[Poll/Discussion] Minimum Age of Access

[Legix]

I said to raise it because all of my plots are 18+.

That's it, really.

 

[Reynolds]

My vote is for about 30 or so.

 

[ArsenicJohn]

That's a bit excessive I think.. Unless that was sarcasm

 

[Doshii Jun]

My vote is for about 30 or so.

Rey too real for roleplay. The realest.

 

[Arbitrated]

• When do people join their first RP site?

• What age is that usually?

• What age was that for most of you guys (SARP members)?

• What is the minimum age on similar RP sites?

• Are we losing members to them because they will take people we won't?

In order, according to my experiences:

-It seems that typically teenagers or young adults are likely to attempt roleplaying for the first time. This could be like SARP, or it could be more like D&D.

-One group I was a part of (this was my first group to RP with ever, many of them have come to SARP) was approximately the same age as I. I was, actually, one of the oldest members of the group, with quite a few people around the 16 year age and a couple approximately 17 years, and at least one was older than twenty.
A second group I had joined later has an average age of 15, with some people being 14 or 13 years old when I joined. There is a third public discord server with a large amount of people seeming to span the age from about 14 to probably around 20.

-My first roleplay was officially about eleven months ago. I was 17 years old.

-The first RP site took place on a game forum, the minimum access age being 13 years. The public discord RP has no special restrictions other than having an account, so likely 13 years as well. The second group didn't seem to have any restrictions that I can remember, but it was also very small.

-It is not impossible to think this. Why would you bother trying to roleplay on site "X" when you're already an established member of site "Y", as well as liking the community?

We can't assume those parents will be reasonable about their 15-year-old seeing even the barest hint of 18+ content. I'm not talking just about content behind the age wall, but content you or I might think doesn't rate going behind said wall.

I mean same-sex relationships, innuendo, casual violence, even philosophical discussion. IC or OOC.

I will agree that the attitude regarding differentiating "mature" versus "SFW" content on the site is somewhat lacking. I myself have been quite like this as well, and I would not be opposed to cleaning that up and moving it to the proper place.
However, if a parent were to be as opposed to topics such as homosexual relationships, "philosophical discussions", and casual violence, I doubt that being fifteen versus sixteen, versus being seventeen or possibly even eighteen, would be much of a factor here.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I will agree that the attitude regarding differentiating "mature" versus "SFW" content on the site is somewhat lacking. I myself have been quite like this as well, and I would not be opposed to cleaning that up and moving it to the proper place.

I respect the attitude, but my point was that we can't be so firm on what is really considered 18+ other than clearly sexual content. I don't think we can "clean" that up so easily, especially OOC. We're adults and we talk like it. Asking ourselves to not do so is not only unrealistic, it isn't any fun.

However, if a parent were to be as opposed to topics such as homosexual relationships, "philosophical discussions", and casual violence, I doubt that being fifteen versus sixteen, versus being seventeen or possibly even eighteen, would be much of a factor here.

Don't know about you, but my parents let me have a much looser leash as a junior in high school than they did when I was a freshman. I could date, go out with friends later into the night, so on. The big thing (looking back) was that I was allowed to access the internet on my own.

That was the late '90s, so times aren't the same. But parents also are monitoring internet use a lot more. They will see us and might not stop to ask questions. An irate email to Wes about his site from a 15-year-old's parent might be an eyebrow-raise and a frown from a 17-year-old's parent.

We can't be sure what sets them off. Even with the "no politics" chat rule, we still talk about all kinds of things. We also yell at each other. Sometimes we have IRL things that are heavy. And so on.

The player maybe handles it just fine. But I have covered enough school boards to not trust parents to be reasonable. I think that if there is a (so far unproven) loss of younger players, it is worth not having the risk. And we likely will make up for it or get those players later.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Additional tack-on that comes to mind: the IRC proved to be a nightmare for this policy. Discord has the exact same issue. That's no fault of Ame and crew; it's simply how it is. Parents might see their kid chatting, see the Hinomaru or the name SARP, and then kaboom goes the irate letter or lawsuit.

Doesn't matter that Wes has nothing to do with it. He's the only target there is.

 

[Ametheliana]

I think someone was talking in a joking sense about something a little bit too mature for the audience on discord and I reminded everyone it's not 18+ and shut that line of thinking down right then and there. The discord server isn't even 16+. I'm probably one of the worst people on the server, but I still keep cussing to a minimum and lewdity down there, too. It never raises above a 2/10. Please don't drag something that is good and helpful under the bus.

Doshii made a good point, we are adults. Adults can remind themselves that there is a time and a place for intense sexuality. Since he's so adamant that the issue is sexuality in his opposition, need I remind you that you can have good clean fun without overly sexualizing yourself, the situation, things, etc?

I'd like to see this place become more family-friendly and enjoyable for all ages and I'm questioning why, myself.

I like lewd stuff, but I like Star Army having an active and health user base much much more.

I also see Reynolds' point : P I'm truly on both sides of the fence, but I think we're selling ourselves short if we say we can't have fun if we can't be lewd.

 

[Talarn]

*healthy @Ametheliana

I agree with all points made. There are good things in having an active player-base, something that can come to fruition if we lower the age to 15 instead of 16, 17, or 18. We risk limiting ourselves with the age for the simple fact most role-players start young. I started the way AJ did so I don't have to go off on a story.

I'm on both sides, same as Ame.

I think that lewdness should be kept to a sensible minimum but not completely abolished?
After all fun is what we make it, not the amount of conquests we add to the marks around our belt.
-------------------------------------------
On another note, with the lowered age limit we're inviting a bunch of unknown variables into the dynamic that is the Star Army Role-Play. As Ame said previously, I also know a lot of people that are below the current age limit and know for a fact they'd be a healthy addition to the website. Personal connections and interactions aside, we also have to note that the world has millions of people in it and knowing just a few dozen doesn't account for the rest.

A 15 year old has the same opportunity to fuck up as an 18 year old.
So age in the end doesn't have a factor, it's the person and the mental development they've acquired over the years and how mature they can be.

 

[Doshii Jun]

I think someone was talking in a joking sense about something a little bit too mature for the audience on discord and I reminded everyone it's not 18+ and shut that line of thinking down right then and there. The discord server isn't even 16+. I'm probably one of the worst people on the server, but I still keep cussing to a minimum and lewdity down there, too. It never raises above a 2/10. Please don't drag something that is good and helpful under the bus.

I'm on that server. I read it. No one is perfect, and policing it all the time isn't possible, even with your schedule and level of dedication.

I'm not dragging it under the bus; I'm bringing up the very real point that it presents the same issue as the IRC did. Again, not your fault. You weren't here for the bad days of the IRC.

Also, you've not being fair to what I said. Sex is the content I think we're good about keeping behind the wall. I'm not worried there. As I said, it's the content we don't consider 18+ that we can't be sure about. It could be casual, as in discord OR the chat box. It could be a discussion in RP or OOC. It could be a relationship with same-sex partners.

It isn't just about being lewd. I was more encompassing with what I said than just ERP, which again, I think isn't as big an issue.

Also, I apologize for the edited out line. That was an uncalled-for attack made in anger about being mischaracterized. Sorry, Ame.

 

[Ametheliana]

I thought we were keeping things civil?

This is part of the reason I've started to lean towards a lower age. With younger people present we may censor out our negative traits we don't want spreading to younger generations.

 

[Doshii Jun]

It hasn't done so yet. Nor is that a convincing argument, as what you and I see as "negative" won't match up.

Who gets to be the post police on that, even if we did do it? That's not a reasonable expectation for anyone.

 

[Talarn]

This has turned into something personal between the two of you.
The discussion hasn't been derailed yet but the back and forth that's just started here needs to stop. If there's no more constructive criticism, points, arguments against or for then it's time to just let Wes see the results of this poll; gather up what we've said and have him make a decision.

 

[Fred]

+1 what Talarn said.

I don't even see why this has to even be a discussion.

You just state your point-of-view and put in your vote. No need to sway others, no need to make your idea better than theirs. No one is lesser for having a different outlook. No one should need to be right. That's not what preference is.

Then Wes gathers the input and does whichever he wants with it. Done.

 

[raz]

my point was that we can't be so firm on what is really considered 18+ other than clearly sexual content.

Explicitly sexual C-tier smutfics are the only things that are actually 18+ around here. Those have never been SARP's main draw or focus. Cool sci-fi is.

Everything else is tacked on the category in a really flimsy way; most violent or foul language content here would rate a PG-13 if it were a movie and very rarely R (a 17+ rating rather than 18+). And it's frankly up to parents to police what their children view on the internet in the same way as they do TV or film. Obey the site rules and our younger members—be they 15 or 16—shouldn't be exposed to any bad influences.

There's more to worry about with raising the age of entry (loss of players, strength and survival of the community) than there is with lowering it to 15.

 

[Arbitrated]

It could be casual, as in discord OR the chat box. It could be a discussion in RP or OOC. It could be a relationship with same-sex partners.

Yes, this is an unfortunate potential side effect. Parents will continue to be parents, and engagin in online interactions will always be a risk. And while your personal experience with parent-based constraints showed a significant loosening at least during high school, my personal loosening of online interactions had come around during the end of middle school-approximately the age of 14.

With younger people present we may censor out our negative traits we don't want spreading to younger generations.

Hm. I did not think of that initially but yes, that is true. It would indeed be a great incentive to reduce toxicity and similar behavior on the website.

what you and I see as "negative" won't match up.

This is indeed why the thread is designed to double as discussion rather than simply a poll; I want to hear as many voices as I can, whether they are for keeping access as it is or for a change. Knowing why an individual votes for a particular option can allow participants to think more about their choice, possibly even changing at a later time.

You just state your point-of-view and put in your vote. No need to sway others, no need to make your idea better than theirs. No one is lesser for having a different outlook. No one should need to be right. That's not what preference is.

I do like this here. Simply put, you shouldn't try to change a person's choice, but instead explain a possible counter-argument to what has been said. We don't need to convert everybody to a specific mindset, but when a debate happens sometimes people can be more informed-preferably in an unbiased way. More informed participants means they may make a choice that is more beneficial to the community, no matter what they choose or where their choice is based.

Most violent or foul language content here would rate a PG-13 if it were a movie and very rarely R (a 17+ rating rather than 18+). And it's frankly up to parents to police what their children view on the internet in the same way as they do TV or film. Obey the site rules and our younger members—be they 15 or 16—shouldn't be exposed to any bad influences.

Agreed.

 

[Wes]

I guess my main worry is that an age limit of 15 or 16 is meaningless in legal terms. On the internet, there's only two ages that really matter from a legal standpoint. COPPA's 13+ for user privacy and 18+ for porn and entering into contracts. That's why 99% of sites have one of those two age limits.

 

[Ira]

I we are 18 plus only it would send the wrong message

 

[Ametheliana]

Thanks ArblesMarbles for being such a good moderator of this discussion.

I suppose I really want younger people to join and enjoy themselves as much as I've enjoyed myself here. I'm going to vote for younger limits, though I said I wouldn't. I think it would do the forums a heck of a lot of good after reading and being a part of the discussion about it.

 

[ArsenicJohn]

I am going to change my vote to keep it at 16, since I really don't have a problem with the way things are.