Rules Enforcement

Gallant said:

Large Brick Telling Me Don't Be a Dick by the Guy who literally just saw to the ensured push to drive out one of the best members of SARP by banning someone who barely mattered or even barely spoke.

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No.

Syaoran said it well: the reason I'm mad isn't because Raz got banned. It's because you dare to say it's fair that only he got banned. You willingly chose one player above others, despite how many others are far worse and far commonly so. You know why I have problems with the moderation of things like the Discord? Because it has not been fair for months.

I thought hard about replying, but it needs to happen because I'm not going to let you post a brick about "burying the hatchet" now that you've essentially killed one half of the community for the sake of "rules" being achieved. I'm going to tell you exactly like it it is: you already forced Wes into a decision he never should have had to make. You did. That fact alone is why many members had been banned from the Official Discord more than any other, enraged at the idea that you did all this. And now, after the fact, you've decided rules matter?

I oppose the mods because they've been impartial for months. They'd ban for some people's second offense without any reason or actual timeframe in mind. But meanwhile, some people just got away with it for their 8th or 9th offensive statement that month. I find it hard to believe we can get fairness with those same mods here. I find it hard to believe we can have fairness after carried out one of the most ridiculous mob-style witch hunts I've ever seen. And I'm not going to blame anyone but the people who had already set-up another site and had intended to leave BY YOUR OWN STATEMENTS. You'd already chosen to leave, but Wes chose to try and include you. Don't act like you hadn't already planned to abandon the site. Don't act like you're innocent of anything. The rules can't be fair and I certainly can't believe you're looking for any sort of peace when you come out and attack my logical rage at the injustice carried out. Raz was banned without much reason besides being a dick. You think you or any of those responsible for this are any different?

Funny thing is that you are. You're the ones that forced a ban to happen at the behest of threatening the site's community with a split. Actually voiced or not, you'd drawn a line in the sand knowing what you'd bring about. And yet you still did it. You destroyed one of the best RPs to happen to the site for the sake of someone who barely even does anything because he's barely around and shattered countless old member's faiths. All for the sake of your supposed fairness.

So pardon me if I decide to campaign against the moderation that has shown clear bias to your members and rulebreakers. So pardon me if I'm going to fight for an equal slate for everyone so they can return for these changed rules. And pardon me if I feel your ridiculously long "Gallant Bomb" isn't genuine. Trying to say I'm wrong, after you just drove all my friends away? That's how you remind me and many others that there was even a hatchet there. You've already taken one of the worst steps in trying to make right with the people you didn't simply drive away from SARP, for the sake of trying to further validate your actions. I'd at least had more respect for you if you acknowledged this as a witch hunt, just like you'd commonly carry out against Frost, the only difference being you're right about Raz.

Raz was a dick. Who posted 1 line meme-worthy comments no worse than anything I've seen @Zack say before. Far less worse than the things I and others were subject to from yourself and some of those now practically gloating on the fact Wes chose one side of something he never should have had to choose. And if we're going to be holding him accountable, that should include all of you. Especially if we're going to preach a fairness of rule enforcement becoming our new focus.

You are now the CO-FM and defacto caretaker of Nepleslia, you are now the primary item responsible for keeping the faction alive. You now have a lot of work on your plate, I'd go take care of that.

Arieg said:

You are now the CO-FM and defacto caretaker of Nepleslia, you are now the primary item responsible for keeping the faction alive. You now have a lot of work on your plate, I'd go take care of that.

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I don't need you reminding me. The people responsible for making my friends leave are why I am. But please: do not assume you know how much I can handle. You've not seen me motivated by something beyond my own enjoyment before. So ALSO please: respectfully do not try to play me off as being too busy to care for fairness on the site.

Oh, hey, I got tagged.

Cool.

This is only like the third or fifth time that this has happened in recent memory.

This is normally where I come in and gloat, and if I was a better person I wouldn't do that.

Go take a look at the USO. The 'Can I do this all better if I just did it myself?' faction. It runs smooth. That isn't because we don't have conflict between players. We've got plenty of that. But instead of bans I've got plenty of other tools to manage it. Some players don't work well together and that's ok, they can go off and JP with other people or whatever. Some players tend to have actual grievances with other players and I can usually drag everyone into a chat session to solve things. If that doesn't work, players are encouraged to start their own thing and leave just like with Legix and Alex. The faction ends up better for it. Then there are actual players that I can just say fuck-off to and exclude from my stuff entirely when they've repeatedly caused problems without showing any signs of improvement.

Again, the problem we have right now isn't the players, its how staff manages the problems on the site. They've been doing a lousy job and have played a large role in the last few player die-offs. They seem to be making steps to improve though, and I think the site will be better for it as they continue to improve the process for dealing with complaints.

Zack said:

Oh, hey, I got tagged.

Cool.

This is only like the third or fifth time that this has happened in recent memory.

This is normally where I come in and gloat, and if I was a better person I wouldn't do that.

Go take a look at the USO. The 'Can I do this all better if I just did it myself?' faction. It runs smooth. That isn't because we don't have conflict between players. We've got plenty of that. But instead of bans I've got plenty of other tools to manage it. Some players don't work well together and that's ok, they can go off and JP with other people or whatever. Some players tend to have actual grievances with other players and I can usually drag everyone into a chat session to solve things. If that doesn't work, players are encouraged to start their own thing and leave just like with Legix and Alex. The faction ends up better for it. Then there are actual players that I can just say fuck-off to and exclude from my stuff entirely when they've repeatedly caused problems without showing any signs of improvement.

Again, the problem we have right now isn't the players, its how staff manages the problems on the site. They've been doing a lousy job and have played a large role in the last few player die-offs. They seem to be making steps to improve though, and I think the site will be better for it as they continue to improve the process for dealing with complaints.

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The way they've managed problems is why I've made it clear I wanted genuinely neutral moderation in the last few months. It's also why I think a cleaned slate PLUS the rules is the best way to manage problems and genuinely solve out the problems we faced as a site. But it seems too many people feel hurt to be fair. It's sadly telling when Zack's USO handles disagreements better than we did as a site on a whole.

Legix, I find you sadly disconnected with reality.

I've been target of continuous harrassment from Raz ever since November 11th 2016. I've had disagreements with him before, but there began a long campaign of talking in my back to sully my reputation and supposed competency as a Game Master, to expose my players to snide comments for the only crime of being in my plot, and I had to suffer indignities like being told "I forgot to take my meds" just because we happened to disagree on certain topics. At that time, I was Staff, and I wasn't shy about documenting what was going on. But Wes wouldn't budge, and wouldn't say why.

It was only months later, while still on the suffering end of Raz's sharp "wit" that I found out why Wes wouldn't do a thing. Raz and Ame were a package deal, and Wes was concerned about losing Ame. But what about me?!?! Was it really okay to let Raz go roughshod over people like that? Didn't the factor of losing -me- even enter his mind? I resigned from Staff back then in protest for his inaction. I was there, reporting in things that were actual problems, and he was doing absolutely nothing about it. The best I got, in months, was him giving Raz a warning over the "forgot to take meds" thing. That was my only concession. Not enough.

I might have left the site right there. But I didn't. I've left SARP before for the sake of my ego and pride, and what it did was mostly punish my players, whom were caught in the crossfire of something which had nothing to do with them. So, I bit in my cheek and stayed. I kept GMing while hunching my shoulders, hoping not to much crap would come my way. A vain hope, as my plot was SAINT elements, and Wes empowered Raz with co-adminship so far as SAINT was concerned. My nightmare just got worse.

But somehow, stepping down from Staff made people turn to me more for Staff-like thing. Apparently, I did it well, because I earned even Ametheliana's regard with that. Somehow, I became Staff again, though my troubles with Raz didn't stop. In fact, sometimes they were greatly aggravated when the duo would join force on a particular topic, or Raz would speak through Ame (which made me unable to trust her). Eventually things came to a head and Raz finally overstepped, Direct Messaging me on Discord a few paragraphs-worth of vitriol.

I saw my chance. It was the first time I had an actual smoking gun that couldn't be seen any other way. I knew what it could do to Raz, I knew what it could do to Ametheliana... and I still used it. However sorry I might have felt about how Ame could be affected paled against what I considered my right to look out for myself. So, Raz almost got banned and almost lost leadership over SAINT (didn't unofficially, did officially). Not as much progress as I'd hoped for.

Raz was not cowed for very long, so it went on. The only real change I saw was when I allowed one setting discussion thread to turn into a giant shitstorm I hoped would allow people to let off steam and say what they needed to say to each other becaused they'd reduced themselves to a bunch of tattletaling children. I happen to have a talk with Ametheliana going over her discomfort with me over wanting to have Raz banned. I didn't apologize for it. I just showed her the other side of the coin, despite understanding she would always take his side.

Raz, briefly, seemed to let up. I was incredulous. It was too good to be true. The worse that happened was the occasional agree-to-disagree for a couple of weeks.

But then he got back to playing dirty again. My chief example is recent, concerning the election thing, when Doshii made a Yuumi post attempting to bring Sachiko to heel for... whatever reason. I'm not saying Doshii was correct, but Raz' response was to fight back not against Doshii, but against me, trying to put unannounced sticks in the wheels of my my plot just for the purpose of thwarting Doshii in turn; perhaps identifying me as Doshii's weakpoint. I managed to negociate both posts being taken down; but make no mistake: Raz got exactly what he wanted. He blackmailed me, and won because I was trying to protect my plot and maintain the peace.

But what kind of peace is that? I was back to bracing against the next Raz-disaster. The election-thing was still going on for at least another 2-3 long weeks. Dammit.

I spent most of this week in voicechat with the Asteria guys because they felt pretty marginalized on several topics that I could connect with. Wes was proving himself to be a less-than-sympathetic referee to the point of being unfair. I did, before they actually decided, make the suggestion that if they weren't happy here, they ought to leave. They (and I) chose to devote their free time here; in the case of Game Masters, we give all the time to entertain those that we bring under our wing. It's not a betrayal to choose to stop giving in an hostile environment to migrate someplace where the free time invested would be more rewarding. I said that to them.

The next day, they had actually commited, though they had a horde of reasons of thier own. Because they were leaving (I was tempted, I have unfinished business here), I worked with them to make it as undisruptive as possible. This wasn't a "O woe is me maneuver" - because I've survived 3 SARP schisms before and they were all much less benign that what this one was shaping up to be. I made it a point to have them uphold the wiki article we have on leaving the community (there is one, because we know it happens).

But yesterday, Wes noticed enough of the breadcrumbs to come over to their Discord to see what was going on. He read their chat, realized what was going on and tried to work with them on what he could do to retain them. That wasn't the plan. That had never been their plan. But Wes seemed earnest, they were impressed by it at the time... and Wes then decided, on the evidence he had, to ban Raz.

The rest is history you mostly know. But you didn't know the other side of the coin.

Which begs me to conclude with this: no one is more the architect of Raz's downfall than I. Absolutely no one has wanted him banned more than I did. Even if half the site's community crumbles from it, even if Ametheliana - whom was not that bad - suffers for it... I find myself lacking the guilt or the regret I ought to be feeling even if I sympathized and didn't actually wish them ill. Wes made a hard decision yesterday, but my sympathy is twisted by the knowledge that my so-called-friend left me to fend for myself for so long despite my asking for his help.

No, my nightmare may finally be over, and I owe it to myself to not regret it one bit. I've been with SARP long enough to know that it was doing okay enough before the Ame/Raz clique, and I have complete faith that it will do okay enough - possiby even better - now that this community may start healing from things which had been twisting it.

~ Fred, for a change speaking out for himself

Fred I skimmed what you're saying. But you're missing the point, no one is saying Raz shouldn't have been banned. Everyone agrees that Raz did banworthy things. The thing is, Raz isn't the only one who did ban worthy things. That's where the problem lies.

Syaoran said:

Fred I skimmed what you're saying. But you're missing the point, no one is saying Raz shouldn't have been banned. Everyone agrees that Raz did banworthy things. The thing is, Raz isn't the only one who did ban worthy things. That's where the problem lies.

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This. A thousand. Times. This.

I do not care about the past. You'd been bullied by Raz since November 2016, @Fred?

What a coincidence. Did you know Ame and Gunhand had been bullied since about then by those within Asteria, such as Cadet? Who "apologized" and then doubled-back on it within a month or less worth's of time with calls that (for example) Ame was sabotaging the site? And then harassed her in chat while spreading rumors and warning players about her?

Just as recently as October, members of Asteria were engaging in acts of warning players about members of Nepleslia or simply friends of Ame.

As I've said, I want equal justice. But because they're more stealthy about it, we're ignoring them but leaving Raz banned? This is my problem. If you're going to ban Raz, then ban them. They are no better, nor do they have a shorter victim list. Instead, you're acting as if they're fine because they didn't target you, Fred, a member of staff. Maybe you can understand my issues when I've dealt with months of many of the players now leaving or considering it having complained about many of the people now acting as if they were superior to Raz. Countless members who would join in on polls only if they were protected. Because they were that scared of the harassment.

I'm not disillusioned. I'm sick of the people willing to overlook one side but punish the other. I want SARP to be rid of corruption that Doshii even acknowledged when I spoke with him about various members, yet just shrugged and said "Part of being SARP is having to let people we hate ruin our days as long as it doesn't break the rules". And that's paraphrasing, but I assure you I'll go grab the quote where it said that assholes and harassing members are "part of SARP".

The problem is entirely that we're not acting. We're looking away and saying we did a good thing by banning one person. Maybe Ame would still be here if the others were gone. Maybe then there wouldn't have been such blatant outrage. It has nothing to do with Raz getting banned.

It has to do with the fact it was only him, as if he was the only problem.

Syaoran said:

Fred I skimmed what you're saying. But you're missing the point, no one is saying Raz shouldn't have been banned. Everyone agrees that Raz did banworthy things. The thing is, Raz isn't the only one who did ban worthy things. That's where the problem lies.

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We were leaving. Because the things we did in retaliation had gotten old. We were sick of fighting it. Now we aren’t because Wes came and spoke to us. We did not seek him out, we did not beat him into coming to stop us. We did not even send our letter of grievance.

Ira said:

We were leaving. Because the things we did in retaliation had gotten old. We were sick of fighting it.

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That doesn't make the things you did 'okay' or good though. It doesn't absolve you from the fact that you violated the rules. And I keep hearing the "Well we were going to leave" excuse, and it's getting annoying, and I've help back from saying it, but if you were going to leave, then "Get to gettin' ". Either leave or stay, don't wave around "Well we were thinking about leaving." You either left or you didn't.

Syaoran said:

That doesn't make the things you did 'okay' or good though. It doesn't absolve you from the fact that you violated the rules. And I keep hearing the "Well we were going to leave" excuse, and it's getting annoying, and I've help back from saying it, but if you were going to leave, then "Get to gettin' ". Either leave or stay, don't wave around "Well we were thinking about leaving." You either left or you didn't.

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There was plenty of bad blood to go around. What rules were violated?

I didn’t say we were thinking of leaving. I said the bags were packed. The uhaul was loaded. We were shutting down plots and saying our good byes. It was happening, there was no threat implied or even stated.

Then wes came and stopped us.

What are you even in here arguing for? It is just making things worse.

As for violating the rules. Yea I fought back when I was antagonized.

That’s what happens when people are threatened, intimidated and bullied. Some of us bite back.

And make no mistake, I may speak harshly, said some harsh things. but I have never once threatened anybody, black mailed them or harassed them.

So if you want more bans, stop arguing for it, make a name list and cite your reasons.

Ira said:

As for violating the rules. Yea I fought back when I was antagonized.

That’s what happens when people are threatened, intimidated and bullied. Some of us bite back.

And make no mistake, I may speak harshly, said some harsh things. but I have never once threatened anybody, black mailed them or harassed them.

So if you want more bans, stop arguing for it, make a name list and cite your reasons.

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Yet there's no belief/lean to believe Raz' behavior got worse because of you guys bullying his wife?

Come on now.

And unlike those here who feign a belief in justice, I've given up resorting to making lists and demands. I stopped that when people pointed out how scummy it was months ago. I stopped trying to get you banned and instead only complained when you reached your worse. And even then, I wouldn't even call for permanent bans of any kind. Unlike you, I was one of many who tried to move on and kept getting dragged back.

So sorry if I'm biting back. I just want equal enforcement of rules. You, Ira, and those who participated in lengthy campaigns of harassment against Ame? You should be walking out the door if we're getting rid of Raz. You are no better than him. You sat there, having "packed your bags" and don't realize how sad you look for it? You clearly were thinking of leaving. In your own words, you were leaving. But you didn't.

Instead, you had your every demand fulfilled and decided to stay. And while I support Wes being rational and figuring out if he needed to ban Raz, I certainly don't agree with the idea that we should pardon any of you for the things you did to Ame or Gunhand. Especially if people are holding things against Raz from over a year or more ago. You need to be held just as accountable or he needs to be unbanned and given the exact same slate as you.

If people were genuinely interested in a fair SARP where people just got along, they'd be confident that Raz would get banned. Instead, you have a harsh fear of the idea of him coming back. If he harasses you, can't you just report him and he'd get banned? That's what happened this time, right? So clearly it worked... and if we're making the system better it should work two-fold.

Why can people not treat others equally or trust that Wes will defend them? Wes clearly did it this time, despite the fact he should never have been forced to choose when you all packed your bags and made it clear it was your way or you'd be leaving.

Edit: And I want to point out, that while sympathy is great... fairness to everyone should matter more. So if we're going to be sympathetic, you can be fair in that sympathy. Otherwise, you need to discard morals from the table. Judges might hate their ruling, but in almost every case I've seen where both sides are sympathetic, they will still uphold the law (including my own custody battles back when I was young). Why?

Because people deserve justice.

No Ira, what's making things worse is you even speaking here. And making a name list of offenders is something for another thread, but if you want to know what you did, mainly you've instigated drama with your quipping, that's something you did even before Asteria. You've also bandwagoned with people to apply pressure on things, that's harassment. You've also defended people for actions that are in violations of the rules. You're so frustrating oblivious about this that I can only imagine that you think you're being sneaky and 'staying within the rules' while you do this stuff.

If you were on any other site you'd have been banned, you were even banned from here in the first place, but allowed back in a fashion that most places would not have allowed. For someone who's already used up their second chance you are rather bold and brazen with your behavior.

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Back to things that matter.

Quite frankly up until yesterday the vast majority of any 'enforcement' done was simply for appearances. This is why I steer clear of chat, and never request to be Mod or NTSE, and why I stopped from making my own faction. Because it's disgusting to watch this lack of enforcement. I've tried to ignore it constantly and just do my own thing, then something happens, and people I know leave, I think "Maybe it's about time I leave" but someone comes with potential, and I decide "Maybe it's worth staying" but then the cycle repeats. I've only been here a few years but it seems like I've seen this same mess a thousand times. I try my best to avoid directly accusing anyone, but in turn I shout powerfully for fixing the actual issues. But despite how this incident in essence stems from the -same- problem with the site as what was a catalyst in the IRC related incident, improper moderation, nothing has really changed.

This was old before I even joined, it had mold in the IRC incident, and at this point it's practically decomposed. But yet here we are, still wondering if maybe we should throw it out. I could keep the metaphor going for ages, but I fear I'd lose people, so simply put;

@Wes this site will likely survive whether you do nothing or not. However, unless you create rules and a system that can actually protect it's members from each other, the survival of the site will be a constant cycle of people showing up because they heard how great the place is, pouring their heart in, clashing, getting tired that moderation doesn't happen, and leaving when the stress is too much. I'm pretty sure even you have noticed the large chunk of people who have left the site unhappy. Not because they ran out of free time, or because they grew out of SARP, no there's a huge group that have left because of someone else's behavior, or moderation issues. I'm not sure how this has continued so long without ever being seriously handled.

Constitutional Republic time?

Arieg said:

Constitutional Republic time?

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This statement alone is insulting when you consider the fact a poll was made that only tied because of Wes and a lack of members who could get online to post.

And when you consider that you've eliminated "choice". It's either Asteria or someone who has little experience or desire to stand up against the behavior its leadership has gotten away with. There's no vote to be had.

The rules need equal enforcement and the problem members need to be trimmed. Then we can talk about a SARP "for the people and by the people". Until then, it's just an empty ideal of "representation" since you drove so many people away who would have been just as likely voted. I mean, it seems to be a running trend that people throw-out the polls when they seem to be losing. I don't find that to be a coincidence.

Syaoran said:

No Ira, what's making things worse is you even speaking here. And making a name list of offenders is something for another thread, but if you want to know what you did, mainly you've instigated drama with your quipping, that's something you did even before Asteria. You've also bandwagoned with people to apply pressure on things, that's harassment. You've also defended people for actions that are in violations of the rules. You're so frustrating oblivious about this that I can only imagine that you think you're being sneaky and 'staying within the rules' while you do this stuff.

If you were on any other site you'd have been banned, you were even banned from here in the first place, but allowed back in a fashion that most places would not have allowed. For someone who's already used up their second chance you are rather bold and brazen with your behavior.

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Back to things that matter.

Quite frankly up until yesterday the vast majority of any 'enforcement' done was simply for appearances. This is why I steer clear of chat, and never request to be Mod or NTSE, and why I stopped from making my own faction. Because it's disgusting to watch this lack of enforcement. I've tried to ignore it constantly and just do my own thing, then something happens, and people I know leave, I think "Maybe it's about time I leave" but someone comes with potential, and I decide "Maybe it's worth staying" but then the cycle repeats. I've only been here a few years but it seems like I've seen this same mess a thousand times. I try my best to avoid directly accusing anyone, but in turn I shout powerfully for fixing the actual issues. But despite how this incident in essence stems from the -same- problem with the site as what was a catalyst in the IRC related incident, improper moderation, nothing has really changed.

This was old before I even joined, it had mold in the IRC incident, and at this point it's practically decomposed. But yet here we are, still wondering if maybe we should throw it out. I could keep the metaphor going for ages, but I fear I'd lose people, so simply put;

@Wes this site will likely survive whether you do nothing or not. However, unless you create rules and a system that can actually protect it's members from each other, the survival of the site will be a constant cycle of people showing up because they heard how great the place is, pouring their heart in, clashing, getting tired that moderation doesn't happen, and leaving when the stress is too much. I'm pretty sure even you have noticed the large chunk of people who have left the site unhappy. Not because they ran out of free time, or because they grew out of SARP, no there's a huge group that have left because of someone else's behavior, or moderation issues. I'm not sure how this has continued so long without ever being seriously handled.

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I am on other sites and I’m haven’t been banned.

There is very much a difference between reaction.

No, speaking for my self does not make it worse. Challenging a view is not wrong or incorrect.

Sorry I bit back. I didn’t want to. It is what I do when I’m constantly attacked.

And if you make your names list, there is a long record for multiple on this site of reports of us begging the site admins to help us. Things got bad when that clearly was not going to happen.