Regarding The Skill Section on Character Biographies

[Doshii Jun]

I dunno though. Especially for older, bigger characters, it just seems like it could turn out just as big, if not bigger. Take, for example, Kumiko. She started out as a technician in the stararmy, but has an engineering background from school. That's two sections already. Then you add in her time as a frontline fighter, and now you're linking in the infantry page and writing all of that out. Then she studied to specialize as an armorer. So she's got that. Now she's moved up to being a squad leader, acting as the XO of a ship, which would involve a whole new set of skills. If I'm writing out a blurb like that for every one of those occupations, it's just returned to being just as large as writing the skills out was in the first place, but now a GM has to follow all those extra links to get the specific details of what her training is in, instead of just reading the listed skill. That seems especially extraneous, just because the blurbs you have written read almost like most good skills read as anyway, plus a bullet list at the bottom.

A good point not addressed by my example. Allow me.

For any veteran character, much of what you tapped out there would go into the char's history. That means you're inlinking to those past occupations — engineer, soldier, whatever she is not doing right now.

Reasoning: those are not her primary occupations. Right now, she's a squad leader. That is what needs to be teased out. Focus on the current, because a GM needs to know that more than anything else.

If there's something from her past that you, her player, thinks is particularly germane to what's going on, you can break that out instead of a hobby/pursuit/whatever that's not as material to what's going on.

Again, the focus is on what is current. If you're transporting a highly veteran character, a GM knows you come with a lot of skills and baggage, and they will need to read a little more on you anyway. You make it easier for them by inlinking to the past occupations and, if truly required, tease out a specialization or two in your her history (via a bullet).

Does that mean you don't get to list 14 skills and 28 specializations on your bio? Yes. You have to get choosy. You have to employ brevity. That means less work for GMs and, hopefully, you.

I do want to point out before we go any further, because that seems to be something people are focusing on. The current skill system still makes you justify your skills. That's not really something new to the system Doshii proposed. So I think it would be best if we stop treating it like that's a benefit of the system when it's something we already had in place.

Wes rightly points out that the current skill system pushes out boilerplate text and complicates the template. That's what we're avoiding here.

You're right that the "justification of skills" isn't new. The way you do it is — it's done via narrative and inlinking, not copypasta and numbers.

 

[Syaoran]

They get away with putting their occupational training from the CCG in there yeah. Because it's assumed they went through the mandatory training for their job. But of the GMs that I have watched approve things they required any skills not part of their basic job skill list to have some sort of justification, that was at least implied. Like if character history says they went to college, but not for what, but then said character has a high math skill. It's kinda assumed math was one of the things they went for.

 

[Eistheid]

Well my wish has been granted so I'll get started on my end of the bargain, feedback.

My initial impression is that the system presented by @Doshii Jun works well and is fairly self contained, it lets you give an idea of how their history contributed to their skill set. To further highlight things it gives a few points with a bit of elaboration for flavour.

This coupled with a bit of discussion with the GM (Which I should hope would happen anyway) could give a GM a good idea of what they're dealing with.

I suppose my initial impression is that this works fine for new characters, and possibly even would make the creation process for most NPCs fairly painless.

Moving on... @Aendri raises the point that it isn't suitable for older characters... And I completely agree. Where I disagree however is the assertion that the basic template should be suitable for older characters.

I am personally of the opinion that older character sheets should evolve over time to reflect the changes and increased breadth of experience. If the template doesn't work adapt the design and get the information you need in there. Work with your GM, or someone like Aendri to make sure it is still readable and useful for referencing information, but old characters should by no means be shackled to the initial template.

So, as long as the actual skills and occupation page starts to be discussed and improved for the setting, I'm okay with using this as a starter template as long as it is stated that with time the character page can and should be evolved and expanded to keep it useful.

 

[Syaoran]

Looking over the example, now that things have settled places, there is a question I have. It seems to me that it's implying that the occupation and hobby stuff be physically separated from the history correct? It appears by using even headers?

That's kind of key to me, because that's what I believe should be done. I really just don't want to have to poke through the entire history just to find skills. If they're all in one area together and easy to read, I'm fine with it on a formatting perspective at least.

 

[Doshii Jun]

So, as long as the actual skills and occupation page starts to be discussed and improved for the setting, I'm okay with using this as a starter template as long as it is stated that with time the character page can and should be evolved and expanded to keep it useful.

Indeed. This system is meant more for initial creation and to help players get into the setting while minimizing work all around. As characters get more experience and whatnot, their biographies become complex and demand breaking free of the template.

My preference is for brevity, but ultimately it's up to the player to decide how they like their bio to look and how they want to work with their GM. No need for veteran characters to be strictly tied to all aspects of the template.

I would prefer that only the current stuff is maintained on the main bio page — that's something I'd make strict. We have some chars that are pretty long in the tooth. Unless summarized well, those bios can get long. Breaking that bio off into a separate subpage seems prudent.

Again, that's my preference. As long as it's there somewhere, I'm fine leaving that to the player.

Looking over the example, now that things have settled places, there is a question I have. It seems to me that it's implying that the occupation and hobby stuff be physically separated from the history correct? It appears by using even headers?

That's kind of key to me, because that's what I believe should be done. I really just don't want to have to poke through the entire history just to find skills. If they're all in one area together and easy to read, I'm fine with it on a formatting perspective at least.

Headers would be employed for primary and secondary occupations (Occupation and Whatever). Inlinking also goes there, unless it's not current.

For past occupations (VETERAN CHARS), I suppose you could have a subheader under Occupation that just contains inlinks, so it might look something like this:

===== Occupation =====

Blah blah blah whatever is current.

==== or === Past occuaptions === or ====

Soldier inlink, cook inlink, stripper inlink, etc.

I don't like this because it makes the page longer, but depending on how you write/format the history, this is a good style choice that doesn't add much work.

"Specializations," such as they might be, could go under a separate subheader with ease. I didn't imply that above because I thought the occupation text was short enough to not need the subheader, but I think adding one is fine — so long as it's understood that "specialization" might not be the word used by each player. "Focus," "Special Abilities," "Advanced Skillset," and other descriptors could be used that might better relay what the player's conveying.

In the end, they amount to the same thing for char creation. For military characters, I'd expect standardization across the look of the template.

 

[Wes]

I'd like to make it as simple (as in not complex) as possible, but maybe we should encourage history writers to use subheaders to break their life up into manageable chunks, like I do with Hanako's history.

Eg.

===== History =====
Bubba was born in YE 11 in Podunk, Yamatai, delivered by a postal worker on the side of the road. He grew up in a rural area and had a fun childhood with his loving mother and their dog. She taught him to speak Trade and gave him a strong code of morals.

==== Attempts at College ====
Bubba's initial plan was to go to school to learn starship repair and start up his own spaceport garage. During his time there, he learned some basic math, welding, and took a class in Yamataian that gave him basic fluency.

==== Star Army ====
After flunking college, Bubba decided there was one other way to get trained in starship repair. One that was free, and gave some of the best training around -- the Star Army. He drove all night to the Kyoto megacity, steeled himself and walked into the recruiting station. Soon he was at Educational Facility 1 where he was trained as a [[stararmy:Technician]] with all the appropriate military and technical skills. He was not the best student in the class, but he worked hard and was able to pass and achieve his dream. The only problem was at that time, he was sucked into the Second Mishhuvurthyar War and found himself fighting for his life on a Star Army cruiser involved in epic space battles.

==== Free Trader ====
After his tour of duty was over, Bubba used his savings to purchase an old tramp freighter and began making cargo runs for small businesses...during this time he began to learn how to be streetwise and get contacts and jobs from some of the more questionable people who couldn't use the large cargo transporters.

 

[Syaoran]

Well as long as it's not encouraged to weave it into the phsycial writing of history and leave it only there. Also for characters with multiple prior occupations, they can write up a whole separate page and just link their main page to that. That's what I do for skills finances and inventory for my characters when one of the 3 starts getting kind of big.

@Wes I think the subheaders should really only be used for during RP stuff and pretty much base it on either plots or missions(if the missions are really long). We don't want them breaking up pre-RP stuff because that will make it look like a bunch of smaller sections and they'll subconsciously compensate and people might find themselves struggling to write histories that look appealing

 

[Doshii Jun]

They get away with putting their occupational training from the CCG in there yeah. Because it's assumed they went through the mandatory training for their job. But of the GMs that I have watched approve things they required any skills not part of their basic job skill list to have some sort of justification, that was at least implied. Like if character history says they went to college, but not for what, but then said character has a high math skill. It's kinda assumed math was one of the things they went for.

Apologies Syaoran; didn't mean to miss this.

"Education" is one part of this system that I specifically left out. It's like you say: if a char lists going to college, we expect them to know some things. If there are things they don't know, I'd expect that lack of knowledge to have a narrative purpose. The player should write that out — why don't they know basic math despite having a college degree? (Because they're a comm major like me, haw.)

That does mean that characters who get secondary education that is not vocational in nature get some skills assumed, and others are linked to where they went to school (Kyoto War College, for instance). If the college is generic, the player just has to say where and what the char's degree was; we can infer from there, as the skills they picked up are basic. If the skills were somehow special, they would be put into the occupation or folded into hobby/pursuits.

I'd like to make it as simple (as in not complex) as possible, but maybe we should encourage history writers to use subheaders to break their life up into manageable chunks, like I do with Hanako's history.

That's another style choice for veteran characters. Perfectly valid. Some players have their histories on another page; some summarize the history. All good options, though a GM might come along and ask for certain information. As long as a player's ready for that, no problem.

New characters shouldn't need this much depth.

Well as long as it's not encouraged to weave it into the phsycial writing of history and leave it only there. Also for characters with multiple prior occupations, they can write up a whole separate page and just link their main page to that. That's what I do for skills finances and inventory for my characters when one of the 3 starts getting kind of big.

Understood. Yes, you break out the occupation specifically via header. I recommend a 5 header for new characters; older ones could go to a 4 depending on how their bio looks.

And yes, with past occupations, you could write up a whole page and list experiences in those occupations and the specializations for each. That's another style choice. I'm not particularly fond of it myself, but again, that's for veteran players who might actually need the option.

 

[Doshii Jun]

Would it help everyone if I shifted Yukari's bio to fit the system? I'm happy to do so; it might better present everything that's going on here in the thread. I'd need a couple days to do it (and I promise to actually take only that time, hurrrr).

 

[Eistheid]

It would be an interesting proof of concept I'll admit. If it works for you I'd be more than happy to see it @Doshii Jun

 

[Doshii Jun]

I'll do that then, and explain the style choices after it's done. My plan is to try and hew to the template as strictly as possible.

 

[FrostJaeger]

@Doshii Jun - What would one do if they have Independent characters?

Especially considering said characters frequently tend to have a less clearly-defined range of skill-sets...

 

[Doshii Jun]

@Doshii Jun - What would one do if they have Independent characters?

Especially considering said characters frequently tend to have a less clearly-defined range of skill-sets...

Great question.

An independent character would follow the template as described, using the last occupation for which they trained. A character's got to have trained somehow to do something. Even if it's being a thug, chances are high they came to that generic occupation through some kind of training -- even if it's informal.

While I understand the temptation to not affix an occupation to an independent who has no static class within an indie plot, for new characters we must not give in. Doing so opens the floodgates to having an occupation of "independent" that lands us back where we are now -- skills with no realistic source or clustering.

I suspect independent characters won't always stick to their occupations for long, and that's fine. As a character gains experience, they can follow the path of veteran characters.

 

[Doshii Jun]

https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=characters:yamatai:suzuka_yukari#occupation

Yukari's page has the template applied. Again, I've not modified any other part of the bio -- her history is rather long, but it does touch on her past occupations (indirectly). This is more so you get a visual of how it looks.

Note too that her occupation listing is sparse for such a long-active character. That's by my design, but I kept as close to my original vision of the template as possible. Others have said they'd go beyond that in various ways, which I think are all fine. Veteran players have experience, and therefore some license, to go beyond the basics.

What do we all think?

 

[Amaryllis]

It looks really nice to me. I don't see a problem with it. For whatever it's worth I like all the ideas you put forth in this thread.

 

[Eistheid]

I was holding off from commenting in here since I wanted to see if anyone would point out something that could be improved upon that I had missed.

Anyway, despite having reservations about the concept seeing it applied to a character has convinced me that this will definitely work, especially for new characters, and probably NPCs. I imagine that should someone want to highlight specific skills they can always expand upon the the section or even include a sub-page that goes into the character's skills in more depth if desired. Given that you can look into the skill set attributed to an occupation it gives GMs a good idea of what can be expected from a player character.

I might be adapting to this in one form or another for my own character pages, not entirely sure yet.

I will also look into compiling a list of occupations for the purpose of making a general occupation page that players can reference.

 

[Nashoba]

This change still leaves room for expansion of the skills, but offers a basic template that most folks should be able to accomplish.

 

[Eistheid]

Well I haven't forgotten about this and so to see it move along I shall ask: Would it be best to have all occupations listed under the guide namespace? ([[guide: 0ccupations]])

I would also appreciate if anyone could add any potential occupations beyond what is provided here: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=stararmy:occupations

That way I can start assembling a list of occupations and slowly turn them into articles that can be used by everyone. After the basic, general occupations pages are done I'd be willing to update any faction specific occupation pages as needed.

As a final part of this I will eventually be updating the list of skills and associating relevant ones with occupations. This way when someone looks at an occupation page if they want more information on what that occupation covers they can look into the individual skills in further depth.

However let's not get too far ahead. Right now I need to know if it is acceptable to create a page in the guide namespace and a list of any and all relevant occupations that people can come up with.

 

[Doshii Jun]

And since this was my idea, I'm helping Eis with this project. They were just too nice to remind me too. ^_^

 

[Eistheid]

I have the bare bones of an occupations page up here: https://wiki.stararmy.com/doku.php?id=guide:occupations

Feel free to add any occupations you feel are missing. It'll be dressed up and fleshed out with time.