SARP political theory time:

[Locked_0ut]

I'm not doing anything else with my degree so might as well apply it to SARP.


Soul Transfers (clones, robot armies, etc) actually increase the severity of wars. Basically, since you can't just cause the enemy enough pain on the battlefield or get the home front upset about lost loved ones to the point that they have to cave, you're more likely to push toward total war and just smash your industrial capacity against each other. Troops are just more industrial capacity and losses don't always incur the opportunity cost of lost future productivity. To win you're now encouraged to destroy the sources of their troops leading to larger, more devastating strikes into enemy territory.

Basically forcing strategic bombing, which has mixed results due to heavy industry being generally easy to repair and morale generally being increased by air campaigns. This means that strategists would go for the total destruction of these assets (Strategic Aether bombs and the like) Or attempt to render entire planets inhospitable.

In a similar real-world example, a lot of nuclear theorists believe that anti-ballistic missile defense systems actually make nuclear war more likely because an adversary would feel their second strike capability is being degraded and build more or more advanced weapons to counter. Conversely, the country with the defenses might feel emboldened to strike their adversary because they don't have as much to fear from a second strike.

 

[Yuuki]

I think the first few points have been demonstrated when Yamatai has been invaded

 

[Locked_0ut]

I think the first few points have been demonstrated when Yamatai has been invaded

I was thinking about Nataria but yah Yamatai too. Gotta go for the knockout blows

 

[Yuuki]

The thing about huge space empires with FTL travel is knockout blows are the only thing you got.

 

[Soban]

Also Glimmergold...

 

[Locked_0ut]

I'd say it depends on what you're fighting over and why. You'd get really into theories of limited escalation. Can't see two star nations immediately jumping to knock out blows over a border dispute. (Gotta do the india china thing and make sure people only bring bonking sticks)
If the war is inherently an existential issue then yeah I can see that. But sometimes if say, I want X system, I might be willing to go far enough to take and try to hold those systems but not really planning on completely destroying my opponent. That said, it probably will escalate to that point as the enemy funnels more troops in to defend that planet and I decide I need to stem their ability to do so

 

[Locked_0ut]

Also Glimmergold...

Yeah that reads as smashing industrial capacity together to see who wins (read a bit more and yeah also knock out blow)

 

[Wes]

Yamatai also increasingly leverages what you're talking about by hiding seeds of itself around the galaxy, so that it might be able to "rebound" from near-total destruction using soul-transfer tech and cloning. For example the Star Army's secret "Bastion" bases are designed for this. The most obvious example of ST-based resiliency is that unless you kill ALL of the Nekovalkyrja, the last Nekovalkyrja could still start birthing new Nekovalkyrja. This is the same for the Rixxikor, who have infested much of the galaxy because no matter how many die, the rest rapidly make replacements, and the replacements have genetic memories (kind of a built-in ST) so they're quickly ready to function in Rixxikor...uh..."society." On the other hand these do give SARP that kind of video game feel where you can focus on your K/D ratio and fun rather than worrying about dying or running out of stuff to shoot.

 

[Andrew]

I think the landscape of what SARP is has begun an evolution. The steps we're about to take outside of the Kikyo Sector are going to open up encounters with all kinds of new species, and new nations. Some may even be equal to Yamatai. We've kept to the Kikyo Sector for the most part, where the now almost cramped region has had to deal with certain limits. We've heavily explored known space, and even if there are some untouched Kikyo destinations left they are a minority and not likely to hold any major factions beyond what we know. In agreement with Wes's video game reference, I consider what is to come with the addition of expansion packs which really outside of some secret trans-universal operations have been limited until now.

I think Yamatai's resilience is fascinating, the Kuvexians offered a very financially driven war and Yamatai adapted and responded. In addition to the seeds Wes mentioned, Yamatai's ability to adapt to new scenarios and strategies also plays a big role in its dominance in the sector. The Kuvexians were in a completely different situation than the SMX/NMX before that. Yamatai also has the ability to welcome friendly parties too which we see with the Arrival of the Norians. It showed that Yamatai has the ability to adapt on a social level and shows a willingness to add to its diversity, despite some who inadvertently focus on the past sins of some factions I think this is overlooked a lot. Yamatai as an entity is willing to open itself to other nations, and offer protection but also benefit from areas that the other party might be more knowledgeable in.

Anyway, I think it's a bit more than industrial capacity clashing. It is a combination of industrial and social capacity that makes Yamatai successful in what it is. Perhaps what also keeps it ahead of some other factions. SARP is like an MMORPG that has a healthy balance between combat and life skills.

 

[Locked_0ut]

I think you're kinda missing my point. This isn't about Yamatai as much as a broad observation about near-peer warfare when casualties are minimally impactful. Brain spiders for the Neps also fall into this. So would anybody with a fully cloned or robotic army. This isn't even me saying "Move from ST" because all of these things seem like common paths for any star empire with the tech and industry to do so will barring cultural hang-ups.


Wes's point about resilience actually reinforces what I'm saying. A new capital ship can be built in a month. Takes about the same time for a clone to be battle ready. Takes longer for officers to be ready so preserve your officer corps (or vat train officers) and you (Anybody not just Yamatai) can absorb casualties to a degree that depends on your own industrial capacity without a single flag getting sent home to a widow.


This really isn't me trying to point out some secret weakness with Yamatai, a flaw with the universe, or something, just looking a this from the perspective of an in-universe political scientist. Mostly just saying hey, because of X, Y is the case. With military hardware and personnel being incredibly replaceable wars are necessarily more destructive. That's it that's the observation.

 

[Fred]

Mmm. My perception of mental backups in Yamatai is not universal. I don't have the impression, based on Yamatai meritocracy, that everyone is entitled to mental backups, and especially not all the time. The average newborn nekovalkyrja probably shouldn't expect a backup just out of training before her first assignment. Same for someone whom isn't a proven veteran/officer/somesuch. Civilians probably need to stand out to a degree to be able to be eligible to priviledges such as 'my body specs back when I turned 30', and "I'm 34, my last backup was back when I was 30." Even if you do get access to it, you probably don't all the time

Plotships, as I perceive them, often have more discretionary powers to mental backup/soul transfer. In the case of my plotship, I've encouraged the idea that falling in the line of duty will happen, but you can bounce back... so long as the ship (and its medical facilities) are intact. The consequence of death being loss of memory and the fear of losing your current self remains there... but in war you often fight more for your military family/comrades than you do for the flag, so this doubles the encouragement of the plotship needing to be protected to protect the 'family'.

In that context: You may be someone high-placed in Yamatai's miltiary industry and have some perks making it possible to restore the son you lost to war, but maybe he died at 24, all his recent backups were on the ship, which leaves you with the one you made of him before military service at 18. He gets to revive in a world 6 years ahead of himself, which is room for some awkward. Does he return to the military and start over? Does his family let him?

There's probably an issue if the hospital you make your backup in gets bombed as well. If Yui's NH-23 feature of being saved across PANTHEON is so special, that probably means not much of anyone is saved 'on the cloud' unless they are very, very special.

So, Yamatai has technology that permits revival, but it comes with operational limitations.

 

[Locked_0ut]

I do like that from a story telling perspective. It does make it rarer and makes losses more common.

 

[Alex Hart]

Mmm. My perception of mental backups in Yamatai is not universal. I don't have the impression, based on Yamatai meritocracy, that everyone is entitled to mental backups, and especially not all the time. The average newborn nekovalkyrja probably shouldn't expect a backup just out of training before her first assignment. Same for someone whom isn't a proven veteran/officer/somesuch. Civilians probably need to stand out to a degree to be able to be eligible to priviledges such as 'my body specs back when I turned 30', and "I'm 34, my last backup was back when I was 30." Even if you do get access to it, you probably don't all the time

I really like this version of things, it makes it a lot more interesting and leaves room for wars to actually have long-term consequences and loss of life, albeit in a way that doesn't threaten most players with losing their characters.

As to the original topic of the thread, I find most of Locke's observations to be fairly astute, and I think the point he makes about officer taking longer to train than the vessels they command might take to make is interesting. I think that this might lead to a situation where it's preferable to field a "light" navy consisting of relatively few capital vessels that require officers with a lot of experience to command and many light vessels whose captains are, to put it crudely, more expendable in the event that whatever method of escaping permanent death doesn't work.

 

[Locked_0ut]

I really like this version of things, it makes it a lot more interesting and leaves room for wars to actually have long-term consequences and loss of life, albeit in a way that doesn't threaten most players with losing their characters.

Yeah without it basically the best way to end a war is planetary bombardment of any industrial center. And even then that only does so much

 

[Soban]

Everyone is able to legally back up their mind and control the back up of it per the constitution.

My impression is that getting a back up is basic medical care.

 

[Locked_0ut]

Everyone is able to legally back up their mind and control the back up of it per the constitution.

My impression is that getting a back up is basic medical care.

This is the logic I was operating under which would lead to the total war situations.

 

[Andrew]

I'd imagine that backups of "actually important" figures in Yamatai's government and military leadership would have backups stored in places like Nemesis Bastion like Wes suggested. Though with these sites being so remote or hidden it makes you wonder how up-to-date those backups are that would be restored under this theoretical situation of total war. I could only imagine that after the urgency of the situation passed that there would be personal consequences to having been restored from an update with a gap in the time between backup and restoration. The experience of a single day or even a week can change a person or well at least leave a mark on what makes them who they are, so I'd imagine there is a psychological consequence that would happen at least from a mental health perspective. Of course, we kind of have to assume that there is some kind of conditioning or preparation for these individuals that would maybe make the impact of that missing time less detrimental. So while Yamatai has permitted revival as Fred said it comes with limitations, but it also may come with consequences that are lasting. Also the scenario of when someone is assumed lost, restored from a backup, but that previous version of them is recovered at a later date.

Yamatai experienced the very scenario of ships to crew without the hands of experience to truly command them during many of its wars. It happened during the Mishhu War and then again during the Kuvexian War. I remember the plot emphasis we put on the difficulty of bringing a full crew to the newly built Tokyo which emptied training facilities at Fort Tokyo and other places just to bring bodies into service. I think the fact it still means something to be a skilled and well-trained individual brings a cool situation in the setting. When to a glance it looks like Yamatai has overcome death, but it will never overcome the limitations of experience and the value that a well-trained, operationally functional military officer or flag officer can bring to the table.

 

[Locked_0ut]

Key figures probably get regular backups and It's probably SOP in high readiness conditions to update them.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

I like the way Fred described it and its simular for nep. Brainspiders are only for the SMDIoN or. likely, very important individuals. People die and stay dead in Nepleslia and even those with brainspiders can, with the exception of PCs prob be treated as being put to the rear line or discharged because unlike ST backups you arent recalling anything but cloning a new body and the hopefully salvageable brain spider with the phantom memories of its death.

Your marine or sailor survives. But in all likelihood now has PTSD and may not be capable anymore so you've at best revived them due to compassion and humanity more than expecting a renewable fighting force.

The culture in the Kikyo Sector is also different from what we experience and can understand. For at least every single moment of their lives Yamatai and often Nepleslia as examples have been at constant war (not with each other, I mean in general) and it's part of their cultures and mindset. Nobody balked in yamatai about destroying planets because their *atomic bomb* event happened in the Elysian wars or even earlier and it became commonplace after the plague to have such events be desensitized for them to the point it went from a rare and horrible event into the price of their survival and became necessary the same way it became necessary to mass-clone disposable soldiers (neko) with no rights and throw them at enemies like the mishu post-plague when it was safer to protect you existing population by doing so before they actually got a lot of the rights they have now.

I also dont think conflict between star nations outside of extreme events like the mishu and kuvexian conflicts are uncommon. Yamatai and Nepleslia even friendly as they are to one another would be having border disputes and international incidents that cost the occasional ship and some men constantly and it just turns into never more than the casual drinking conversations between their admirals when they meet to drag monthly concessions out of one another over a pint and complain.

 

[Fred]

Everyone is able to legally back up their mind and control the back up of it per the constitution.

My impression is that getting a back up is basic medical care.

Absolutely.

However, there are only so many Mental backup devices, medical practioners skilled/authorized (the latter probably being as important, if not more) to handle such backups, and hemosynthetic tanks that can be dedicated to renewing new bodies, healing up people, platforms for medical advancements, and the making of new nekovalkyrja. And then, there's the storage space for said backups, which is enormous.

Nothing that doesn't look too daunting at first glance, but then consider that the few yamataian megalopolises that are around have billions of inhabitants. Justaposed with the colony worlds beyond central Yamatai that are likely more in the hundred-thousands that rely on less robust infrastructure. And then the red tape required for the security of your backup.

Yes, basic healthcare, but... if you're a civilian, you're unlikely to walk into a clinic on a whim to get your backup. You'd usually take an appointment with said Doctor, whom likely has hundreds of other patients on his docket for the week for various reasons. So, what are the odds that a drugstore clerk actually gets his backups every decade? In the event of your passing, will you get revived right away, or will you be in queue? If nothing is pressing, the drugstore clerk run over by a car might end up being revived never/or a couple of years later unless some extraneous factor makes him more of a priority: failing business in his absence, she was a nursing mother, parents with greater social standing petitioned for more priority.

If you get more, it's likely obtained through having much more clout with the Prestige system, or privately having more funds to motivate why your backup has to happen before your next business trip, with insurance of being respawned within the month if something happens (and being sufficiently tracked so that your death is noticed and acted upon even if offworld).

Yamatai is a meritocracy, but there's only so much goodwill to go around. It promises immortality, but doesn't promise to make it 100% convenient. What Yamatai wants to promote is the outstanding: if you're involved, if you better your environment and your community, if you work to surpass yourself... then you're worth keeping around. Which, if you think about it, makes sense: it motivates growth rather than stagnation. The prestige system doesn't have much use for loafers being loafers for perpetuity. Then they'd be a constant drain on resources, contribute little in return, and would take space a new life could take to possibly achieve more potential.

If Yamatai's populace is like a garden, I'm sure those with oversight have gentle ways of 'pruning' its weeds.