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Proposed Setting Revisions for 2011

Wes

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I would like to make the following site-wide changes, which would take place in 2011.

- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)
- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)
- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily
- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry
- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?
- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat
- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared
- Create explicit PVP rules

I would like your opinions and questions.

Wes said:
I'm glad to see so many opinions and participation from everyone but I'm having trouble getting a clear consensus so I would ask everyone to please vote here:

Survey on Proposed Changes

Form results will be tallied up on Tuesday evening.
 
The only one of those I have any problem with is the maximum combat range, just because of how much that could affect fighting. It seems a bit too limited, though I do agree that we need to set limits of some sort. Maybe expand it out to somewhere around 3-4 light seconds?
 
Mmm. This looks interesting.

- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)
I think the best way to handle this is simply to employ certain power constraints where ships having their FTL drives active imply huge combat-performance drawbacks.

Merging bubbles might be a way to 'exceed' the mass the FTL drive is prepared to propel, perhaps providing an alternative way for a pursuing vessel to force another ship out of FTL aside from interdiction.

In my experience, sublight maneuvers are more than sufficient to fulfill the intended aim of combat FTL maneuvers during a fight. 0.3c is 100 000kps after all, which is 1/4th of the distance between Earth and its Moon - that's a lot of space for tiny warships.

- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)
As much as I wish that, according to the setting, this is premature. Too many ships are currently outfitted with a combination of both.

I think the first thing which should be done first is disassociate CDD propulsion from CFS and make CFS a purely defensive system involving a ship's defensive shielding, as we discussed earlier this year.

Eventually, once new technology combining the benefits of CDD and fold come up, ship designs are likely to gravitate toward them naturally with new designs and refits.

- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily
Interdiction right now is important for giving delay-to-hit to FTL weapons like torpedoes, prevents transposition-style effect and interdicts the use of FTL travel to escape said zone or to prevent crossing through.

Some of those remain important traits that this setting does not appear prepare to transition from until viable alternatives can be provided.

- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry
Beam go at lightspeed. Don't touch them.

Relativistic speed allow railguns to compete with beams to a certain degree, but any such weapon striking a target at 0.6c implies certain catastrophic consequences such as blowing up planets.

Missiles currently have something of an important role due to being ammo based weapon that deliver hefty chunks of damage with more accuracy. As long as there was some observable delay to impact to allow reactions, I thought that was fine.

If there are to be changes in the above weapons, it'll likely need to be tied with preferred engagement ranges. Seeing as this involves other matters like ship speed while fighting, how ships escape combat and such... big changes on this front are probably premature and any tweaks should be applied gradually.

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?
That's a GM's job, isn't it? I think explaining the process of aiming, firing and ensuring good accuracy along with methods to evade would allow people to make informed choices, but I wouldn't concreticize this further.

- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat.
It's often a common sense element seeing how you want to keep your delays-to-impact as short as possible to ensure maximum accuracy on a moving target. It's, however, a constrictive restriction.

A non-moving ship could be easily hit out 15 light seconds away if it doesn't move at all. Some missiles have greater speeds to cross through longer distances/keep delay-to-impacts short to limit reaction times due to their virtue as ammunition-based weapons. Railgun-style weaponry could be fired from much further away to strike an an immobile target such as an installation.

Like I said, it's common sense to keep the engagement range short, but artificially restricting it based on meta-rules feels somewhat wrong.

In-Universe Motivations need to be given to encourage closer encounter ranges.

- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared
I think a base thruster speed with measurements in kps and not in fractions of c would be a good touch. I know in Miharu mission 5 that when your engagement range are close and that you have ships in knife-fights, going at a fraction of c is kind of silly.

However, I'm not sure SARP is prepared for this acceleration thing, mainly because inertialess technology is so common. Ships can presently excuse their near-instant acceleration thanks to that... and it hasn't worked out badly in our roleplay.

I'd start by encouraging the use of sheer thruster power over lightspeed decimal fractions first, implying that sublight maneuvers should be greater resource commitment (for example: the tactical FTL jump I've used in my plot could very well be reconcepted as a tactical STL jump to the same effect).

Once thruster-based propulsion and maneuvering is better established in SARP, then it may be worth it to factor in acceleration.

- Create explicit PVP rules
I don't think this community is capable of widely supporting PvP confrontations without egos coming on the line. People simply don't have that sort of maturity or dispassionism.
 
- Create explicit PVP rules

In the past when PvP has failed it has been because of OOC events like the deletion of posts that caused Jess to leave the site. There have also been things like the last speed update when the Nep GMs went ahead and complied with the new rules then all the Yamatai ships were done next and given higher speed ratings.

This has led directly to things like the Players Rights rules and other policy changes on the site to better handle requests/complaints ect. I think these rules are a good idea and I would like to see more.

The current problem with PvP, however, is exactly what Fred is pointing out: immature players. In the past I’ve always been careful to select players who could handle themselves (Derran, Jess, British Tom, Wanderer, ect) and it worked well. The Draconian war was one of the most fun things on the site that I can remember because Derran made great, credible bad guys and would play them with a level of maturity that allowed them to interact with other factions.

Generally the rules I’ve been using for PvP in the past are
1: Write down all the equipment you have available to you somewhere that both players can see it.
2: If you don’t say it happened it didn’t happen, so if you forget to say you turned on your interdiction field or your shields then your ship did not raise shields.
3: Follow site rules (See: anti-ftl field page, speed rules, ect)

It is also generally assumed that your weapon systems are good enough to always hit a stationary target. In space there is nothing to throw off your aim, no atmosphere or earth rotation to account for, so you’ll always hit unless your opponent does something to avoid it. This Segways nicely into:

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?
- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

So you are always going to hit unless your opponent moves. This makes sense after all we can launch a probe from earth and trick shot it around 9 planets with today’s technology. This naturally limits combat ranges to how fast a ship can react. A laser can cross a light second in one second. It takes a human a quarter second to react to anything and if we had acceleration values for ships we could do a quick calculation to figure out if the ship would be able to move out of the way in time. No arbitrary accuracy values or dice rolls needed.

Or basically, we can limit engagement range based on what the ships can actually do already. Rather than create an arbitrary range cap we can just fix the other rules to create the kind of setting we want.

Which leads nicely to:

I don’t think players realize what a huge change this will be if done right. The way I see it there are two options:

Put the Army in StarArmy

-Remove CDDs and FTL weapons
-Change to acceleration instead of top speed and set the value at something that would require hours-days to get from planet to planet in system.
-Nerf weapons hardcore so starships can’t gib planets, removal of near light speed rail guns, massive anti-matter bombs, starship shields that can survive within a star, ect, but keep the DR system in place so ships can take less damage before being destroyed.

Result: With interdiction, hyperspace, and slow speeds starships now have to enter a system and move towards a planet over the course of hours and generally have to follow a set course so they can drop stuff into orbit without destroying the payload. Because other ships move slowly and there is a lot of space to cover it will be difficult to make an interception. This means you can still have your stealth on planet missions but much more importantly anti-orbit lasers and missiles become survivable, cities can be protected with shields reasonably, and units on the ground with anti-orbit weapons become a huge threat to starships.

Now having space dominance doesn’t mean you can destroy a planet at will, nor does it mean you have free reign to lob destruction down on a planet because the planet can easily field more weapons than your small ship. To support ground forces starships would have to stay at extreme distance where they can avoid laser and missile fire. Ground forces become necessary and far more important than starships if you want to attack a planet.


The other option would be

Adjust the interdiction system.

Either make CDD and teleportation harder to use in an interdiction field, make them far less effective in interdiction, or most simply: Require a larger ship vs ship ratio to negate interdiction. If interdiction becomes far more powerful than anti-interdiction then FTL combat, FTL weapons, and FTL anything becomes far more difficult to use.

There is also the option of adding an interdiction and anti-interdiction strength stat similar to the DR system to interdiction systems/ships. Personally I think this would be the best way to make the interdiction rules conform to how people would think they work (larger system are more powerful, more systems are more powerful, ect)

Any of these effectively accomplish the same thing that you are aiming for.
 
I have a Suggestion on how to redo Interdiction


We don't have to remove it completely.What we can do, however, is change the rules so that the only things capable of mounting an interdiction device are Star Forts and specialized ships that how minimal combat power.
 
Wes said:
- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)

I think Fred put things into a very interesting light.

Fred said:
I think the best way to handle this is simply to employ certain power constraints where ships having their FTL drives active imply huge combat-performance drawbacks.

Merging bubbles might be a way to 'exceed' the mass the FTL drive is prepared to propel, perhaps providing an alternative way for a pursuing vessel to force another ship out of FTL aside from interdiction.

In my experience, sublight maneuvers are more than sufficient to fulfill the intended aim of combat FTL maneuvers during a fight. 0.3c is 100 000kps after all, which is 1/4th of the distance between Earth and its Moon - that's a lot of space for tiny warships.

Personally, all I have seen FTL used for in combat is a quick dodge maneuver (CDD/CFS is infamous for this). I have never read an event where vessels are actively going over 1c and firing their weapons at each other. Then again, I have a hard time reading other plots I'm not in.

However, Uso also brought up something that caught my eye.

Uso said:
Put the Army in StarArmy

-Remove CDDs and FTL weapons
-Change to acceleration instead of top speed and set the value at something that would require hours-days to get from planet to planet in system.
-Nerf weapons hardcore so starships can’t gib planets, removal of near light speed rail guns, massive anti-matter bombs, starship shields that can survive within a star, ect, but keep the DR system in place so ships can take less damage before being destroyed.

Result: With interdiction, hyperspace, and slow speeds starships now have to enter a system and move towards a planet over the course of hours and generally have to follow a set course so they can drop stuff into orbit without destroying the payload. Because other ships move slowly and there is a lot of space to cover it will be difficult to make an interception. This means you can still have your stealth on planet missions but much more importantly anti-orbit lasers and missiles become survivable, cities can be protected with shields reasonably, and units on the ground with anti-orbit weapons become a huge threat to starships.

Now having space dominance doesn’t mean you can destroy a planet at will, nor does it mean you have free reign to lob destruction down on a planet because the planet can easily field more weapons than your small ship. To support ground forces starships would have to stay at extreme distance where they can avoid laser and missile fire. Ground forces become necessary and far more important than starships if you want to attack a planet.

This is close to how the Abwehrans are over all with a few exceptions:


  • - CDD is used as either a slow charge system used to propel a ship from point A to point B in a relatively quick manner or as a in-system interception system.
    - The only Railgun in use with the capacity to damage a planet is the 600mm at a muzzle velocity of .6c. However, certain laws and regulations within the ASE prevents the usage of this weapon upon inhabitable worlds.

Wes said:
- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

Personally, I believe we don't have to completely eliminate the CDD. Instead, we can use it like an interplanetary interception drive. In case of an invasion, a defensive force can quickly intercept the enemy without having to wait hours/days to meet them.

Of course, this can easily be done in STL due to the defensive force being further in system, which allows for better interceptions anyway.

I also believe that if we do this, Fold should be limited by a System's Gravity Well. This allows for Uso's "Put the Army in Star Army" method of slow travel between planets. But instead of putting the Fold cut off point at the immediate edge of a solar system, we can make it so that small stars have smaller Fold Limits while large stars have greater Fold Limits. This makes invasion of a populated system a bit more exciting based upon the system in question.

Wes said:
- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily

Not really necessary if we remove CDD, since then everyone is going STL. The only other option for Anti-FTL would be for pulling ships out of hyperspace. Though Fred's earlier idea in the "No FTL Combat" section is quite a nice option.

Wes said:
- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry
- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?
- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

I combined all of these together because they all affect each other. First off, a maximum engagement range of 1 light-second makes the usage of non-FTL weaponry much more likely...though laser-based weapons will probably start to become the norm for the short time period between firing and striking a target.

Personally, I'd prefer an engagement range around 10 light seconds maximum, but that's only preference.

If we merely just slow down FTL weaponry (like torpedoes), that still would affect our engagement range by enlarging it. FTL weaponry would just be silly at ranges in any increments below light-minutes RP-wise.

Wes said:
- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared

While I have been keeping the STL velocities due to the rules, I have already been adding accelerations to all my designs. This is normally using the method of maximum velocity in 5 minutes for strike craft and maximum velocity in 60 minutes for warships.

This could be changed very easily though, but if we convert to accelerations we would have to limit those accelerations based upon mass and the power of each type of engine. This also means the removal of all instantaneous acceleration drives.

Wes said:
- Create explicit PVP rules

This is probably necessary because of everyone's desire to be the winner in combat situations. Unfortunately, I have no ideas for rules at the moment.
 
I actually find myself in agreement with a lot of what is being said in this thread so far, so I'd like to put my two cents in. Acceleration-based speeds do present many problems in their own way to the playerbase (although there will be at least ONE PERSON who will disagree and insist my argument is entire wrong), and I've been a longtime advocate of slower speed and weapon range caps that can be somewhat more easily understood by the playerbase.

Wes said:
- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble.

You know, I'm actually in support of this idea on the basis that it would only really happen if you actually decided to let someone piggyback on your hyperspace bubble. Which would mean that all FTL combat would be backstabs and probably cause a lot of havoc to the parties involved.

- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

I'm rather biased on this front simply because my faction depends almost entirely on its CDD-esque drive, and doesn't have the nicety of anti-FTL to secure tactical advantages in a scenario. I'd suggest putting charge time limitations in place to at least put a reasonable damper on CDD-like drives, similar to those we have for Hyperspace Fold.

But since this is a dialogue for another time, I'll bring it up later somewhere else.

- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily

I'd probably be more okay with having to give my CDD-like FTL up if this was going to happen, IF we'd develop new rules and ranges that would fit the new tech paradigm we seem to be working towards with these changes to the setting. Specialized interdiction devices with different ranges and various types instead of a single blanket effect that covered vast distances would be a vast improvement.

- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry

My faction only has a single piece of FTL weaponry, which I am willing to redesign if other, similar tech pieces are receiving their own nerfs.

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?

Things like ECM and stealth (in spaaaaaace) should impose penalties to hit, for sure, and being on the move should reduce the efficiency of most weaponry, but I'm of the opinion that this should be a case of GM fiat and common sense than of hard rules with dice rolls or percentile accuracy penalties. It might become too much of a hassle for players and the majority of our GMs.

- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

As much as I like this idea, I still have to say that something like this should remain a reasonable guideline. Having a solid theoretical ceiling of 1 light second is a pretty good idea, as long as the majority of weapons are trimmed to fit within the speed, but we shouldn't impose arbitrary rules that only constrict the flow of the RP.

- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared

My proposal of a top speed in the thousands of m/s (with 1000 m/s as being a reasonable benchmark number for light, fast moving vessels using conventional reaction drives) and an accompanying acceleration interval has been unpopular before, because it wouldn't make sense in the scope of things like FTL missiles and our relativistic railguns. If the effectiveness (projectile velocity, actual speed) are reduced though, it might actually begin to make a bit more sense and fit the paradigm a bit better.

I'll have a more clear-cut proposal with some guideline numbers later this week.

- Create explicit PVP rules

I've been a longtime fan of GM fiat and drama power in PVP scenarios, and generally prefer PVP scenarios being predetermined by the people involved than direct clashes of ego. In my years of experience reading player versus player combat in play-by-post RPGs, it rarely turns out to be anything other than a really bad slogfest ridden with metagaming and OOC bickering.

That said, if you HAD to have concrete rules for PVP, why not use whatever rules would be put up for the Star Army RPG? I've been toying around with a system based on d10's and percentile dice for a while that would work fairly well in this scenario, although I'd require a lot of moderation to be implemented on the site, where dice rolls can't exactly be supervised.
 
Here is my quick off the cuff feelings about these items.

- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)
Not a problem for me, I've never used it in my plots. Trying to hit something at FTL speeds, all the enemy has to do is induce a random fractional velocity variation and you could never hit it.

- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)
So you propose keeping the current outrageously fast method and get rid of the slower. Don't like it, but I've said that before about the speeds.

- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily
Without some sort of Anti-FTL technology, it becomes effectively impossible to create and maintain a reasonable defensive posture. An enemy could bring their fleet right into your system bypassing any outer defenses. Which means the only defense is to have lots more ships. I thought we were trying to reduce the number of ships not give a reason for escalation. Don't like it.

- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry
Since I don't like FTL nor use FTL combat, No a problem.

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?
I agree with the mind set that the GM should handle this taking into account systems being used, how creatively they are being used, and the same for maneuvering by the crew. Any kind of dice system would have to have lots of modifiers to allow for those factors, and then everyone would have the best etc... Common Sense and GM control please.


- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

I like the idea of scaling down, is 1 light-second the ideal value, don't know, but I also think that certain weapons should have a degradation by range. I included that in some of my Hidden Sun Clan tech. eg:
Damage:
* 3 SDR out to 372,564 miles
* 2 SDR out to 745,128 miles
* 1 SDR out to 1,117,692 miles

I'm okay with the proposal but would want to see more discussion on how this will be implemented.


- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared
Ok, this topic keeps coming up over and over and over. So I just have this to say, if we are going to go to something like this, then depending on the ship there would have to be multiple acceleration values. Sorry but its true. Example: Kai's soon to be approved Porter-Class Short Haul Cargo Transport
would need an acceleration for not loaded with a SSCC and with. I won't even discuss the concept of differing weight of the SSCC.
And the same holds true for other ships. Depending on how large their cargo capacity is, it could have a direct affect on its acceleration loaded vs unloaded. Which from a RP perspective a) makes sense, and b) offers RP potential, enemy is closing because they have a slightly faster acceleration. The crew of intrepid adventurers decide to jettison half their cargo to eke out more speed, and not to mention create an obstacle that the enemy either has to evade or blast.

This idea has merit but needs to be written up clearly. Like how to determine a reasonable Rate of Acceleration and not have everything automatically maxed out.


- Create explicit PVP rules
I don't do PVP, and ultimately in my opinion whatever rules we impose should apply here too.
 
Wes said:
- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only

To be honest Wes I was hoping to make new special type of FTL for the Azoreans, primarily because I wouldn't want Azorean to have to be 100% dependent on another factions FTL. However, to allow part of the drive system to work conceptually it would need to be externalized either use CFS or wormholes to basically transports supercold bosonic matter around inside or outside the ship. Infact other than doing this CFS doesn't propel ship at all... it just well organizes things for lack of a better term.. This would allow the particle accelerators to accelerate the compressed matter threw multiple iterations... up to a threshold energy where they are then sent into a reactor like combustion chamber and well explode actually kind like a supernova ^^;; . The exhaust propels the ship with so much force that with in the simplest hyper drive it tear a gaint whole in hyperspace that an moored and tiered fleet can pass through.

So, honestly I kind of would like to still be able to use CFS in a drive system. Plus I though CDD/CFS was supposed to be slower?

Of course I been kind of busy so I haven't really had a chance to write up some of these articles >>;


Wes said:
- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?

Umm... actually.... ironically Wes I was thinking something along the same lines XD....
.... As I mentioned on CadetNewb, I was thinking that since the Azorean didn't have special FTL weapons, so it presents a challenge for us ICly. I didn't see it as a challenge to overcome. The main way I thought overcome it would be to create weapons that reduce the accuracy of missiles regardless of sensor effectiveness.

In particular I was hoping to make a shield and a couple of cloaking that reduces the accuracy by either:
  • A shield version of Dazzling Camouflage. It cloaks things not by making thing invisible but uncertain so you cannot tell one ship from a group from another and which part is the front, back, top, bottom. The accuracy mechanic I was planning on suggesting was basically roll a 12-sided die to see which ship got hit if any at all and then use the random starship damage generator to decide which part of the ship get hit
  • Chafts that would create a small smokescreen that reduces the accuracy of missles comming toward it. Their are actually many different designs I was considering. The first on was something that actually jammed the radar or made more noise that actually ships cloaking the actually EM or Gravitic radiation from other ships. Another version was something that was highly reflective and magnetic, so it created a sense of asteriods or ground clutter that may confuse sensor system from pint pointing particular targets. As I game mechanic I was thinking something like 1/6 - 1/4 reduced accuracy. (which would mean rolling a die)
  • Decoy Drones. Basically these would be drones that from far away would fool sensors into think their were more ships then their where...
  • Disruption Lasers and sonic weapons... well I go more into this later but the concept is actual throwing ones voice or a recording of a familiar voice by using pulsed lasers. If applied right they might create a sense of confusion because they could project sounds or order onto the enemy. It kind of like a combat ventriloquism.
*Depending on a fleet size, the empty slots would stand for misses.

This were of course more ideas for the Azorean weapons. I don't mind of you guys want to use the drones, chaft, or annoying disruptive laser idea but please don't steal shield idea ><;;
 
- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)

I can't entirely agree with this, because FTL in combat provides an extra degree of creativity within what would otherwise be a rather bland exchange of weapons fire. Though, regulation on what can be done in FTL combat would be nice. (Such as no FTL beams.)

- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

I can't agree with this because not all ships actually have fold drives, and fold drives make FTL entirely too easy due to the sheer velocity involved. CDD/CFS provides a nice middle-ground for patrol and cruising purposes. Even if CDD/CFS is phased out, I would like to keep the Subspace Wave Drive which the Lorath use.

- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily
I like this in part. Interdiction field tomfoolery is a bit much, and in a lot of cases one of the parties involved has some sort of amazing trump card against such systems (Anti-anti-FTL, or having a ship that would go 7,500c even with interdiction in place.). Though, I do think that things such as anti-FTL warheads on weapons would still be ideal to keep, since a key task would be to keep ships from actually weaseling away.

- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry

We've already butchered torpedoes to where they're practically useless at long range, and most beam and non-torpedo solid munitions are already STL.

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?

Over complicates what is already considered a cluster-%^&$. Misses and hits are something for either dice, or GMs to decide. That is the purpose for a GM in the first place.

- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

That is fine in theory, but that again caps off what people can manage to present in RP. I would recommend a maximum engagement distance of 1AU, considering that a majority of weapons already present in the setting have that cap as their maximum distance, and it would minimize the need for actually altering anything. Though, I think that placing some sort of penalty on ranges beyond one light second could be nice... though, the lead-time from attack origin to target does allow for a sizable capability of evasion.

- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared

No.
Because, no.

Seriously though, a lot of people who write for the SARP do not have a great grasp of number tomfoolery, and I feel that such a system would further discourage people from easing into the setting.

- Create explicit PVP rules

I like this notion, but I would also like for there to be an extensive community-wide input on this subject. Something that everyone can agree on and not something that is handed down as a "The boss said so, now do it" style of policy... those never go over well.
 
Here are my opinions.

Also, judging from what I saw on the IRC, the conflict that brought this on was that one side had already OOCly decided to win from the beginning, and had technology which, regardless of how it got approved, would not be passable now. Of course, the other side was so angry they didn't stop to think about possible alternatives. I think before we change the whole setting, we should investigate the odd nature of this incident and the tech involved(I dislike lasers being able to go 18000c+ in an Anti-FTL field) rather than operate on the assumption that it is a fair representation of the site-wide issue.

That said...

- No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)

I agree with this, hands down. I find no fault with this specific element. As previously stated, all one has to do is make a slight random variation in their FTL speed and boom, practically impossible to hit.

- Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

This I do not agree with. Many submissions use CDD/CFS instead of Fold and do not have both, and the starship stats would be really messed up with its removal. That and it is a core part of the setting to just axe.

- Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily

I don't think Anti-FTL should be removed, but I DO think the idea of Anti-FTL/Anti-Anti-FTL beams like on the C3 should be removed.

If Anti-FTL were to be removed from ships, it should still be an option for installations, such as making defensive Anti-FTL zones.

- Removal/update of all FTL weaponry

Not removing. The last example was an extreme one with anti-anti-FTL beams being used to propel a laser at 18,000c+, while in an anti-FTL field made by the same ship. I consider that more a failure of the tech approval process than of the rules.

I agree with making it so that some FTL weapons are more impacted by Anti-FTL fields though. FTL weapons should be a delivery system for crossing large distances. Once in the area of effect of an Anti-FTL field, you're no longer in the "long range" category.

- Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?

I don't like this rule, as most people on the site are responsible enough to govern themselves I believe. I think that only a few are irresponsible/immature enough to require this. I guess rules could be come up with for this, but only used when an admin/GM has to step in to mediate rather than concrete for the whole RP.

It's like DR -- make it an optional guideline until people start whining.

- Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

I'm torn on this one. It will serve a secondary purpose of setting an upper limit on weapons ranges, which may or may not be a good thing. Also, it means everyone has a maximum of one second to dodge beams and other 1c elements. FTL weapons slice this further. Dodging should be reasonable (no 8 second vs 0.02 second advantages, which again is a tech approval system failure), but it shouldn't be fully removed as an option.

In the end though, I think this should be another guideline, only imposed when people can't play nice.

- Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared

Since the energy needed to accelerate increases to infinity as one approaches the speed of light in the case of STL engines, the rate of acceleration decreases after a certain point. (Which I believe to be defined well here as the 0.375c / 0.4c limit) It is not possible to have a constant change in acceleration because of this, making this change impractical -- it will initially increase when first used, but will eventually fall off to 0 m/s^2. The change in acceleration of a high STL system is not constant and can't be measured in this way.

I believe that the static limits of 0.375c / 0.4c represent the effective speed of the craft once acceleration drops off. Sure, they MIGHT be able to go faster, but the degree of acceleration will have slowed considerably, and they could not hope to go faster than this defined limit in a combat situation where they may need to regularly change direction.

As a result, I feel the system we have in place is best.

- Create explicit PVP rules

Again, this is often not needed with responsible players who can conduct themselves well and fairly. It should be a guideline, only imposed by someone in authority when players simply can't play nice.
 
A lot of what is being said in here sounds fairly good. Although the 'Fold Only' thing I can't necessarily agree with. Because I've stated in the past not everyone has hyperfold or would develop it. So I think the CDD-esque systems should remain a niche' system. FTL weaponry though I'e never been overly fond of nor really have I used. So some nerfing would be nice.

EDIT: Btw Fred, your talk of merging FTL bubbles is making me want to re-watch Crest of the Stars. I applaud you sir!
 
No FTL combat (unless two ships are in the same hyperspace bubble)

I'm particularly interested in both Fred's and Exhack's proposals in regards to FTL combat. With them, we could probably create a new combat mechanic where pursuing ships try to drag down the runner. However, instead of requiring one other ship, what if it took more than one pursuer to 'drag them out' of the FTL bubble? One extra ship in the bubble slows the running ship down, another slows it down further, and so forth until it is pulled out of FTL proper.

The running ship would have to contend with being attacked from behind and being dragged down into the muck like a football player being tackled by the entire opposing team. The runner could maneuver to avoid this as well. It seems to have potential, but would need to be very well developed as to be both fun and balanced for both the runners and pursuers.

Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

I'm not entirely sure about this, as CDD and CFS are very much ingrained into SARP and help define what it is. However, I do support dissociating CDD and CFS from one another, as per Fred's suggestion. This in particular should be handled carefully and over a period of time since it is so heavily ingrained in SARP.

Removal of Anti-FTL, at least temporarily

Though at first it appeared quite appealing to do so, Nashoba has a very valid point. I cannot remember what the name of the theory was, but it was inline with what Nash said; the bigger the space, the more forces necessary to protect it all. Interdiction currently allows for us to have much smaller forces protect large ranges. Eliminating it entirely would create just as many problems, if not more, than the problems we have now.

Instead, I suggest we modify behavior of the interdiction system. First, as Five and Toshiro suggested, is that Anti-FTL should not be projected as beams. It makes things much more complex and gives us a whole new can of worms to deal with. Not only that, but I believe Anti-FTL should be limited to cumbersome facilities and specialized ships. It would create another interesting gameplay mechanic where the attackers and defenders have priority targets/objectives which need to be attacked and defended respectively.

The second proposition I have for interdiction systems is to directly alter how they influence ships. Instead of ships running into them and being pulled out of FTL, what if the Anti-FTL and gravitational sources such as planets and stars deflected ships? The gravitational fields of interdiction would make it difficult for the spatial anomaly used by the FTL drive to continue in a straight path in a stable manner. Much like providing resistance against ship movement. It would make ships pitch or yaw away instead of outright being dragged out; ships only get dragged out of FTL if they go against the 'pressure' provided by the interdiction systems. It would mean that in order to come into a system, ships have to drop into STL and approach on a normal vector, thereby helping to eliminate deep penetrations. Lines of interdiction would turn away and deflect ships and would perhaps even turn them back, which would then have to drop out of FTL and find holes in the gap or try to sneak by.

Another way of implementing this same gameplay mechanic is to simply have a navigation system update that automatically steered the ship away from fields of interdiction and gravitational pulls. It would then be up to the person in charge of the ship to pull out or investigate. If the ship runs into a solid wall/line of interdiction, the ship would turn itself around to avoid getting dragged out into STL.

It looks like a simple and robust work around so far, and would encourage ships using STL to circumvent the Anti-FTL or to close into combat ranges.

Removal/update of all FTL weaponry

I believe FTL weapons should be mostly eliminated, especially if the above suggestions become implemented. The FTL weapons themselves provide another point of complexity that we need to contend with and factor into our games. Sometimes, we forget about this, and let it slip by. As soon as someone uses the often overlooked rules, like say in a PvP, other players may find it as a gamebreaker and a flashpoint of anger.

Create rules for combat accuracy to allow for misses?

I do believe that should be up to the GM, but perhaps some guidelines should be set? On that, I am not sure, as even guidelines can quickly go askew.

However, we could try limiting the range of our weapons. In Babylon 5, even directed energy weapons such as plasma and lasers were affected by bloom; even though there was noting in space to provide resistance against them, there was also nothing keeping the energy weapons cohesive at longer ranges. Projectile weapons on the other hand, have an effectively unlimited range, but are slower to hit the target.

Perhaps we could try goofing our targeting computers a little? Not even Luke liked his and preferred to eyeball/ESP it.

I admit I am more uncertain about this topic than others.

Make 1 light-second (300,000 kilometers) the maximum engagement range for all ship combat

As mentioned by Fred, in-character/universe motivations to encourage close range combat should be given. As Uso stated, we could try limiting our ranges based on what our ships can already do, however, we should also try to modify some things to make the things more uniform, eliminating outliers.

Convert all STL speeds to acceleration in meters per second squared

This, I am uncertain with as well. It presents us with very interesting possibilities in regards to gameplay, but what of complexity? Bottom line, things need to be kept simple and easy to understand so that new players or prospective players are not discouraged from joining and participating. I will try and constructively comment later as I wrap my mind about it.

Create explicit PVP rules

Again, I believe things should be kept simple and bare bones. The idea of listing out all the assets of each contender before the match starts as a rule sounds very good, and will help to assuage any hurt feelings; it is inevitable that someone will loose and come out feeling sore, as everyone wants to win. Because of this, rules that are laid down should merely ensure the fight is fair unless both participants agree on it not being so, and that the person who looses the engagement has bitterness reduced. A third party moderator could come in handy.

Put the Army in StarArmy

-Remove CDDs and FTL weapons
-Change to acceleration instead of top speed and set the value at something that would require hours-days to get from planet to planet in system.
-Nerf weapons hardcore so starships can’t gib planets, removal of near light speed rail guns, massive anti-matter bombs, starship shields that can survive within a star, ect, but keep the DR system in place so ships can take less damage before being destroyed.

Result: With interdiction, hyperspace, and slow speeds starships now have to enter a system and move towards a planet over the course of hours and generally have to follow a set course so they can drop stuff into orbit without destroying the payload. Because other ships move slowly and there is a lot of space to cover it will be difficult to make an interception. This means you can still have your stealth on planet missions but much more importantly anti-orbit lasers and missiles become survivable, cities can be protected with shields reasonably, and units on the ground with anti-orbit weapons become a huge threat to starships.

Now having space dominance doesn’t mean you can destroy a planet at will, nor does it mean you have free reign to lob destruction down on a planet because the planet can easily field more weapons than your small ship. To support ground forces starships would have to stay at extreme distance where they can avoid laser and missile fire. Ground forces become necessary and far more important than starships if you want to attack a planet.

I absolutely agree with Uso on this matter, save for the elimination of CDD perhaps. The combined efforts of both the orbiting ships and the ground troops become more important; ground troops must eliminated anti-orbital batteries, while orbital ships must provide fire support for ground troops. The hardcore Nerf of weapons would greatly help us as well; as things are, a power level over 9000 means nothing to us. It's baby's play, and prospective players can find this outright overwhelming and incomprehensible, if not completely baffling in terms of logic.

In addition to this though, I suggest adding in a new DR tier. As things are now, it seems there is a gap between the current Armor Scale and Ship scale. We have infantry lumped into the same damage rating category as fighters, tanks and mechs/frames, which seems quite a disparity. It seems most unusual when the front glacis plate of a tank has a foot and a half or more of armor, while a PA may have only a few inches in comparison of armor OF THE SAME EXACT COMPOSITION, yet still be so very close to one another in terms of health. Compare Nepleslia's Hostile to any of our current frames. There is a very minor gap separating them.

I recommend either putting Power Armor and similar scaled devices/vehicles into their own category, perhaps calling it "Light Armor" and larger vehicles into a category of "Heavy Armor". It should be a simple renaming and slipping in of a new tier. No major changes are necessary, save for minor alterations of damage ratings. To maintain balance and an enjoyable time here, things in the "Heavy Armor" category should also have joints, treads, and so on be more vulnerable to fire from "Light Armor". Meanwhile, the "Heavy Armor" would be primarily used for fire support of "Light Armor" and be very vulnerable in closer quarters to PA and other small opponents due various factors much like tanks vs infantry today.

In addition, this same change would allow for weapons such as Rocket Launchers to actually play a bigger role. Right now, a rocket to the face does as much, or less than a shoulder mounted weapon, and a little bit more than an armor scale assault rifle. It would make anit-armor roles more important, and stress tactics and strategy more, as upright fights against tanks and frames would be more difficult. With more danger around every corner, things would get more exciting in my opinion.

After all, how many of you have had fun blowing up vehicles with a launcher or other? Here, a single rocket to the face won't even down a PA's shields, and isn't much better than an assault rifle.
 
Wes said:
Removal of CDD/CFS type FTL (make things fold-only)

Look at what Cadetnewb stated, I guess I should be more specific, I really don't care about the current way of using CDD/CFS in FTL in combat or even the speed that comes with it. What I was more worried about was still being able to have ships that might have a CDD or CFS component to there FTL Drive while not necessary being the primary component

Fred said:
As much as I wish that, according to the setting, this is premature. Too many ships are currently outfitted with a combination of both.

I think the first thing which should be done first is disassociate CDD propulsion from CFS and make CFS a purely defensive system involving a ship's defensive shielding, as we discussed earlier this year.

Eventually, once new technology combining the benefits of CDD and fold come up, ship designs are likely to gravitate toward them naturally with new designs and refits.

I am kind of in a bind here honestly, while I agree with CadetNewb that Fred point about disassociating CFS from CDD is important, I know personally about FTL that I am going to still need a type of Combined Distorted Fields (*) Shield. I talk extensive with Soresu about this an to be honestly it creating something like a CDFS is my only alternative to wormholes.

Thus, I have to disagree with Fred that the distinction should only be use for defensive purposed but can be used for other things as well, like "virtual material transportion pipes". Of course, maybe I am just completely of topic right now >>; .

(*)I use distorted here b/c rather than being some-kind of field the distorted space time, the shield itself is more distorted into very oddly wavy shape rather

_______

Actually as something similar to what Fred was suggesting, I was going to post Toshiro's proposal:
Toshiro said:
Well, maybe split CFS and CDD, and integrate fold function into the CDD?
Since I am kind of ask for the ability to still integrate something CDD-ish. I would be ok if we simply integrated the fold function into CDD, and then split CFS and CDD
 
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