Re: Fenyaro Admission to Empire

Wes, I understand the voting was over, but why should you have closed the topic when I had a valid (and I should think necessary) question? Look at it from an IC point of view: what do they have to offer, and would it even be worth it if they're demanding special treatment? I think it's backwards for them to come forward and say "We'd like to be admitted to the empire, but on these conditions." I have no negative feelings about the thing, but I just get the strong impression that a lot of the "senators" aren't looking at it from an IC point of view at all.

I have to agree. Even though I play a Fenyaro, I have to agree that the IC repercussions of the Fenyaro coming to the Empire and asking to be admitted, with conditions, is possibly not the most realistic...A country just conquered and 'claimed' by another, larger, country does not have that right. They are at the mercy of the contry that found them...If the Empire DECIDES to give them special treatment, it would be after months and months, if not years, of negotiations...

Well, despite people saying otherwise, the senate is still an OOC area of the site. There is no real IC RP going on there and it isn't even in the IC area of the site anyways so people naturally treat it as an OOC discussion.

Funny. I thought the Nepleslians have pretty much the same deal. They aren't in much better shape to negotiate with the Empire than Fenyar.

At what time were these Fenyaro "conqured?" The only landing force from the Empire were two shuttles that crashlanded and the crews were captured, but later relased.

The Fenyaro people were free at that point, but they're primarly low tech and their location would leave them open for occupiers. I made the request, so that they could recive protection from the empire while still retaining their society.

And why should the Empire want to protect the Fenyaro if they get nothing or little in return? That's the question I was asking in the Senate before it was locked. It doesn't make sense from an IC point of view.

You stake a lot on IC, despite you not actually being a player Jadg, why is that?

Why are you making this personal? I asked a question. If you must know, I used to be a player. I've been around here the longest of anyone besides Wes, I believe, and I used to RP a lot. Currently, he doesn't have anything that appeals to me. I've tried to organize some RP with him, but it hasn't worked out. I stick around hoping that'll change.

Besides, the Senate board is supposed to be IC anyway. Zack has said that it really isn't, and he's right, but I myself would like to see it stay IC.

I'm not trying to make it personal, unless you constrew it to be.

Well it hasn't really been IC sense it started, the difference then was that the senate was used so little and had such a small effect that it really didn't matter.

Things that Fenyar can/does offer to the Empire:

1. Personnel for the Imperial war machine. Their mages should prove to be nasty surprises for our enemies.

2. We can maintain listening posts in the system. Each additional planet in the Empire acts as another protective barrier surrounding Yamatai.

3. A boost in the Empire's prestige among our allies and client states.

4. If the Fenyaro government agrees, trade routes could be opened.

1. the star army manufactures personel and Fenyaro mages can't do anything in a real combat situation. They have nothing to offer in this respect.

2. Planetary control and the fenyar goverment's permission is hardly needed to maintain a post there. They have nothing to offer in this respect either.

3. A planet that the goverment has to be protected and offers nothing in return is more of a drain than a boost in prestige. They can also easaly drag the empire into their own wars if the goverment isn't careful with them. In this respect they are a liability.

4. The Fenyaro have no real technology, foods, or goods to offer Yamatai that Yamatai can't already produce. Again they have nothing to offer in this respect.

How exactly do you know the Fenyaro mages can't do anything?

Acting counteray, just to be counteray is not something likeable Uso.

1. Personnel for the Imperial war machine. Their mages should prove to be nasty surprises for our enemies.

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How do they prove to be a 'nasty' surprise when you can already completely obliterate entire star systems and enemy fleets in a fraction of a second? From an IC military standpoint, the Fenyaro magees would hardly be useful considering what else is in the arsenal.

I'd quote the rest, but Zack already covered that.

Fenyar is nothing special. It brings nothing of great worth to the empire, so stop pretending like it does. If the Yamataian leaders were thinking logically, they'd basically tell the Fenyaro to shut the hell up and bow down because if it came down to it, they'd just completely obliterate everything on the surface then terraform, clone, and be done with it. There's no reason for Yamatai to act like it has to use diplomacy here when simply taking Fenyar is assured to get them absolutely everything they want.

Apologies for possibly sticking my nose in where it might not belong but I wondered if I could perhaps contribute these thoughts.

True Fenyaro is not going to be able to contribute much at first given their tech levels and the already extremely high resource quantity of the Empire but that shouldn't be held against them. Given the current political climate of the Empire from trying to shift itself out of a completely militaristic stance to a more diplomatic one and improve its image, having a planet of obviously 'lower tech' request admission into the Empire and not being summarily pillaged would at least be one step in this direction. True its only one but every beginning usually starts small. Plus, given time and after being integrated further into the Empire several years down the track, the Fenyaro could begin making contributions to science and technology and from a completely new angle or train of thought (mind you that is speculation only). I'm not sure how much the Empress meddles in Senate affairs, but I'm sure if the current one was somehow (maybe an IC thread?) made aware of this request I think she would approve this. The less ill will towards the Empire the better I would think and again, this could contribute to creating a better' image of peaceful coexistance.

On the issue of Fenyaro magic, again I speculate, but with some Imperial study and ingenuity perhaps it could be made more effective or powerful given some time. It will take a lot longer for these things to happen if you don't have amicable relations.

I failed to do a background check on this, but upon detection of the planet, what about a resource check? If none was made, the world just might have new substances of profound impact to the Empire. If one was done and it showed nothing of real value then maybe it missed something and a few years down the line something will be found. If you just raze the planet's surface and terraform it, it might be lost. Another speculation on my part.

Alright I've speculated quite a bit here. Yes a lot of this is optimistic thinking and I'd make more points along these lines if I had the time. I would compare the acceptance of the Fenyaro into the Empire as a sort of investment. The Empire invests a certain amount of time and resources into a people and hopes to come out ahead several years down the line. I know that sounds a little on the uncaring side (what about the people's happiness, right?) but if the Senate is only going to base its decisions on 'what can the Fenyaro do for me' and not worry about seeing the Fenyaro wiped out to some plague, geological catastrophe, or encroachment, then this line of thought will have to be pursued.

*bows out*

I thought that the empire created the planet.

I know that sounds a little on the uncaring side (what about the people's happiness, right?) but if the Senate is only going to base its decisions on 'what can the Fenyaro do for me' and not worry about seeing the Fenyaro wiped out to some plague, geological catastrophe, or encroachment, then this line of thought will have to be pursued.

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The thing is, the Fenyaro are demanding things from the Empire. That's the reason that the topic here is 'what the Fenyaro can do for the Empire', because 'what the Empire will do for the Fenyaro' has already been outlined.

If the request had just been to join the Empire, then this discussion might not be taking place. Of course, the Empire would defend them, and maybe do some of the things the proposal demanded, but to have demanded them beforehand when the only thing the Fenyaro have to offer is "diplomacy" wasn't exactly smart. The Empire might want to look good, but it could probably find someone else somewhere who would join the Empire on less conditions. I say that that's the only thing that the Empire would get out of admitting the Fenyaro because the tech level here is so high that nothing else can be done.

Uso Tasuki said:

I thought that the empire created the planet.

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No, the empire didn't create New Fenyar. It was created by Shadow.

According to the wording of Proposal 68 ver.2 there were no 'demands' being made. Three proposals were made which hardly seemed to be unreasonable or overreaching on the part of the Fenyaro's rep.

1. The Fenyar government wishes to remain autonomous. We will adhere to Imperial rulings, but otherwise we would like to self govern our people.

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Okay so they promise to follow Imperial decrees but want to self-govern their own people. I doubt they'd get too rowdy the Empire couldn't handle it, nor would it be necessary to micromanage/occupy them to achieve the Empire's needs so low impact on Imperial resources there. If anything, doing so is moreso a drain on resources, albeit a slight one. Nepleslia is allowed to handle their own internal dealings and they are far more chaotic and dangerous. If the Empire wanted to clamp down on the rampant violence it would be a task of enormous magnitude costing much in time, resources, and lives.

2. The Fenyar government would also like to keep our system of commerce. Exchange rates would be issued and proper trade locations would be added.

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Again low impact. Hardly a 'demand' on the empire. If anything the Fenyaro stand to lose out more should an unscrupulous trader throw a good enough sales pitch at an unknowing individual. Care to trade me Manhattan Island for this box full of bead necklaces?

3. The Fenyar government, due to issues best left silent, would like to request a ban on Imperial technology from being allowed on Fenyaro soil. Excluding the means of transit on and off the planet.

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Whatever reasons this may be, it hardly constitues a demand or a threat to the Empire. Maybe they just don't want their way of life to be drastically changed by the presence of such advanced technology before they are ready? Even if its for sinister reasons this is unlikely to be a danger. I doubt this would be in any way an inconvenience since any facilities like a listening post or security station could just orbit the planet.

The Empire might want to look good, but it could probably find someone else somewhere who would join the Empire on less conditions. I say that that's the only thing that the Empire would get out of admitting the Fenyaro because the tech level here is so high that nothing else can be done.

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True it could just as easy to find another civilization with less stipulations but planets with friendly or even neutral locals don't just drop out of the sky everyday. Given that these three requests are not at all taxing to the Empire, this one is about as good as it gets. Then when the NEXT low tech civilization or even high tech, although its going to be very difficult to match the empire without having expanded out a few times themselves, is discovered and give their requests when asking for admittance into the Empire, it won't be the 'first' positive step. Besides, just how many conditions are 'too many'? Is three really too much?

the star army manufactures personel

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Then there's no need to go down and 'conquer' or enslave the local population. Besides that would only work against the Empire's image.

Planetary control and the fenyar goverment's permission is hardly needed to maintain a post there

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True that but you never know when someone might crash land there. One of the conditions Perry forced on the Japanese would be to provide comfort to any sailors who were shipwrecked on Japan. In this case there is no need to force it. The Fenyaro rep is asking to be let in and I'm sure that aiding any Imperial combatant that is injured after a forced landing would be a result of that. Why make enemies when it is not necessary or depopulate the planet when they could be helpful? Besides, like stated earlier, posts can just be orbital.

A planet that the goverment has to be protected and offers nothing in return is more of a drain than a boost in prestige. They can also easaly drag the empire into their own wars if the goverment isn't careful with them. In this respect they are a liability.

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As stated in the requests, they wish to be self governed. That likely means they intend to handle any infighting or civil wars themselves. How could they drag the Empire into its own wars when the Empire could easily raze the entire planet? If an external force is encroaching on them why allow that force a base from which to establish further strikes, possibly on the Empire? At most a small patrol or even unmanned probes can warn if Fenyaro is being invaded. This would hardly be a drain on a force that has thousands of ships.

I would've replied sooner but I just recently got home from work.

autonomous means autonomous, with this passed the senate can do nothing to Fenyar, only an imperial decree will effect them. They might as well be a nation unto themselves.

The commerce thing is BIG, or at least it would be if Yamatai had a real currency that was in use. It doesn't take a genius to see how abuseable this is.

3. the fact that Fenyar is keeping secrets from the government this openly goes to show just how little control Yamtai has over this planet. What's to stop them from letting some other race set up a base on their planet?

Then there's no need to go down and 'conquer' or enslave the local population. Besides that would only work against the Empire's image.

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That is the point, there really is no need for this planet to be a part of the empire.

If they have a civil war or any conflict there is going to be nothing stopping them from dragging the rest of the empire into it.



Bottom line is that people are just voting in the senate without an understanding of what they are doing.