Approved Submission [ONI] Indigo-class Guided Missile Frigate

As I stated numerous times in the original submission's thread, I personally believe that this submission is extraordinarily overpowered, as in its current form it is easily capable of destroying any other similarly-sized vessel in the setting - including, @Wes, the Plumeria - due to the absolutely ridiculous number of missiles it is capable of simultaneously launching over an extended period of time.

I'll go ahead and look this over since I reviewed the original.

For the record, link the unapproved sub-articles in the OP, since it makes my day easier.

Anyways, I notice that the article appearance could likely use a little work - on my computer, I see the opening paragraph, then the long chart, and the ship image right by it's base. The table of contents is on the right side like always, so they all form a sorta box with this big empty gap in the middle. No big deal though, and an easy fix.

• The launcher chart has a bullet point off to the right side of it; not sure if that's intentional or not. The chart itself doesn't seem to be listing the number of launch cells - it looks more like dimensions than anything else.
  
• Update the Talon missile page to include DRv3 (probably Tier 9 point contact, Tier 8 Blast Frag)
  
• The SPS-36 has some sort of redlink that needs fixing
• Remove the 'Data handling capacity' in the various comms systems - same reason as last time around, don't want hard numbers on that since there's no standard

Right now, I'm not entirely sure just how many missiles there are, and how they're set up, but I'm glad the DR on them is a bit easier to find. If you try explaining it to me here, I might be able to come up with a better way to have it laid out in the article.

Here is a list of the numerous unapproved subsystems included with this submission...


...and to answer your question, @CadetNewb, the Indigo-class Guided Missile Frigate is equipped with 216 LM-01 'Boruto' Modular Shipboard Launch Systems. Each is capable of launching 12 Tier 9 GIM-1 'Talon' Medium Range Guided Missiles or 7 Tier 11 GIM-2 'Toland' Long Range Guided Missiles per second, which why I personally believe this submission is ridiculously overpowered in its current form - as no other Tier 11 starship in the setting is capable of withstanding such absurd amounts of firepower. Granted, there is an in-universe restriction against this (atrocious, in my personal opinion) level of spam, as by default the Indigo has 60 Borutos loaded with Talons, 60 Borutos loaded with Tolands, and 96 loaded with article-less chaff and flares - but the wording of the Boruto's article makes it extremely easy to bypass this restriction.

Ultimately, though, the wording of the Boruto doesn't matter - because the Submission Rules don't allow "...justify[ing] overpowered or questionable abilities on...submission{s} by..." "...promising in-universe restrictions on use or availability[.]"


I also have several questions regarding the submission itself:

• Who produced the Nerimium utilized in this submission?
• Did @CadetNewb approve the usage of Origin equipment in this submission?
• Did @Soresu approve the usage of Zen Arms equipment in this submission?
• Why are many of the unapproved ONI subsystems listed above located in in the corp:zen: namespace?
• Why do many of these ONI subsystems have "zen" in their URL?
• Why is the Aino not mentioned in this submission? Why is its unapproved article in the corp:zen: namespace?
• Why is the Gauss-Impelled Positron Cannon listed as a Tier 12 weapon when the Broadsword-class Light Cruiser and the Paring-class Escort Destroyer have already established it to be a Tier 11 weapon?
• Why is the Type-39 Rapid Cycle Plasma Cannon listed as a Tier 8 weapon when it was approved as a Tier 6 weapon?
• Why isn't ONI following the Standard Product Nomenclature System?
• Why isn't this submission following the applicable template?

EDIT: @Wes - Given that it's a military vessel with roughly the same dimensions as a Plumeria, shouldn't the Indigo cost 1,800,000 KS due to what's said in the pricing guidelines?

Moved the table down a bit but sadly without the inline TOC the standard wiki TOC wreaks havoc and this is probably the best its going to get, all bullet points have been addressed to the best of my ability including the addition of DR to the Talon missile (it now has an unapproved tag until the end of this evolution). @CadetNewb

Arieg said:

this is probably the best its going to get

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That's not true at all. You're not even using the template, and we all know that tables and wraps are no excuse for ugly formatting ("[ ] In the proper format/template"). As a player and potential user, I'd like to see it in the proper template tbh, as yours is missing so much essential information we're used to having with ships. But the easiest solution would be to simply add an "About the Indigo" header after your intro graf and then describe the ship in prose (we always describe ships — or any tech — in prose on SARP just in case something happens to images).

Like this:

====== Indigo-Class Guided Missile Frigate (GMF) ======
The Indigo-class Corvette is the product of two corporations and heavily employs a Jiyuuian influenced design philosophy (one could argue that in the eyes of her engineers she's the spiritual successor to the Ayana-Class Escort). It was designed and produced by Oshima National Industries (ONI) and Origin Industries, with most of the involved design work coming from the first.
===== About the Indigo =====
The goal of the Indigo is to perform as a mass produced and effective escort style vessel while also able to operate on its own but still pack a potent collection of defensive armaments in the singular patrol role. Additionally due to the large nature (for a warship) of its cargo hold it can also act as somewhat as a 'fast' armed cargo ship. Production of the Indigo in its 'Flight-A' form began in YE 39 with Oshima National Industries (ONI) and Origin Industries, both producing their own licensed copies as part of the Indigo consortium production scheme.
==== Appearance ====
PARAGRAPH HERE ABOUT HOW IT LOOKS LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE GETS
{{picture}}
===== Operations Guide =====
TABLES AN' STUFF

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Honestly, though, replacing the "Statistics and Performance" section with a huge eff-off ugly table box is the main problem. Just use the standard template, rofl.

Also, this sentence doesn't make sense whatsoever: "A light but versatile hull form below are listed the primary roles the Indigo's designers envisioned for the ship, first and foremost is as a light escort akin to the various similar vessels found in the Kikyo Sector."

Tweaked the sentence but I like my template.

Arieg said:

Tweaked the sentence but I like my template.

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It doesn't matter how much you like your template, Arieg, as it doesn't match the pre-existing starship template.

It's also nearly impossible to read on mobile devices.

As an end user, I don't actually mind alternate templates. They can look cool if done right. But anything alternate should still contain all of the same information that the standard template does, and the Indigo falls short there.

Guys, this isn't meant to be a saturation attack. It's my intention to work at this at a fair, steady pace as to not overwhelm. Putting that aside, not following template is acceptable so long as it looks good, and has all the same info. Also, Nerimium is common-pool tech, and I'm the head of Origin - I would have made a fuss if I minded.

• Fix the wip namespace issues, move stuff out of zen and into oni where it belongs
  
• Don't forget Standard Product Nomenclature
• Make it a bit more expensive than the Plumeria, since it has add-on weapon systems in the form of missiles and the Plumie doesn't yet
• Make a chaff and flare sub-article; it'd be nice to know what they work on and what they don't
• Organize the opening blurb and operations guide paragraph into an About and History

*****

@Alex Hart , I missed the tags in the approval threads for your two ships - the Broadsword and the Pairing - but you definitely have my green light to use the Gauss Positron Cannon. However, both of them need to be bumped up to Tier 12 since they've become too light in the transition between DRv2 and DRv3.

- Fixed
- Fixed
- The Plumeria is a Yamataian warship and using it as a comparison is a farce for several reasons, one its a Yamtaian warship manufactured for military use only thus cost isn't a factor in the design. Two it employs exotic weapons (aether) and exotic uber expensive alloys including Zesu in its manufacture. Thus I feel I've priced the Indigo at a decent point.
- Deleted from the selection.
- Added 'About the Ship and General Operations Guide'

Arieg said:

Added 'About the Ship and General Operations Guide'

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According to the edit log, all you did was add "About the Ship and General" to the text of the header. Cadet asked you to "organize" stuff differently, not just change the text of a header.

Also, this is what your article currently looks like on the mobile market's best phone:

CadetNewb said:

[...] Putting that aside, not following template is acceptable so long as it looks good, and has all the same info. [...]

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With all due respect, @CadetNewb, the Submission Rules (emphasis mine)...

The Submission Rules said:

[...]
e. Use the standard format or template, if applicable
f. Follow the Style Guide
[...]

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...and the Style Guide (emphasis mine)...

The Style Guide said:

[...]
3. Articles of a common type (such as starships or guns) should adhere to the common format (see Templates) and look like other articles of that type.
[...]

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...say differently, thereby proving that "...not following [the] template..." is not "...acceptable[.]"

*******

Arieg said:

[...]
- Fixed

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False, as neither the Indigo's article nor any of the subsystems mentioned in an earlier post have been updated with the appropriate nomenclature. Remember, Arieg, that the Submission Rules state the following (emphasis mine):

The Submission Rules said:

[...]
3. If a question/objection is raised during review, is is not acceptable to merely answer in the forum thread; the wiki article must also be edited to reflect the response.
[...]

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***

Arieg said:

- The Plumeria is a Yamataian warship and using it as a comparison is a farce for several reasons, one its a Yamtaian warship manufactured for military use only thus cost isn't a factor in the design.

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You're missing the point, Arieg. It doesn't matter who makes the Plumeria or whether it's exclusively for use by the military; rather, what matters is the quality put into its construction. Since the Plumeria is a warship just like the similarly-sized Indigo, they're both in the same class [Starship (Military) - Size 3] according to the Pricing Guidelines.

***

Arieg said:

Two it employs exotic weapons (aether) and exotic uber expensive alloys including Zesu in its manufacture.

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Zesuaium is just as expensive as Nerimium, thereby rendering that point of your argument invalid - and whether or not something utilizes aether weaponry has literally no effect on its overall price, especially since each faction has a different definition of "exotic weaponry."

***

Arieg said:

Thus I feel I've priced the Indigo at a decent point.

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So you feel that the Indigo-class Guided Missile Frigate should cost as much as a Ke-V8 "Kawarime" Fighter or a Na-S/Sh-01 Zachitnik-class Shuttle?

Come on.

***

Arieg said:

- Deleted from the selection.

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Then what are those 96 missile tubes used for?

Alright, I've gone ahead and checked the article over and the changes have been made with a few alterations, and I'll make some final notes for the record:

The ship is still cheaper than a Plumeria, but given that Wes would throw a fit of rage if someone implied Zesuaium was cheap as Nerimium, the new price is good to go. Regarding the firepower, missiles like these are applique weapons that can easily be added on to a ship at a later point in its life. That the Plumeria doesn't is simply Yamatai's decision, much like how America prefers to not use ERA on the Abrams. Regarding template though, alternate templates have been allowed multiple times in the past so long as they met the requirements. I won't insist on a radical rework given how far along this submission is, but given that this is a much more radical departure, I insist that Arieg uses a more conventional one in future submissions.

APPROVED

I'm pretty sure the alternate template isn't as bad as this being completely and utterly non-mobile friendly.

Wait a minute. For one who said "the proper procedure must be followed," @CadetNewb, there were quite a few procedures that were not followed by @Arieg or yourself. For instance:

• Submission Rules
  • General Rules
    • 1E: This submission does not use the proper template.
    • 1F: This submission does not follow the Style Guide.
    • 1I: This submission does not use the Standard Product Nomenclature System.
    • 1J: This submission does not display the correct price.
    • 1K: This submission is not allowed to use Origin Industries equipment.
      • 1KIII: This is because the Faction Manager of Origin Industries never posted his approval of the submission in this thread.
    • 3: The submitter, Arieg, failed to add the Standard Product Nomenclature System despite being told to do so by the submission's reviewer - then lied about it by saying that it had been "fixed," as the submission article shows no mention of the proper nomenclature.
    • 4a: The reviewer, CadetNewb, justified this submission's (in my personal opinion) overpowered and questionable offensive capabilities by pointing to a starship of a different faction.
    • 8: A civilian starship was not included with this submission, despite the latter counting as a warship under the Military Buildup Limitations.
  • Review Policy
    • 1: The Checklist was not requested by the submitter or included by the reviewer.
• Style Guide
  • General Principles
    • 3: This submission does not adhere to the common format and does not look like other starship articles.
  • Article Titles And Section Headings
    • 4: This submission does not follow the proper format for the titles of articles describing starship classes.

With the above and the potential conflict of interest - due to CadetNewb stating that one of his plots (the Crinson Corsairs) was supposed to make use of this submission - in mind, I would like to request that @Wes review this submission in order to make sure that it does not have any overpowered and/or questionable abilities, especially in terms of its offensive capabilities.

* * * * * * *

CadetNewb said:

...but given that Wes would throw a fit of rage if someone implied Zesuaium was cheap as Nerimium...

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Seeing as how Nerimium and Zesuaium have the same value listed for the Cost field ("Expensive" and "[Expensive]," respectively), I'm afraid your argument just doesn't hold any weight.

CadetNewb said:

Regarding the firepower, missiles like these are applique weapons that can easily be added on to a ship at a later point in its life. That the Plumeria doesn't is simply Yamatai's decision, much like how America prefers to not use ERA on the Abrams.

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As stated above, that is not a valid argument due to the fact that the Plumeria is a Yamataian starship, thereby rendering it unusable in attempts to justify this submission's overpowered and questionable (in my personal opinion) offensive capabilities. Besides, why should every other faction in the setting have to add hundreds of missiles to their starships in order to keep up with this submission's blatantly (in my personal opinion) overpowered and questionable amount of firepower?

* * * * * * *

EDIT: For reference, Wes, this submission - in addition to its considerable energy armament of 1 Tier 12 Gauss Impelled Positron Cannon, 6 Tier 10 15cm Type-39 Rapid Fire Anti-Particle Cannons, and 3 Tier 6 2.5cm Type-39 Rapid Cycle Plasma Cannons - can simultaneously launch 1,296 Tier 10 GIM-1 'Talon' Medium Range Guided Missiles, 756 Tier 11 GIM-2 'Toland' Long Range Guided Missiles, and 4 Tier 12 OI-Z1b Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles. If that amount of firepower isn't considered to be overpowered for any starship in this setting (especially one the size and Tier - 11 - of a Plumeria!), then I honestly don't know what would be considered overpowered.

I've already addressed the template and my reasoning behind my decision in the previous post Frost. As for the nomenclature, I suspect you're no longer reading the article; it's right under the cost of the ship, which I also discussed with Arieg and approved. As for Origin Industries, my approval was quite implicit given the fact I haven't raised any issue as its manager. Meanwhile, the military buildup limitations were meant for nations, not corporations - the moment ONI and Oshima turns into a nation (if they ever do), they'll be subject to that rule. As for the checklist, it's highly recommended, but not mandatory, since an NTSE Mod can just overturn the approval within three months if it doesn't have it.

Honestly? I'd rather not do the extra work, and I don't believe this article has anything worthy of that.

Now, I know you're not the most tech savvy, but Zesuaium and Nerimium don't compare; zesu is immune to anything below plasma, and is resistant to even that. Plus, it doesn't bend or warp at all. Yamatai has to practically give space-time a wedgie to make the stuff. As for DR though, missiles are actually a rather crummy weapon, and are only really good in close quarters. At longer ranges, they can be outrun or just plain shot down. And again, they're an applique weapon; adding them is very easy, and doesn't require any major modification of the hull. Even then, ships are perfectly viable without them.

This is getting...just wow if I actually told you guys what I think of this I would probably get moderated. You two are just so full of it right now. There are things that need to be done with this article, and you're both too busy trying to prove something to actually touch on the important points. These are the actual concerns that should be being discussed with this article.

• Has it's appearance on mobile pages changed? Because what Raz showed is just horrible. It's one thing if it ends up like that and you don't know, but if something like that is presented to the submitter, it should NOT be ignored. (The biggest problem is the positioning and size of the table, so that's not a major issue that would take huge amounts of time to fix)
  
• Next the number of missiles he has is absolutely irrelevant honestly. If you count the amount of potential DR 'stored' within a ship in the form of bullets and batteries and torpedoes, it's stupid high. What matters is how many individual 'weapons' he has. 5k missiles is nothing if you can only fire 10 at a time. So what needs to be discussed is the fire rate and salvo size. This was mentioned the last time this ship was submitted but it looks like that data found it's way off the page again. (If that VSL pod stuff is it you need to write it out more clearly so people can see at a glance the firing capacity of the ship. Guns have RPM and magazine size, missile tubes should too)

Those are reasons this article should not be going through approval yet, and I really think those problems should be solved first. Things like how much it cost compared to a Plumeria is irrelevant. For one the Plumeria was priced at a different time, it's also a piece of military tech. I also don't see aether on the Indigo..you know, something really expensive. It might be there and I just missed it, but it definitely isn't rocking the Aether shock array for a main cannon.