Re: Fenyaro Admission to Empire

[Nyton]

autonomous means autonomous, with this passed the senate can do nothing to Fenyar, only an imperial decree will effect them. They might as well be a nation unto themselves.

Autonomous in their own self rule. If you read what the proposal states they will indeed follow Imperial rulings but they do not want to be micro-managed. So if the Empire decrees something they will have to listen but their everyday is being governed from within by those who understand their way of life. Think of it as Federal laws and State laws. There are Federal laws that all states must follow and there are local laws as necessary to tailor to a state's individual needs.

The commerce thing is BIG, or at least it would be if Yamatai had a real currency that was in use. It doesn't take a genius to see how abuseable this is.

Perhaps so but that is for (ideally) law abiding trade commisions to establish. While there is doubtfully anything the Fenyaro have of immense value, what's to stop a passerby from stopping in at the local trade outpost and buying into native arts and crafts? The next big thing could be Fenyaro style hats or clothes. Certainly someone with an eccentric style would like to own something genuinely made from Fenyaro. Just let the economy make one step at a time and you never know what will happen.

the fact that Fenyar is keeping secrets from the government this openly goes to show just how little control Yamtai has over this planet. What's to stop them from letting some other race set up a base on their planet?

If the secrets are of that big an impact then a single SAINT operative with stealth devices would be able to ascertain just what these secrets are. Just how much influence does the Empire have to exercise in order to feel that it is in control of a planet? How much does it currently have on Nepleslia? Or Elysia even? Are we talking daily life micro managing? Is that what the Empire needs to do in order to control a planet? What would the Senate know of day to day Fenyaro lives? So long as the Fenyaro are loyal to the Empire and follow what laws they can (after all there are limits that apply to them due to technology) then how would this be a lack of control?

As for another race coming in and setting up base on Fenyaro, if they are hostile then the Fenyaro would likely call for help or a patrol/probe would detect the invaders. With the request to limit technology on Fenyaro that would mean the only ones with permission to use any sort of limited technology would be the Empire. All of which would be kept on record. Any unlicensed or unrecorded technology detected outside of the legally marked areas would draw suspicion. So if done properly there is little chance of an outside force setting up shop.

If they have a civil war or any conflict there is going to be nothing stopping them from dragging the rest of the empire into it.

How would a planet that has been argued before to not have significant value be able to draw the Empire into its own civil wars? If such a war really did begin to consume Fenyaro the Empire would likely send mediators to try and keep the peace among it's subjects. If mediation fails then why would anyone else bother to toss their two cents in? As noted, the Empire could easily force the warring factions to the negotiating table quite effectively and coldly. Possibly even destroy each side's means or reason for waging war. This isn't Korea where two vastly different ideologies are each supporting a side and trying outmaneuver each other. Even if one side appealed to some faction or another for support be it dissenting Elysians or Rebels, the Empire should be able to take note and take means to cut off Fenyaro from such aide to reduce its escalation.

I agree that the main, and possibly only, benefit for admitting Fenyaro into the Empire is for image purposes. However it would appear to be a very cost effective one. And if should something happen where the Fenyaro appealed to the Empire for help because of some natural disaster and the Empire responded benevelontly and unconditionally then those would be even more points towards a better image of the Empire. Not to sound opportunistic but the U.S.'s response to the Tsunami crisis was definately a point in our favor.

Second, I also agree with your concern to have a little more discussion during Senate voting panels. Perhaps instead of just flat out voting right away you give it some time for the proposition to sit on the table for a while so that everyone with an opinion can chime in. Any 'responsible' senator would see to it that they check the Senate Forum in case a new movement is decreed. Instead of voting right off the bat just post that the motion is acknowledged, express concerns if any or that you have none and are awaiting the rest of the senators to express theirs. Once all have motioned no concern then proceed to the vote. If there is a concern discuss it and don't just proceed to the vote if the discussion is unfinished be it for reasons such as RL interfering. The Senate doesn't have to be IC but it can have at least a few rules/guidelines so that these concerns don't go unaddressed.

 

[Zack]

autonomous means autonomous, with this passed the senate can do nothing to Fenyar, only an imperial decree will effect them. They might as well be a nation unto themselves.

Your not bringing anything new to the table on this point. Fenyar is above the law of the senate and only imperial decrees apply to the planet with the exception of the senate ruling in question. ANY law that the senate passes can be ignored by Fenyar. This is not a case where federal law overrides state law like you put it. The language of this clearly states that only imperial decrees apply to Feynar.

In this case, because Fenyar has nothing to offer in trade (including style, which can be manufactured off world) Feynar only acts as a economic time bomb. This is again assuming that Yamatai has a working system of money. Because Feynar is substantially lower in tech someone can easily go there and replicate trillions of Feynar dollars (for lack of a better unit) and then convert them to Yamatai KS. This makes the digital currency thing that Yamatai is trying completely worthless as a system to stop counterfeiting and money laundering. Along the same lines this attaches the Fenyar and Yamatai economies to an extent. Because Feynar autonomously can not hope to achieve any level of secure currency against the Yamatai technologies Feynar should attract criminals and devalue the KS.

a single SAINT operative with stealth devices would be able to ascertain just what these secrets are

Impossible, even with all the technology at their disposal it would be virtually impossible to detect anything if Fenyar wanted to hide it.

if they are hostile then the Fenyaro would likely call for help or a patrol/probe would detect the invaders

This is assuming that the Fenyaro aren't hostile toward the empire. Because of this treaty, also, the Yamatai goverment is generally bound to protect fenyar if it is attacked. This isn't a case of escalation, the empire could easaly wipe out one side entirely.

The senate is supposed to be IC according to wes.

 

[Nyton]

I see what you mean regarding Senate and Imperial rulings. It does sort of throw Fenyar into a sort of grey area where the Empress has to personally intervene to make any sort of difference to the planet. With a condition like that and the Empress surely having many more pressing matters to be concerned about then just one low tech world it could mean that any rulings would be far and few between. Why not have the Senate bring up an addendum to allow them to pass feasible laws regarding Fenyar? At the very least give it a chance to review relations and make adjustments accordingly without having to bring the Empress into it.

In regards to the counterfeiting problem, a criminal making trillions would have to raise some sort of red flags somewhere. I doubt someone could just walk in with a few KS and then walk out with many times that. Customs would have to find a huge stash of cash to be fishy. I'm certain there may be ways around that though. Several someones could go in and return with a smaller amount of counterfeit, or an individual making multiple trips. However as I don't have as much information regarding the problems of counterfeit money and such I am at a loss for a solution at this time. Suggestions?

Quote:
a single SAINT operative with stealth devices would be able to ascertain just what these secrets are


Impossible, even with all the technology at their disposal it would be virtually impossible to detect anything if Fenyar wanted to hide it.

Okay I'll admit too that it wouldn't be THAT easy. But is Fenyaro magic so effective that it can hide something from planetary scanning? Or in depth spot scanning by an automated probe, regardless of however long it would take?

This is assuming that the Fenyaro aren't hostile toward the empire. Because of this treaty, also, the Yamatai goverment is generally bound to protect fenyar if it is attacked. This isn't a case of escalation, the empire could easaly wipe out one side entirely.

Assuming the Fenyaro are not hostile but then why would they ask for entrance into the Empire in the first place? Suppose an elaborate double cross is planned, what could they possibly do? It would take years of positioning and by then someone in the intel field should take notice. If not, then again the planet is vulnerable to anyone so why risk it? You're right. The Fenyar have a lot more to gain at being admitted into the Empire in terms of protection but isn't there a way make it less of an economic impact? I suggested earlier to leave probes or a small patrol to detect an outside invasion. You wouldn't even need to leave a huge resource consuming fleet garrisonned there, just a means for one to arrive in time to counter this threat.

And yes, I think the main reason the Fenyaro senator put forward the motion was precisely that: to gain the protection of the Empire from outside threats. Would detection and neutralization of such threats really be so problematic? If something is high tech enough to threaten Fenyar then couldn't it also be a threat to the Empire? Even a weak one? Would the Empire allow the SMX or other such hostiles to snatch this planet since its of no consequence or should the enemy be given no such quarter? After all they must've wanted it for some reason.

I found confirmation that Wes did want the Senate to be IC. Perhaps that should be reviewed? I look at some of the posts in the Senate floor and they don't all seem to be very IC. It may just be that the players for the representatives have forgotten this or it maybe needs to be reviewed to determine whether it should remain IC or be played OOC. Another topic for discussion or final decision by Wes.

 

[Zack]

Not all Fenyaro think the same way, so not all are going to be friendly.

Assuming you make a full planetary scan, are you going to be able to detect a plot forming? I think not.

The real probem is people are voting because something looks nice or for OOC reasons and not giving real consideration towards what they are voting on.

 

[Nyton]

You can't force everyone to be friendly. But if they want to stay in a positive relationship with the Empire they claim loyalty to, it would help to do so. Or at least keep the violence in check. I'm sure the Empire wouldn't be happy if their soldiers or citizens were being mistreated when visiting or crashing on Fenyar.

Well, in the terms of planetary scans I was thinking more along the lines of detecting whatever 'thing' they are trying to keep secret. You'd need intel agents on the ground doing constant surveillance to get information on any plots and that I perceive to be impossible to achieve with much success.

If the Senate is supposed to be IC and people are playing it OOC then like I said they need to be reminded of this and play accordingly. The way I saw the Senate posts, votes were made without enough time to allow all senators to review and approve/disapprove. Thats when discussions like these need to be made. Not after the movement has already been approved. To that, I agree in that the Senate, if its going to be an IC Senate, needs to be played IC and the players responding as though IC for the planet they are representing. It doesn't even have to be boring, it could actually be fun and full of political intrigue, bribery, and alliances. Those events could happen off the floor and attempts to sway opinions could be discussed during those recesses. Motions may take longer to pass doing things like this but hey since when does any senate accomplish things really fast unless it was a popular/unanimous subject anyways?

 

[Zack]

Political RP in the past has been highly unpopular on this site and as much as I would enjoy it I don't think anything along those lines is likely to pop up anytime in the near future.

If they had a 'thing' to keep secret odds are they wouldn't hide it on the planet until just before it was used so it wouldn't be detected. As for SAINT infiltrating Fenyar, they have droped the ball before on things like this.

 

[Nyton]

Really? That's too bad. With all the different mindsets, planetary cultures, and senatorial representatives I would imagine it to be quite in depth and machiavellian. Maybe after I've gotten situated I can run for an NPC senatorial spot. lol