Should the Star Army Allow Fleets to Have Their Own Visual Identities?

[Wes]

This came up in Discord and I figured I'd ask:

Do you think that the Star Army should let each fleet have its own visual identity in terms of:

• Ship models
• Ship exterior color scheme/livery
• Daily Uniforms
• Maybe even some types of equipment or power armors

This is in the context of: Maybe Yamatai should be allowing each of its constituent cultures a better way to shine. It's good for the cultures and honestly I think it's good for Yamatai too to be more multicolored and multi-cultured. So for instance maybe we have a fleet that emphasizes the Sepera'Shan, the Norians, or the Nepleslians of Yamatai (e.g. Reds, Blues) and their aesthetic is different to the First Fleet or Second Fleet, which are the traditional Nekovalkyrja-heavy fleets.

What do you think?

 

[Yuuki]

So like the UOCPF 1XF and 5XF?

 

[Yuuki]

But seriously I mean, Nepleslia had distinctive stuff pre-independence. Elysia always has as well.
In The Orville, even though the PU has their own ships, each constituent does, justs like in Star Trek, even though the UFP has their standard ships, there's still distinct Vulcan, Tellurites had their own, etc.

Also we need to do something about Phods. They were in the mid-20th century technlogically DECADES ago both IC and OOC, prior to (modern) Yamatai contact. Even though Yamatai withholds a lot, they *have* to have developed since.

 

[Soban]

10th Fleet as well before it's destruction. (10th was the Elysian one). I think there is the lore to support it.

In short, yes.

@Yuuki I suggest starting a thread in the setting discussion that focuses on the Phods, like I have for Separa’Shan.

 

[raz]

Yamatai should be allowing each of its constituent cultures a better way to shine... So for instance maybe we have a fleet that emphasizes [minor imperial species]

It's an idea but I do not think there are physically enough members of any minor species (universally confined to single world sources) to staff any fleet with a majority in order to consolidate an identity around it. Think about real life military numbers in countries with volunteer forces; so-called "professional" militaries made of volunteers are vastly small proportions of the national population.

Put another way: there are billions of Nekovalkyrja, but not so many willing enlistees from minor species planets to displace those Neko soldiers in any given fleet. That's not even to mention that every species is straight-up inferior to Neko as warfighters from a military human resources standpoint. I say this as someone whose main character is a Geshrin and was writing the cool weak underdog soldier being elite type character before it was cool, so please don't come at me with some silly charges of being Neko biased. Individuals may often overcome species limitations for the story, but such exceptions can rarely be applied to their fellows on a mass scale.

Maybe a single auxiliary fleet or organization made up of exclusively minor species would work better. It could have specialized units or task forces within it that each have strong species identities and specializations, and would do so in a way that makes sense after taking into consideration in-character facts/logistics. Like you could have the Phod Auxiliary Chefs corps or the Norian Cold Weather Brigade within that auxiliary organization because there aren't enough of either to fill a full sized fleet.

 

[FrostJaeger]

In my official opinion there’s certainly enough Elysians in the Star Army to fill out a small fleet, provided it doesn’t have too many capital ships or Izanagis in it.

Also a HUGE fan of this idea, as an Elysian-themed Star Army Fleet would likely fulfill the Elysian Self-Defense Force I was planning on (eventually) creating.

 

[Charmaylarg Dufrain]

I picture different colors for things like uniforms and the highlights on ships to differentiate them beyond a patch or a symbol.

Yamatai, however, uses some different colors for its MOS' and occupations tho so dunno if the uniforms would work out. As for equipment I think it should match that as well.

Tho for ship models Im assuming you mean the art. And if so I think that should be ok but also will point out there arent a lot of ships being made these days unless you want to color some of the old models.~

 

[Ametheliana]

I mean, Kaiyo got moved from 1st Expeditionary to just the 1st and the change was unwelcome to me when I had gotten used to just the patch. It took me about two or three years to start getting comms with the updated patch. Telling an artist "but the triangle patch should be this" doesn't always get through to them and they'd keep drawing the first expeditionary fleet patch- I still run into this problem! But also I don't like change! I would hate to get used to a fleet's visual identity just to have it change up if the ship moves fleets or fleets get abolished.

tldr it would be harder with changing visuals

 

[Wes]

It's true that there's a certain real-world art commission cost to having more looks to the Star Army.

 

[Cowboy]

What I picture when I think of Wes' idea is not fleets made up with just a specific race. What I picture is that a fleet might be more heavily officered my a certain species or maybe they are made up of a majority of a certain species which translates that cultures ideas into that fleets identity.

So say you have a snake fleet. It's either heavily officered or has a large majority or snakes in it. The snake philosophy/battle tactics of stealth and ambushes would become ingrained into that fleet to the point of any non snake crew would also adopt that philosophy.

Or say a fleet has more Neplealian born officers. You would probably have a more tackle problems head on mindset which would be adopted by non Nep crew as time went on. I believe this would give you the flavor that Wes is suggesting.

As to colors and what not, the Star Army is generally pretty standardized when it comes to uniforms and colors. However, there are a lot of different type of uniforms and slight additions could be added or unique to one fleet or another that don't interfere with what is standard. For example, one fleet likes stealth so they wear a cloak over their uniform. Or one fleet is really old school and they like to wear the old tri crown hats. Or one fleet is very stuck up and only wear their class A uniforms all the time.

 

[raz]

I just don't think doctrinal identities coming from minor species makes much sense. Fleets have already had identities in the past. The old Ninth Fleet was intel and planetary invasion/"space marines" focused. The Fifth Fleet is all about being the Rikugun. The 2XF under Nashoba and now has always had more starfighters and carriers than other fleets. Why would we suddenly say "actually, these types of strategic or tactical flavorings come from them being a specific species" when the Star Army has always had thematic variations across fleets? It's not like the Separa are better at stealth than the current Star Army equivalents, or that Nepleslian officers are better at aggressive tactics.

there’s certainly enough Elysians in the Star Army to fill out a small fleet, provided it doesn’t have too many capital ships or Izanagis in it.

Right. But that would take the Elysians from across the Star Army and put them in a single force that isn't even a real fleet (more of a flotilla or task force). Some Elysians might not even want to transfer from their standard posting just to fill up a little homogenized force. This type of thing is why I think some kind of auxiliary organization works best because it wouldn't require draining the rest of the Star Army of current soldiers who just happen to be members of a specific species.

 

[Yuuki]

The Prop 117 was about those auxiliaries in large part, and that, in turn, is a large part of why it was so long and convoluted.

 

[demibear]

I like the idea, a large part why I made the FDC and its Fujiko Self Defense Force. Maybe instead of SAoY fleets being unique, perhaps organize them into SARP "national guards" (whatever name they wish to call themselves) with heavy SAoY oversight (something like Prop 117). The Reds could get the numbers (there is a plan to massively increase population size anyways to industrialize and develop), but it will take years of mass cloning that will make Nepleslia likely question Yamatai's sanity, but they no way have the experienced leadership to properly lead a massive fleet.

A lot of the other fleets seem to have a relationship (some heavier than others) with "the little people" like the 7th. Reds don't have any, though I can see a lot of joint exercises with the Rikugun and the 5th by extension.

 

[Lizalopod]

I agree mainly because I feel its kinda important to preserve a little of what makes each species unique, and take advantage of what they offer to SAoY. Tbh, i dont think every fleet needs to be massive too, they can vary in size or hell, just be singular ships. The idea of diversifying SAoY a little more and make it more parallel to something like Orville or the federation sounds pretty cool honestly, instead of everything just being Neko inspired.

 

[Sunny D]

In my official opinion there’s certainly enough Elysians in the Star Army to fill out a small fleet, provided it doesn’t have too many capital ships or Izanagis in it.

Also a HUGE fan of this idea, as an Elysian-themed Star Army Fleet would likely fulfill the Elysian Self-Defense Force I was planning on (eventually) creating.

So if IC the YSE wasn't to worried if Elysians were in the Star Army, this would be fine. If their goal was to prevent an Elysian succession having all the serving Elysians working on their own ships is a terrible idea.

I'm just thinking out loud, don't have a dog in the fight. Its cool to have fleets displaying their races colours, but if the YSE's goal is to keep multiple species under its umbrella then intermingling them is a better idea. If you stick all the military trained birds on one boat it will be a bird echo chamber. Don't say I didn't tell you so when you get surprisingly well trained Bird nationalist fighting for Bird independence from the robot cat girls.

I would get around this by having a portion of each ship being Nekos, with at least one being from... I thought I saw a division of SAINT that was anti sedition, cant remember the name but that one...

 

[demibear]

Would be fairly easy to handle if one is willing to channel "the old Imperial ways" of chucking people out an airlock and deleting their ST backup at the slightest hint of disloyalty. Call it a "So long as you do X, you get a very happy Y but if you don't you get a vastly more painful Z". Can even have a trial (show trial or legit since eyes are "everywhere") if you want to maintain the look.

 

[raz]

chucking people out an airlock and deleting their ST backup at the slightest hint of disloyalty.

I genuinely wished this ever happened, but it never has.

To be honest, since I joined the SARPiverse in 2005, every plotship in existence has existed as "something like Orville or the federation" where the canonically dominant people (Yamataians and Neko/Humans) have been only a small proportion of the crew while minor supporting flavor species try their best to take center stage because they're somehow half of the ship's crew.

 

[Soban]

Raz, that is hilarious and also true. I think it speaks a lot to what we want from SARP. I don’t think we are just Star Trek with Japanese paint. I think we want a setting with a diverse set of species that are working and serving together. To borrow a phrase "Out of Many Cultures, One Empire."

I believe that idea works best when you have very distinct Cultures which have a place where they all mix. The Star Army is where they mix. Diffrent cultures might even have different levels of contribution to the empire. Ranging from "We don't even police ourselves" through "we can defend ourselves and the larger empire can deal with other things" and "we can help protect the systems around us" to "we can take on a whole front in a war all by ourselves."

I really like the salad metaphor for the Empire. It fuels conflict which is the engine of storytelling.

 

[Yuuki]

I genuinely wished this ever happened, but it never has.

Imagine how much easier of a life Katsuko would have had, lol. Also there would be no Nepleslian faction, heh.

To be honest, since I joined the SARPiverse in 2005, every plotship in existence has existed as "something like Orville or the federation" where the canonically dominant people (Yamataians and Neko/Humans) have been only a small proportion of the crew while minor supporting flavor species try their best to take center stage because they're somehow half of the ship's crew.

It do be true though. If you aren't a Neko you are in the minority. If you are neither a Neko nor a Nepleslian Human, you're in the VAST minority. Both non Neko/Human and male characters in general are grossly overrepresented among player characters.

 

[Rizzo]

I’m not a fan of this from a fleet composition style as well as from a cultural perspective.

Fleet Composition Reasoning:
Ships have varying strengths and weaknesses. Additionally, war is naturally chaotic. Fleets should be built around certain mission requirements, the right ships for the needs of the missions the fleet is running.

Cultural Reasoning:
This could easily slide too close to a “segregation” of cultures and open a real opportunity for a Yamataian Civil War or Secession. It’s generally bad to divide people into groups.
If you are a citizen of Yamatai, you’re Yamataian.
If you’re a soldier of Yamatai, you’re Yamataian.
It doesn’t matter where you’re from or what you look like, you’re just Yamataian.