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NTSE Issues

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Wes wanted to see actual roleplay come from this that wasn't a poorly written epilogue.
That's essentially correct. When I was defending DocTomoe to make sure that Wes had the courtesy of keeping him in the loop before anything drastic happened to them when the Asterian FMs/GMs were about to get thier mitts on them (something I also saw at the time as displeasingly vulture-like), Wes made it clear that he was making decisions for the benefit of the roleplayers we have here, not those that have mostly gone elsewhere.

And, if DocTomoe gets tagged/summoned in here, I have a response in advance for his rebuttal:

Bullshit. DocTomoe doesn't really roleplay here anymore. He is no longer the Lorath faction manager (I think Wes has that mantle right now?)

I make my GM 'career' out of most of Wes' loose ends. If Wes gives credence to getting some 'good' use out of factions without their head creators present anymore; Syaoran is correct: that's Wes' choice that's being disputed. Hence by precedent you ought to be fully prepared that if you ever make creations and then leave, Wes will keep them there, and other people interested in them may be allowed to interpret them. If Wes deeming DocTomoe's will is not to be taken into account creates a precedent that you do not like, then that's something that you'd need to fight for @raz .

I think the people here may have had a good point in that you've not been waging 'war' effectively. If that's the case, then that calls for a change of plans if you want to make a stand for other future instances.

Also...

I am Staffer Fred and this is my favorite Festivus in SARP!
Mostly because it happens to be the only one we've got so far. >_>
 
I am not going to redirect my criticism toward Wes. NTSE threads and those related to submissions are where people get reminded that they're disrespecting canon.
 
@raz I didn't ask you to leave I said you should take a non-toxic approach, get over it or leave.

You're not cute Raz, acting like you're taking the moral high ground. At least I didn't actually say you were bad for the community, however that is what you're saying about others. Please stop trying to make yourself look like the bigger man when all you're doing is veiling your ill intent with nice words. If you stopped posting, SARP would flourish about as much as if Asteria did. Because you know what's amazing? Neither you nor Asteria is hindering the site, what is is the BICKERING between you and Asteria.
 
Neither you nor Asteria is hindering the site, what is is the BICKERING between you and Asteria.
I will stop when they stop stealing the intellectual hard work of other creators.
 
They stole nothing. It was given to them by Wes. When the Lorath were written they knew that if they left the sight, control of it would go to Wes. That's part of the contract. Wes made his decision. You not wanting to take it up with Wes is just proof of how wrong your idea is. You want to try and convince people Asteria is in the wrong so you can get some kind of twisted satisfaction? But you don't want to go to the -1- person who has the actual power to -change- the decision. What kind of logic is that?
 
They stole nothing. It was given to them by Wes. When the Lorath were written they knew that if they left the sight, control of it would go to Wes. That's part of the contract. Wes made his decision. You not wanting to take it up with Wes is just proof of how wrong your idea is. You want to try and convince people Asteria is in the wrong so you can get some kind of twisted satisfaction? But you don't want to go to the -1- person who has the actual power to -change- the decision. What kind of logic is that?
Wes can see submission threads. He can see my opinion. I don't need to bombard his inbox with my personal whining because it's not really personal to me. These people are degrading the quality of the setting through their actions, and further seem not to care about what Star Army is about.That's what I objectively think, so I'll say it. There's nothing wrong with me saying it.

I don't need to pester Wes with what I've already said to everyone because of some misguided belief that annoying Wes is more effective.

But I feel like your question about logic was rhetorical, so it's not like all those keystrokes were worth the time.
 
I don't need to bombard his inbox with my personal whining because it's not really personal to me.
Then why are you still talking about it?

Are you saying that you do it knowing nothing will change? That means you're running a smear campaign or trying to harass them. That Violates Code of Conduct 1E.


Wes can see submission threads. He can see my opinion.

You say Wes can see your opinion and what you said in the NTSE threads. Well so can Asteria, they saw it, so why are you repeating it to them but not to Wes?
 
Are you saying that you do it knowing nothing will change? That means you're running a smear campaign or trying to harass them. That Violates Code of Conduct 1E.
I think the first sentence is true and have admitted it many times. But I don't think it's a "smear campaign" at all. Just because I know nothing will change doesn't mean I don't hope it won't one day change.

And if you want to talk about smear campaigns, just read the immediate reactions toward @FrostJaeger in this very thread and the constant, petty attempts to get other members banned by posting a thread about their behavior (and that crap never comes from me).

I don't really want to talk about smear campaigns, though. We're already 30 miles off topic! Was there ever a topic, here?
 
I don't have the time to call out every time that I should be demanding an apology out of you. You love slipping insults into every post. You enjoy skirting the rules just enough that what you're saying is "polite" and "helpful" and then you act like you aren't culpable for your actions because OMG lol you didn't mean it like that haha, etc. etc., lol I'm getting trolled lmao Asteria at it again amirite - Syaoran is right. This is cupidity.

And I'm sick and tired of it, and this is a moderated thread to air grievance, so you don't get to just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ your way out of this anymore. Get your big boy pants on and let's make this the last fight we ever have to have.

I've done a lot of legitimate things you could ask for an apology for. I've let people levy personal attacks; I've laughed at you, before. I've trolled you, bothered you, cussed you out in private messages; I've been banned for these things and that behavior. And I'm sorry. I've done you wrong, acted against my own principles. You could easily ask me that apology. And you know what? I've stopped. I want to stop. And I would like you to stop attacking me and my faction.

But I haven't asked you to apologize, though I could. I've done exactly what I said I would; if I can't apologize, I will explain why. You just don't like my explanation, which is that essentially your issue isn't with me, it's with Wes, and Asteria benefitted from his decision. I don't know what to tell you. If anything I'd be apologizing to DocTomoe, but I'm pretty sure that he just intended to leave a big middle finger to the website, which is something that's already been rectified (peacefully, might I add) so your demand for an apology to... you... ?

Whatever. You didn't get your way. It doesn't mean you get to bully other users who disagree with you, or who he ruled in favor of. It doesn't mean you get to pretend that you agree with him while not agreeing with him. I know what it's like to be an inch away from permaban myself, but Wes will explain to you if you ask him directly why he decided to do that. In fact, he did explain why he did those things, in those threads you're referencing.

So, what? Are you just butthurt he didn't cherish your opinion? Because ye gods, I can sympathize with that. I don't know why Wes makes half the decisions he makes, more than half to tell you the truth, and you're in a world of sympathetic ears.

Instead? You're saying I'm stealing from people who willingly give me things.

Your problem isn't with me, to my understanding of what you've said. So what is your problem?
 
I guess I’ll do the same. Maybe raz is right. Ive been rather course with you and your wife @raz. I’m sorry. I extend my fullest heartfelt apology.
 
I think the first sentence is true and have admitted it many times. But I don't think it's a "smear campaign" at all. Just because I know nothing will change doesn't mean I don't hope it won't one day change.

And if you want to talk about smear campaigns, just read the immediate reactions toward @FrostJaeger in this very thread and the constant, petty attempts to get other members banned by posting a thread about their behavior (and that crap never comes from me).

I don't really want to talk about smear campaigns, though. We're already 30 miles off topic! Was there ever a topic, here?
Doing the same thing and expecting different results is called insanity.

And all those people who got on Frost I -did- talk about them, you know what they did? They either acknowledged what they were doing, or pretty much stopped. Know what you did? You said you're better than the others. So yeah, only you are still being a problem.

There was a topic, you're constantly derailing it with your grudges, and Fred lets it continue because he's taking to the idea that it'll be best just to let everyone air their grievances till everyone is done.
 
Yeah, I've been an ass in the past and I'd rather just stop. This whole thread wasn't even meant to be about you guys.
 
There was a topic, you're constantly derailing it with your grudges, and Fred lets it continue because he's taking to the idea that it'll be best just to let everyone air their grievances till everyone is done.
Well, admittedly, nothing else has worked so far.

Might as well let people argue until they've argued themselves out.
 
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Thank you for your apology, @Gallant. Being angry in response often makes sense, even in retrospect, but nothing is truly a justification for explicitly spiteful words. I am sorry for the initial misunderstanding that sparked everything — whichever one that was — and whatever meanness stemmed from it and further disagreements that should never have existed.

I still don't think you guys should use Lorath stuff because the creator forbid it. You can believe what you want about Doc, but he hasn't proven to me that he has any spite about SARP. And I still think the way in which Asteria justified the Iroma there wasn't sufficient and that it was premature due to the fact that it doesn't really make sense yet. I care about the setting's integrity because I believe players get the most out of RP when the setting is the greatest and most contiguous thing it can be. Is that understandable?

Please do not take this as a non-apology. It's pretty good we can speak politely enough to get this far, and I genuinely, truly enjoy that mutual accomplishment. Part of that, for me, is not phrasing my objections in the way I have (especially the last few posts here) in the future.

Is that a sufficient Yule Tide Miracle YE 39 or can we RP?
 
@Fred sorry about that that came out bad. I'm not saying it's a bad decision, I'm just saying that this is only being allowed to continue because you're specifically letting it happen.
 
Thank you. I accept your apology for the spitefulness.

As far as canon, that's an understandable as a stance, though I do not personally ascribe to it. Following my own stance, I use my FM hat to create a living setting with some flexibility inherant, which reflects the actions of the players and gives meaning to their choices. To this end, I do not rigidly enforce Asterian 'canon', because it's my opinion that players are still writing and creating it. In this instance, I have allowed some of my own former plot's history to be interpreted in a way that will make it possible for someone who wants to RP an Iroma - a Player, as far as I'm concerned - to do so. Rather than rigidly enforcing an ironclad setting standard, I take the D&D approach, which is; players are exceptional, fudge where necessary if it means they're having fun. If that means we have an oddball Iroma romping around with a questionable history, I view that as an opportunity to better flesh out the character's background and personality - rightfully, the answer of 'why are there Iroma on Asura?' should be answered by a player, writing, not by me, the Faction Manager, in some high-level justification.

This is something I'm allowed to do as an FM of a Faction, and it's what I generally use that authority for. If someone has a cool concept, my answer is never going to be 'No', it's going to be, 'What can Asteria do for you?' and that's what I ask out of my Co-FM, and all of my GMs. You will often see me simply backhand or smack down arguments like the Iroma argument, because in that instance, I'm doing what I feel most empowers my players to continue. I will attempt to be more accomidating and genial in my arguments thusly in the future.

I'm glad we could come to civil terms here.
 
players are exceptional, fudge where necessary if it means they're having fun
Aha, now here's where I can talk on both sides of the wall.

On one hand I don't think SARP is the place for the D&D "Chosen One" approach, and neither is...D&D itself.

Think about D&D. What do you start off with? Killing the rat infestation in the tavern's cellar? Yeah. And what do you do at a higher level? Kill the lich king. Does this mean that the players are the center of the universe? Why did the lich king choose only now to arise? Why wasn't there any before the players got on the scene? Because there were other "chosen ones," of course. Other powerful adventurers wiped out lich kings long before the party was even a thing to be considered amongst the powers. So while the players are stabbing rats to death, there should be a scope of greater action going on. So then you can have crazy scripted defeats, crazy deus ex machina events saving you from scripted defeats, crazy everything happening.

In short, the idea that the player is exceptional...is the exception. (Unless you're one of the rare Good drow. Then you're automatically the exception even if you aren't exceptional. Or you're in my campaign because overtly you're exceptional, but even then there are greater powers than you.)

On the other hand I have written characters who have had "questionable" backgrounds that unfolded into things worthy of covering over entire plots. The worst thing you can do as a player, possibly, is to give a "dead" background. Nothing to expand, nothing to explore. (And that's why I hate Nekos. They start off "dead.")

The problem is you can very easily take a living background and turn it into a Mary Sue. (OMG he's calling people Mary Sues!) Shut up, if I'm calling people Mary Sues I'm insulting myself then. And if I write those so be it, I suck. Whatever. My point is it's a very finnicky balance. You need a great writer to even make a living background in the first place because they'll take that background and turn it into a work of art. But take a not good writer and they'll flub it.

I also do somewhat disagree with the idea that you should never say "no." Do I say no to my own D&D players? Very rarely. Heck, I didn't even say no concerning the spell Starmantle which was on one of my player's build paths -- albeit I modified the spell heavily to bring it in line. But when I do say no, it's my players trying to pull some weird applied physics debauchery out and attempting to break the action economy and rules of the game. Every decision you say "no" on should be due to because it would cause some form of breakdown of the rules set in SARP, or because it would weaken the setting's continuity and plausibility.

Am I against Asterian Iromans? No. I just find it odd that Iromakuanhe are actively participating in a suzerainty of Yamatai when Yamatai and the Iromakuanhe Commonwealtth barely talk to each other anyways. I'm not gonna deny that there might be some pretty crazy lore stuff going on there but it's gotta be really well written or it's gonna cause degredation of the setting.

Then again I'm the guy who took a hot dump all over D&D canon and made elves paranoid communists who've fortified every last square inch of their turf with magical traps and siege weapons and grow all of their food in giant spires, maintained by professional druids who are paid by the government.
 
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Well the way I see it is, not every Iroma is actually part of the opinion of the nation. With the exception of species that specifically have closed borders or specifically blocked from going somewhere, I figure there will be a population of that species in just about every faction after a while. Kinda like real life immigration.
 
Doesn't really sound like you see on both sides of the issue. Sort of sounds like you see on Raz's side of the issue, and gave some lipservice to mine.

Don't worry, I've got your back.

The reason that I take my stance on Asterian canon is simple; as a GM, I found that the FMs of Nepleslia, and Yamatai, were particularly stifling. Many people wanted to use SAINT or the IPG, or they wanted to write some sort of 'trouble' happening in lands that, canonically, should not have those sort of troubles. For instance, Yamatai is a utopia, SAINT Is infallable, the Star Army of Yamatai very rarely loses, and it has the best technology in the setting, Nepleslia used to be a military dictatorship, and so on. Many was the time when I heard, 'it would be cool if the Yamatai houses fought' or 'let's do a police plot' or something. I recall there was a plot in Nepleslia a while ago that used a SUBMARINE of all things, as a base of operations. People wanted to write little revolutions, sometimes, against the established canon. They looked at it sideways and said, it's too perfect. And, so did I.

I won't pretend that this is the right decision or that it's a decision that works in normal Star Army. It's canon that Yamatai is the best, for instance, though I'm not aware of current canon with Nepleslia - as I said, I don't pay attention to those things.

But I have deliberately written Asteria imperfect. Its government is effective, but diverse, a little confusing sometimes, and decentralized in large part. Its military is primarily the Shield of Asteria, but the various systems all field their own militaries, with as much color and flavor as any other little faction on the website. They use stuff from S6, from Styrling, from the Pact, from Origin - from wherever they can get their hands on it. They use old UOC gear in some cases; in some cases, they're RPing producing or testing new gear, or discovering new tech, on planets that have, canonically in the instance of HX-14, been already scanned.

As an FM I can get away with, for instance, allowing a GM to say that HX-14 was scanned but all the people there disappeared for some reason important to their plot.

If someone wants to make Iroma a thing in a plot, I'm OKay with allowing the GM to reference some obscure ship crash somewhere. Or for some random first contact with a new species (that flies around in goddamn star-sailing ships, @Gunsight1 , and they are fucking beautiful space tieflings), I can give a light shrug and say, if it's important to your plot, you can do it.

There are some things that I do put my foot down on, but they're mostly due to the differences in culture between the Asterian setting system and the system usually gainfully employed by other FMs. For instance, you have to flesh out the stuff you want to use; that's a requirement. It becomes incumbent upon those people to make it make sense. Sometimes, they will fail. Often, much more often I find, they succeed.

Even in Star Army plots, I notice a proliferation of 'oddball' characters, or characters that aren't standard, or characters that aren't following orders or acting like military personnel, and the list goes on and on. You might not like the D&D Exceptionalism, but it's the mode of operation that most players ascribe to. Everybody, ironically, wants the pure unique snowflake edgelord, or at least they do at a certain point in their lives, and they write those whether you rigidly enforce some setting rule or not. The GM then, usually, makes some sort of rule exception or talks to the player about the inconsistency - and that happens, usually, here, too. I just let the GMs handle it, in those cases, because I'm managing the faction's image.

What we have come up with, although it may seem a little ridiculous, is a place like you're describing - but it's lampshaded very well. Odd things happen in Asteria, but it's a Frontier, so odd things are normal. Garts and NMX wage little wars in Tange. Some mormon elf converted to a Lorath heresy in Kotaku. Asura is a group of states that is currently dealing with an insurgency led by a bunch of body-hopping ex-Blackcoats. There have been weird chicken-calvary charges. There's people swinging swords around. There's powered armor, ships, snipers, and somehow without any mention of the Damage Ratings, or any consideration of how silly or ridiculous it looks, people have sat down and created real, moving stories.

People have died in Asterian plots. People talk about law, about morality, about sexuality and jealousy - people talk about right, and wrong, and just cause, and violence.

In the end, the setting, to me, can be flexible, if it allows people to write moving and entertaining stories, or to play their characters well. Etheral, for instance, is playing through his werewolf fantasies (sorry, Eth, I can't get away from how similar to werewolves your species is), vying in a weird love triangle between a literal Ahura/Lorr demon, a Gartagen, a (former) Nepleslian, for the love or attention of a Half-Elven sniper in service to the Mikado.

If you step back and squint at it? It's ridiculous. It's stupid. It's boring.

But it's not written by poor writers. Quite the contrary. It's actually really, stunningly amazing what people have done with this. A Helashio and a Vekimen, lacking modern weapons, just dueled each other in the center of a battlefield with cobbled-together powered armors and melee weapons recovered from a crashed NMX ship. A Kodian, one of the fan favorites in Knights of Asteria, died defending that helashio and a bunch of his friends, shot to ribbons by a rifle company.

From the outside looking in, I can easily see how many of the things that we are writing look very ridiculous and completely idiotic. However, I would maintain that much of the setting is a secondary concern; it just provides the backdrop. The characters are unique, have life in them, are written by people who genuinely care about what they write about. It isn't ridiculous to them, and although I find that it's sometimes ridiculous to me, often I can talk the GMs or sometimes directly the players into doing something that either makes more sense, comes more into line with Asterian canon, or in many cases, I just let them write that canon themselves.

The Asterian Marshals, for instance, came from someone wanting to play space cowboys. The Magister's Consortium, our new chief science/production company, was from someone wanting to Do Science! and now both of those factions serve an active and important function in keeping the country running. People got to write that.

So when I say that I never say no, if I can help it, that is what I mean. I will work with you to bring what you wish to write in line with the current canon, or sometimes if your idea is better, I will adopt it. I will do everything that I felt was offered to me as a player by Wesley, and by all the trust that he put in me when I was GMing, and playing in his faction, and I will also take all the things that I hated happening sometimes, and I will move beyond those things. I want Asteria to do well, and I want the site to do well, and I have never seen good come of an FM sitting around and saying that people can't use his setting elements, or that they cannot represent them.

That is what I mean by keeping a flexible view of canon, within reason. I don't let it get in the way of giving my GMs their tools, or my players their entertainment, and so far I've had nothing but good reviews from them and the GMs who have signed on have enjoyed the freedom and the ability to write in such a setting, which benefits from the work of countless players and multiple supporting FMs from other factions, in similar ways to the way in which Soresu offered to allow Iroma, in the way that Gunsight contributed those... kiriku... bird things, and so on and so on.

To me, Asteria really feels like a Frontier setting where no one culture totally dominates, and where independant, Asterian, or other plots, can have a hayday without worrying about being stifled by FMs worrying about their setting being made to look a little ridiculous sometimes.
 
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