Rizzo — Today at 7:13 PM
wiki.stararmy.com
Can anyone tell me how big this wing pack is?
And what is it shooting? It describes a flickering purple beam. Is that a laser?
Aether is pinkish white
Maybe a phased energy pulse?
iaincarter — Today at 7:17 PM
drone is armed with a rapid-fire projected energy cannon
wiki.stararmy.com
Rizzo — Today at 7:18 PM
Yeah... What IS that?
raz — Today at 7:18 PM
Space lazers
iaincarter — Today at 7:19 PM
wiki.stararmy.com
raz — Today at 7:19 PM
I've always imagined it to be incompatible with the M2-4's Turbo Aether Plasma wings because they're both a type of wing pack but it's up to the GM thus far. Sunny D most recently used the equipment in a Kaiyo mission:
RP: YSS Kaiyō - Mission 28: Akuma
I do not think Ame held the character to "no TAP drives" but it doesn't make sense to me based on where hardpoints are that both could fit.
Rizzo — Today at 7:22 PM
I agree. The many wings would seem to collide. Then again the wings fold down. Maybe that's what she did?
Rizzo — Today at 7:24 PM
I guess a really big NSP is a good answer.
iaincarter — Today at 7:24 PM
Based on the stat blocks, that seems to track
Rizzo — Today at 7:25 PM
Ooh. It has an approval page. Might have more info
Fred made it so I'm sure it's been thought through
raz — Today at 7:28 PM
It's obviously a little more powerful than an NSP. Probably tier 5.
Rizzo — Today at 7:30 PM
Yeah, that's what I was thinking. They're not very big from what I'm seeing. I thought they would be big but they appear to override the mounting PA's base speed
So I guess they have powerful engines
Pushes speed to .4
It give the impression that these wings inspired the M2-4 wings
raz — Today at 7:39 PM
I mean theoretically, they could simply convert to tier 7 for the heavy mode (because the auto conversion is already there) because each drone is bigger than an NSB. It has like 4 drone rifles. I think it technically slows you down, too, when the weapons are detached.
Rizzo — Today at 7:43 PM
If the Aether pulse cannon is doing T7 in heavy mode this pack would be the equivalent of having of them AND no mention of a range limitation. It would make the APC irrelevant
Not to mention the drones appear to not shoot aether, are probably the same size as the APC but also have propulsion systems. T6 heavy would make the most sense to me AND there are 4 of them. That's technically T7 equivalent
raz — Today at 7:46 PM
I know he is busy, but maybe
@Sunny D can give you an idea of what he thought the wing pack would do when he sought it out for his loadout.
Rizzo — Today at 7:47 PM
Do you know what timezone Fred is in? I'd hate to wake him up.
I'd like to know what he was making when he submitted the Sylph.
raz — Today at 7:49 PM
FYI volume of fire doesn't combine to make bigger tiers. If you shot a billion NSPs they wouldn't add up, as Wes suggested in the NSB update thread. Like an automatic gun that does "negligible" damage on the scale isn't going to eventually reach a higher tier's worth of damage against a target that outlcasses it.
Rizzo — Today at 7:51 PM
True, but if a T5 shield can take 2 T5 shots the current concept would kill that medium PA outright in 1 salvo
A T9 would do the same plus a crater
raz — Today at 7:52 PM
Maybe, if that's what the GM wants. But DRv3 did away with any sort of hitpoints system. As I'm sure Fred can confirm, v3 was created as a guideline for GMs to generally describe damage rather than a hard-and-fast system that has directly calculable outcomes.
Rizzo — Today at 7:54 PM
True to an extent. Revisiting the example, the first 2 shots would pop the shield, the next 2 would each deal "potentially lethal" damage. Naturally, the GM would consider armor resistances and where the shot landed, but if that doesn't work... that's full auto
The rain will not be nice
raz — Today at 8:00 PM
Version 3, often called “SADRv3” or just “v3”, was proposed to fix the scaling problem between power armor and mecha (among other issues), and introduced an HP-less solution that would work better with a roleplayed narrative and reduce the tabletop-style number crunching.
Version 3 looks at this from the standpoint of a weapon's purpose. Players will see many weapons listing their purpose in the SARPwiki, going from light anti-personnel to heavy anti-capital ship.
The system's base assumption is that a light anti-starship weapon is meant to shoot down “light starships.” There's also a matter of scale: if a player shoots the same weapon at something smaller than a starship, it'll likely be far more ruinous. Against a larger starship, it'll likely do much less significant damage.
The current system essentially and by design lets you know if something gets overwhelmed and destroyed in one shot. Outside of that, it only really strives to inform players and GMs what non-incapacitating damage may look like. So a target can potentially take equal or below damage on the "Attacks" scale indefinitely because immediate lethality only starts at "1 above 'quite' lethal."
iaincarter — Today at 8:01 PM
Ah, yon olde anime staple of scratching the paintwork and leaving blast marks across armour panels
raz — Today at 8:01 PM
Also from the article:
"If the gap becomes too wide in disfavor of the weapon, it won't do much of anything; too wide, and the weapon will cause overkill."
All it does is tell the GM about overkill or what non-lethal damage looks like, essentially.
This is also important:
Keep that in mind as you read this article. Be it weapons, protective means or various vehicles, each article usually has a wealth of information to offer. SADRv3 is meant to add scale and perspective to those articles, but it does not demand — that is up to the narrative between Game Masters and the players in their care.
Rizzo — Today at 8:04 PM
Are you saying the ABSR cannot kill medium PA?
raz — Today at 8:08 PM
Let's see. At "rapid pulse" an ASBR is "equal" tier 4 so "potentially lethal." So there is no narrative guarantee that a single shot nor any accumulation of shots will achieve a kill. With "beam" mode it is 1 above "quite lethal," which tells me that the shot would likely cause death eventually if left untreated. "Saber" mode is 2 above and "highly destructive," so thus will maim its target and be lethal if left untreated. An ASBR never achieves 3 above, "assuredly lethal," nor 4 above "total annihilation." So of course it can kill a medium PA, but it isn't guaranteed to one-shot a medium PA (though it can if the GM wants that).
As the article says, the DR informs "scale and perspective" of damage.
Rizzo — Today at 8:12 PM
I see what you mean then. You're saying they die, GM permitting.
raz — Today at 8:13 PM
Yes. But the GM can also fairly reason that they don't die at all and are lucky enough to escape any damage at equal tier calculation or below. It's only "potentially" lethal, after all.
Rizzo — Today at 8:15 PM
Of course, that makes sense. I was talking strictly from a mechanical aspect
raz — Today at 8:16 PM
Especially because there are no hit points. A target is either damaged to a varying degree or it dies. DRv3, as quoted above, simply seeks to provide perspective. There's no mechanicial interaction or "RPG crunch." Though GMs can take it that far if they wish, and players in their plots participate on that consent.
Ametheliana — Today at 8:19 PM
Also, the lethality is to the equipment and not necessarily the wearer. So if it's potentially lethal the mindy could be out of commission, but the person inside is okay for now.
raz — Today at 8:20 PM
I've never thought about it like that but it's kind of true. A ship getting shot with something that puts it out of action doesn't necessarily mean the crew dies. They can run to the escape pods.
Rizzo — Today at 8:20 PM
That's how tanks are still relevent. Penned the armor but missed the crew
raz — Today at 8:21 PM
Unless we've eliminated spalling entirely, I feel like the crew usually dies. Just based on real world examples.
Rizzo — Today at 8:21 PM
I think The Expanse shows how you can survives rounds penning a ship too
Rizzo — Today at 8:21 PM
How likely is the crew to wear PA?
raz — Today at 8:22 PM
Yeah those are railguns, which is cool. Tho idk if it's accurate or just sci-fi magic.
raz — Today at 8:22 PM
Unlikely.
Vehicle Operators wear the Star Army Field Uniform, Type 31.
wiki.stararmy.com
But I mean. If there's room inside.
Rizzo — Today at 8:25 PM
The tank La Pro is bringing was modded to accept them in Mindys but its going to be described as very cramped
raz — Today at 8:26 PM
That's cool. I think the page really only states what the standard is, not what some super esoteric non-Rikugun tank division mission is doing.
Rizzo — Today at 8:28 PM
It's meant to get them to their objective. It might go nuclear at the enemy gate
Sunny D — Today at 8:45 PM
Boost acceleration, speed and manoeuvrability when Drones are attached to hard points.
Drones could independently target, switch fire to give continuous fire on a target while the other drones recharged, or concentrate fire.
Drones could also fire in pulse mode or beam mode
If you read the wiki a certain way you could also argue it would boost CFS. It was designed for a previous generation Mindy which didn't have CFS. Personally I think it's fine without it.
That what you wanted?
raz — Today at 8:51 PM
That's cool, thanks. Rizzo is thinking about the damage and revising it. I was just wondering what you, as a user, thought on that front. Was the stated Tier 7/8 relevant to you at all? Like to the point you'd not have chosen it in favor of something else?
Sunny D — Today at 8:57 PM
At the end of the day its GM's choice how effective it is.
7 in independent mode, 8 if you're concentrating fire maybe?
Rizzo — Today at 8:57 PM
8 is a tank's primary cannon
wiki.stararmy.com
wiki.stararmy.com
Sunny D — Today at 8:59 PM
Ather Carbines are Tier 7
Those are hand held weaponry
well, in power armor
Rizzo — Today at 9:00 PM
lol. Looks like an over tier
Oh wait. That's on a mini mech
raz — Today at 9:01 PM
Size has no impact on a weapon's power, that's just on defense. I just wanted to know if someone who chose the sylph pack as equipment recently thought that the stated damage was relevant when they picked it. Just because people will go for certain weapons based on their capabilities.
Rizzo — Today at 9:02 PM
Size does matter. You're wrong, and let's not get into it here
Sunny D — Today at 9:02 PM
the issue is escalation of threat. There are people like me who see stat blocks and weaknesses as puzzles to be solved, and then you have GMs who need to keep the threats threatening.
Rizzo — Today at 9:03 PM
It's about scale
Sunny D — Today at 9:03 PM
We are natural enemies
Rizzo — Today at 9:04 PM
HOW can you pack the power of a tank's main weapon into a lunchbox? It's called a bomb at that point. not a gun
raz — Today at 9:04 PM
The size of a weapon does not dictate its power. The only place size is mentioned on the article is specifically when it comes to the mass of something for its defensive rating. And Fred even came into this chat and said that small weapons often hurt bigger things.
Rizzo — Today at 9:04 PM
A good point. Players vs. GM
Rizzo — Today at 9:16 PM
Found it. Andrew stated that he would not permit my T8 Cordoba to be approved along with a T12 weapon. The highest he permitted was a T10. I was told elsewhere that the highest we should go is 1 tier above our scale
NTSE has standards for it somewhere
What I have here is multiple items that go together but are connected to the entire FSC lineup. I did a ton of updates to my pages in the form of clarifying explainations, correcting discrepancies in caliber, and making plain new articles! Cordoba Combat Mecha...
stararmy.com
raz — Today at 9:25 PM
He said it's the maximum he is willing to accept. Each article is taken in a void, and isn't relevant for the next article unless the specific reviewer wants to use it as a relevant example. Particularly, nerfing really old things becuase new things are less powerful is kind of strange. But I don't really have a horse in this race; that's why I asked Sunny for what they envisioned the Wing Pack as when they chose it for RP usage. Basically the only dude who has any insight on it at the moment.
Rizzo — Today at 9:30 PM
Again. NOT A NERF. Just matching the new lable to the existing item
raz — Today at 9:33 PM
If something's power level is drastically lowered after years then it's a nerf, even if the conversion was automatically applied and then left to stand for too long. People read what's there (the wiki is canon, remember?) and then choose their loadout based on that. Again, I don't care where this weapon lands personally but ya can't say it's not a nerf to the people who did use it.
Rizzo — Today at 9:39 PM
Actually, I can, and I'm going to.
I'm going to be doing a presentation on DRv3 in a couple weeks. It's never been a nerf. We are applying the correct damage labels based on CURRENT DR standards. Not based on 10 second intervals. PER SHOT, not 10 seconds. 1 shot, not 100.
Yuuki — Today at 9:42 PM
that significantly buffs the Taihō mass driver when it's a rapid fire model, ehehe
or the minimissile pods ooo
oh man
lol
i sort of just like, handwaved it ngl
for the mass driver
i wasn't even thinking like that hehehe
ultra high rate rapid fire tier 2 pdw
raz — Today at 9:43 PM
The Black Spiral Positron Rifle is auto converted to Tier 8/9. Which literally matches what the textual description says. Based. Based I tell you.
boasting enough power to easily shear through durandium plating and being capable of breaching even the powerful forearm shielding of the Ke-M2-2D "Mindy II" Power Armor or larger vessels
Yuuki — Today at 9:45 PM
the really excellent urs in that are from the wiki article quote so they're not really valid targets D:
raz — Today at 9:45 PM
haha
Rizzo — Today at 9:46 PM
That sounds like Tier 6
raz — Today at 9:47 PM
Based on that text, the rifle should be 4 or 5 above on the scale, guaranteeing "total annihilation" to a Tier 4 power armor and capable of hurting ships. And it's not the size of a tank cannon. That's why I trust the auto conversions, because they always line up with established RP.
Soban — Today at 9:47 PM
yhea I wouldn't put it more than one or two above a mindy or the "or larger" completely swallows the mindy bit.
Rizzo — Today at 9:47 PM
Fred doesn't trust the auto conversions!
Why would you?
Soban — Today at 9:48 PM
remember on tier is potentially leathal
getting hit by an on tier is something that could and perhaps should kill you
Sunny D — Today at 9:49 PM
At the end of the day, its all up to the GM
raz — Today at 9:49 PM
I'm just not a fan of nerfing Yamatai's oldest tech. Go ahead and make your new tech bad, that's fine, but I can go seek out RP or wiki text that entirely justifies every auto conversion.
Soban — Today at 9:49 PM
an on tier weapon is something that is designed with the express purpose of killing that tier of thing
Rizzo — Today at 9:52 PM
Per shot
That's the part Raz isn't grasping
raz — Today at 9:53 PM
I already explained all of that above, quite succinctly and giving references from the article.
Rizzo — Today at 9:53 PM
Yeah, but no
And that's old tech. The new Mindy is a lot tougher than the 2D
It's doing T9 in 10 seconds? That's T6 per shot
Heck, T4 shears through durandium
raz — Today at 9:56 PM
The prose on the Positron Rifle describes each shot, not a time period.
Soban — Today at 9:56 PM
DRv3 is per attack, which varies between weapons
Rizzo — Today at 9:56 PM
Would you endorse a T15 Mindy pistol?
Soban — Today at 9:56 PM
when you make an attack with a weapon what is it designed to destroy?
Ametheliana — Today at 9:58 PM
"an infantryman can carry an anti-mecha bazooka to take down tanks, and strike craft can equip anti-starship torpedoes to take down bigger prey."
raz — Today at 9:58 PM
I just don't think these arguments are well informed. Each and every time I've said something about the DRv3 system the information has been confirmed, as I participated in the lengthy discussion to approve it so know facets of it that I do not even agree with. That's all.
raz — Today at 9:59 PM
I mean, sure. But there's no thread about it. The topic was presented here as a question by Rizzo.
Rizzo — Today at 10:00 PM
Theres an easy answer... Because they don't support your arguement
raz — Today at 10:00 PM
But more to the point: There's already a lengthy thread on DRv3 from when it was approved. With Fred's designer commentary.
raz — Today at 10:01 PM
I mean, Fred's come in and simply confirmed what I said. So think whatever you want.
