working on a patch for Byakuren. When it becomes pertinent - which I expect may be more toward the end of my 2.x upcoming thread series - I'll have something different of my own.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I figured I'd crop down Kotori's image into more of a bust and use that. Kotori really is the centerpiece of the plot, when it gets down to it -- and like Fred says, he'll have art later that can replace Kotori if he so desires.

 

[Sigma]

But please do not cause drama.

If I wished to cause drama, I would have used pathos and sarcasm. I am using ethos and logos for my persuasion.

Thus far, however, I do not see the Staff (and I do include Wes in this) accounting for the wider issue of why sudden, arbitrary changes are made site-wide without consultation of even a portion of the community. Let alone informing the site. This order is only the latest example of their inability to engage with the community in decision making. Every other forum I know either makes an effort to get their members' opinions prior to making big changes or if a small group is going to make the decision, inform and explain to the community about those changes BEFORE those changes are implemented so as to find concerns and address them before implementation. Star Army, however, seems to have the unorthodox policy of not informing the community about major decisions beforehand and dealing with complaints after the fact.

All too often, I get "It's Wes, Sigma. Ignore it and choose a different fight." The problem is - It's all the same fight, with just a different iteration. The underlying issue of never informing or engaging the community remains. Species Restriction Order, the NMX invasion of Nepleslia, the Spacer Genocide, the Neko Upgrade Order, the Bot on the main channel, the quiet decision to make all new plots start as Open RP.

How many of those turned out well? How come the Staff is unaccountable and only Wes is to blame? I do not know. I rather think it is unfair for everything to be Wes' fault when there are also secret workings in the Staff forum that no one really knows about. The Staff don't tell anyone what they do, so lacking any information, all I can do is insist on greater accountability on their part to the community. GMs serve the players and their FMs. Some GMs are also Staff members but I haven't seen them talk about the Staff forum work. Who do the Staff serve? If the players are amongst those whom they serve, then it is their obligation to share information and explanations. If they do not serve the players, then please drop the pretense of this being a community. There is little evidence of wider communal voice in the decision making process. Come to think of it, I don't even know who is on the Staff!

Again, I say this to test the principle that we are a community. I care about principles. If there's not going to be a change in the way things are run, all you need to do is stop saying we're a community and I'll be quiet since there is no principle being violated.

 

[Syaoran]

I do agree with Sigma on the bigger issue that's being posed here. There does seem to be a bit of a lack in communication between different levels of the community. Granted yes there are some things that players shouldn't know, like how plots are gonna end and stuff, but in the end players are the most important part of an RP, cause no matter how great the staff/GM/FM/whatever are, if the players get frustrated the game will not run smoothly. Along with that I find the strangest thing, as with something that happened not to long ago, GMs have hardly any say in things. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying GMs should be all powerful or something. But GMs have to directly create content for the players, that's in essence their 'job'. FMs create a 'universe' and the Staff keep the 'community' together. But in the end, GMs are doing the plots. And while it hasn't happened yet, with how little say GMs have it's possible the 'higher ups' could end up making things happen in the SARPverse that most the GMs just don't know what to do with, and it could effect the quality of the site as a whole.

While I wont say things need to be 'restructured' I think there is a significant need for outlining what each level of responsibility it privy to, of course they don't have to be finite and perfect outlines, but some guidelines need to be present so all people of responsibility are aware of what they should be paying attention to and looking for. Along with this communication needs to happen more. Granted it's hardly ever going to be able to involve everyone, but it needs to involve as many as possible. We're all just individuals, there no way any one of us can appease everyone here on our own, if it were possible politics would be entirely different.

Sumamry: I think that SARP should spend some time laying out guidelines for what those who take up responsibility are not only responsible for and what discussions they should be a part of if they have something to say. Also communication should increase not just among staff but between all levels of membership, if anything just to talk to them and tell them what's going on.

 

[Wes]

It's my responsibility to manage and organize the wiki, and I don't think it's out-of-bounds for me to change the layout of any page, including this one, to improve it. Let me do my job. If you have a better layout, then start showing it to me and I'll use that instead if I like it. Otherwise, let me do my job.

It's also not unreasonable for me to tell GMs to update their own information on the wiki. Keeping the wiki updated is basic part of a GM's responsibility because the wiki is what makes the SARPiverse work. We all share a common setting. It's our collective memory of what is important. Without it, we wouldn't know what happened in each others plots because you can't expect people to read every post of every plot that ever happened. It's vital stuff! Writing a paragraph and providing the most basic of info about your game is a small request.

I can and will do it for you, but I shouldn't have to do this on top of all the other stuff I already do to keep the place running.

 

[Syaoran]

Wes you're missing the point a little. Sigma is talking about the plot page yes. But he's also talking about the communication between staff and players as a whole. He's not saying that you don't have the right to make changes or tell people to change things. In fact it's not about 'rights' at all, but more so an inquiry and request to increase the amount of communication before a -decision- is made. I wont go further into saying what Sigma is or isn't saying, as they are his words, I'm fairly confident that is what he's getting at though.

As for my post it is of similar nature. I am not saying you shouldn't be allowed to make changes(as you notice I put my plot up already, I have no problems with the new plot page personally), but it is as you said yourself. You already do a lot yourself. There are many people in this community in positions of some measure of responsibility that are -unable- to be responsible simply because they just don't know what's going on. So I'm suggesting a focus point on increasing the amount of communication. I'm not saying take power from you, or anyone else, but a body works by sending information from one place to another. If there's no discussion and informing going on and just people being told to do something, we can only follow orders, and we wont be able to grasp intent. Which will mean you'll have to guide us each step of the way, rather then us being able to take a little burden off yoru shoulders and think ahead.

 

[Sigma]

I was asked not to create drama. I must repeat that request to all participants.

If we are going to talk about responsibility, then as leader of this site, Wes, you are responsible to us. If we are the community you say we are, your actions and deeds are accountable to us. Since there is no formal means of having such an accounting, we are reduced to these open discussions. You do all the things you say but nowhere have I signed saying that I surrender my free will or right to protest a decision. The only individual I have pledged my obedience to is Kampfer. Prior to him, MoonMan. Prior to that, Kokuten. I obey when my leader proves he cares about what I say. Just because you do all those things, Wes, does not make a person loyal to you when you also do things which take people off guard with sudden decrees.

Find where I have said you have no right to lead the site. Either here or in the PMs I have sent to you. I do not mind any of that becoming public.

I shouldn't have to do this on top of all the other stuff I already do to keep the place running.

In a community, I shouldn't have to mindlessly obey orders which are forced upon me without my consent. Does everyone have equal say? Or do you mean to tell us that the only voice which matters, in the end, is your own?

 

[Doshii Jun]

Everyone who doesn't use colors has equal say. Once you start using colors, you lose it.

 

[Koenig808]

What a lot of us fail to realize is that this is not a true Democracy. Yes, we are a community of individuals, but sometimes policy needs to be pushed forward.

It's a fact of life, for better or worse.

Sigma, would it be an amicable solution regarding the Active Plots list to organize it into a

Portal Page > Faction Page > Plot Page layout?

Where:

Portal Page: Has the factions, governmental, independent or Open RP, listed so that a visitor can then go to

Faction Page: Which has a list of plots under the faction, which then leads to

Plot Page: Self explanitory.

I feel like this would give a interested person the ability to choose which faction they are interested in without having to deal with a huge block of text, and where all factions are represented and displayed equally and easily.

 

[Wes]

@Sigma Of course everyone has a say but in the end, this is my site and the buck stops here with me and I have to make these decisions. The site team has a hierarchical structure where the FMs are under me, and the GMs are under them. As a GM, you are part of that team. If you don't want to do GM jobs like putting your plot on the wiki, then don't be a GM. Everyone has the ability to freely participate in the site but for those I entrust to run plots and be the face of the site to regular players--the GMs--I do have an expectation that they follow my directives, which are usually things like completing plot audits, or updating their wiki pages if they're incorrect. We're supposed to work as a team. The fact that you're causing a confrontation over something so minor is unnecessary drama and it's intensely frustrating to me and I'm asking you, as admin, to stop. For further concerns not related to the layout of the wiki page, contact me privately.

 

[Nashoba]

Sigma,
Why do you insist on dredging up stuff that is ancient history. The Spacer Genocide was six years ago. Let it go.
As for the Species Restriction Order, that was done OCly to help Nepleslia by having non-Nekos join that faction.

As for equal say, that depends on the subject.

Wes quite often will put a suggestion out on the forums looking for input, comments, or suggestions. The majority of the time, its the same people who will comment about it. Quite often along partisan lines.

Is the redesign of the plot page a good or bad thing? To be honest I am uncertain. Would I have liked Wes to post a discussion, perhaps. But its also something that is minor. Its not a policy thing, it doesn't change how we do business. Its an experiment to help our new folks find a plot to join.

When a discussion about improving system quality came up. You and the rest of Nepleslia immediately refused the idea. Even though one of the sites goals has been to improve the overall quality of the site, and uniformity when it comes to things like star systems, planets etc.

When a discussion was held about approving characters, its curious that you nor any of the Nepleslian leadership even chimed in on the discussion.

You complain that Wes doesn't communicate or ask for input but how active have you been when he does?

 

[Wes]

Alternate idea:

What if we made the list of plots only have the text paragraph about the plot and a link to the plot's page, and moved the "plot info table" to the actual plot pages instead of the list?