Approved Submission Starship Combat Guide Update

@Wes I've update the Engagement Range Guidelines section to read...

The Engagement Range Guidelines section said:

| 0.500 | 150,000 | This is the furthest any ship can reliably hit one another most of the time with STL missiles.((
“Missiles” in this instance is referring to any missile-based weapon system, such as mini-missiles, missiles, rockets, torpedoes, and so on.))

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...and I've revised the FTL Combat section to read...

The FTL Combat section said:

• Combat while at FTL speeds is not possible in the setting.
• There are no FTL weapons in the setting, apart from FTL torpedoes.(("Torpedo" in this instance is referring to any starship-grade missile-based weapon system, such as missiles, rockets, torpedoes, and so on.))
  • These torpedoes can use FTL to enter an area but must make their attack runs at STL speeds.
  • The closest an FTL torpedo can get to a target before making its attack run is 150,000 kilometers (~0.5 light-seconds or ~93,000 miles).
  • FTL torpedoes have STL velocities equivalent to STL torpedoes.
  • FTL torpedoes cannot utilize their FTL drives inside a sun's Hill Sphere.

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Missiles are a guided munition...... they're going to hit at far greater ranges then that.

Arieg said:

Missiles are a guided munition...... they're going to hit at far greater ranges then that.

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You're misinterpreting what I wrote, @Arieg: that's the closest a missile can get before coming out of FTL, not a range limitation - although now that I look at it, the wording is indeed a bit confusing; in order to rectify this, I've updated the Engagement Range Guidelines section to read...

The Engagement Range Guidelines said:

| 3.000 | 900,000 | Maximum engagement range for non-missile starship weapons. Accurate shots are rare. (25% chance to hit)((A few weapons in the setting - such as Aether Shock Arrays - have longer maximum engagement ranges; “gun-based” in this instance is referring to any energy or kinetic weapon in the setting that isn't included in the aforementioned definition of a “missile.”)) |

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0.500 150,000 This is the furthest any ship can reliably hit one another most of the time with STL missiles. ?

Arieg said:

0.500 150,000 This is the furthest any ship can reliably hit one another most of the time with STL missiles. ?

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Ah, that. That's due to what @Wes said in chat (this post of mine in the original thread contains the relevant chat logs) and because of the fact that 150,000 kilometers (0.5 light-seconds) is how far a missile in this setting can travel in one second, similar to how 300,000 kilometers (1 light second) is how far a light-speed weapon in this setting can travel in one second.

The missile's accuracy isn't effected by range due to it being a self-propelled and self guiding projectile.

Arieg said:

The missile's accuracy isn't effected by range due to it being a self-propelled and self guiding projectile.

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True, but the accuracy of its target's point-defense is affected by range. What the guide's basically saying is this, @Arieg:

• At ranges below or equal to 150,000 kilometers, the target ship's point defense systems will most likely not have enough time to lock onto the incoming missile and shoot it down.
• At ranges greater than 150,000 kilometers, the effectiveness of STL missiles rapidly decreases due to the fact that the target's ships point defense systems will most likely have enough time to lock onto the missile and eliminate it.

I would remove any mention of performance or range limitations on missile capabilities due to the effectiveness of point defense being up to the GM since we don't roll dice systems to determine it.

Arieg said:

I would remove any mention of performance or range limitations on missile capabilities due to the effectiveness of point defense being up to the GM...

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This submission is supposed to be a reference page for GMs, @Arieg.

Arieg said:

...since we don't roll dice systems to determine it.

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Where are "dice" or "dice systems" mentioned in this submission, Arieg? You're also incorrect - in some instances, we do roll dice.

My only problem with this is the range. Unless those periods in the Light-Seconds are supposed to be commas, you're trying to make the ships duke it out effectively within a spitting range of each other. While I can probably see this as some sort of fairness guideline so you are not blasted to kingdom come from half a system away, I'd like to make note that this hasn't seemed to be a hindrance before.

You don't have to be within visual eyesight to actually hit the target if you can't help it. The guise of combat, as in this setting especially, is to hit your enemy and kill him before he can kill you. Using the Sharie-Class Battleship's main battery as an example, these have an effective range of 1500 light-seconds (25 light-minutes; 3.00598 au; 449,688,687 km; 279,424,000 miles, math and stuff).

Even for the fairness in combat which is already something that doesn't exist IC, why would you want to make all of the IC range advancements obsolete?

I understand the concept of 'fairness' because in the end this is an RP setting, but I would also like to note I understand trying to hit things a long ways away is like trying to shoot a bullet with a smaller bullet, blindfolded, and riding a horse, though it is possible. The concept of being able to hit on the first salvo is nearly impossible, but there is a reason that ranging shots are made through the opening salvos. You want to be able to hit your opponent in the situation that he cannot hit you. Combat isn't fair, and will always lean with the people with the better technology and training.

As I have stated before, you need to remove the effective range limit on torpedoes/missiles, both in the chart and in the FTL section regarding their FTL approach. GMs should be the ones to determine how close or far away FTL torpedoes begin their STL attack runs for their desired narrative effect. More importantly, the portion in the chart is especially misleading, as it doesn't explain if it's due to point defense systems, or poor propulsion technology.

Unless Wes directly says to change policy, I'm sticking to the current policy.

*****

More importantly, can you merge this thread into the original one here @Wes ? For the record, I do not appreciate Frost attempting to circumvent my authority as NTSE Mod. This could have been taken to PMs with either me or you or both of us at once.

HAMnJAM said:

My only problem with this is the range. Unless those periods in the Light-Seconds are supposed to be commas, you're trying to make the ships duke it out effectively within a spitting range of each other.

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I'm not "trying" to do anything - @Wes already made the range limitation canon on December 18th, 2010 after the majority of SARP voted in favor of it.[/b]

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HAMnJAM said:

While I can probably see this as some sort of fairness guideline so you are not blasted to kingdom come from half a system away, I'd like to make note that this hasn't seemed to be a hindrance before.

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That's because of the fact that the original - not this update, the original Starship Combat Guide with the exact same 900,000 kilometer range limitation as the update - was approved over three years prior to you joining Star Army on April 18th, 2014, Ham.

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HAMnJAM said:

You don't have to be within visual eyesight to actually hit the target if you can't help it. The guise of combat, as in this setting especially, is to hit your enemy and kill him before he can kill you.

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Agreed, which is why - except in instances of PvP - GMs have the final say on things like detection range, detection chance, hit probability, evasive capabilities, and so forth.

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HAMnJAM said:

[...]

Even for the fairness in combat which is already something that doesn't exist IC, why would you want to make all of the IC range advancements obsolete?

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They wouldn't be rendered obsolete, as every gun-based starship weapon in the setting - with the exception of FTL torpedoes and "superweapons" such as Aether Shock Arrays - was included in the original Engagement Range Guidelines, as Wes stated here.

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HAMnJAM said:

[...] You want to be able to hit your opponent in the situation that he cannot hit you. Combat isn't fair, and will always lean with the people with the better technology and training.

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Agreed, which is why (with the exception of PvP) GMs - and not this submission - ultimately have the final say in determining if something hits or misses.

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CadetNewb said:

As I have stated before, you need to remove the effective range limit on torpedoes/missiles, both in the chart and in the FTL section regarding their FTL approach.

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As I have stated two times previously, I will do no such thing @CadetNewb because of the fact that it goes against what Wes said here and here.

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CadetNewb said:

GMs should be the ones to determine how close or far away FTL torpedoes begin their STL attack runs for their desired narrative effect.

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GMs, in my humble opinion, still have quite a bit of narrative freedom in deciding "how close or far way FRL torpedoes begin their attack run[.]"

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CadetNewb said:

More importantly, the portion in the chart is especially misleading, as it doesn't explain if it's due to point defense systems, or poor propulsion technology.

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I've updated the Engagement Range Guidelines section by splitting it into two subsections, Guns and Missiles, which should resolve this issue.

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CadetNewb said:

[...]

For the record, I do not appreciate Frost attempting to circumvent my authority as NTSE Mod. This could have been taken to PMs with either me or you or both of us at once.

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For the record, CadetNewb, I do not appreciate it when a NTSE moderator:

• Accuses me of complain[ing], then refuses to provide any evidence whatsoever when I ask for proof.
• Accuses me of "passive-aggressive behavior", then locks the thread when I ask for proof.
• Replies with this when I ask about the lack of a response.
• Violates the Review Policy by locking the submission thread without rejecting the submission.
• Violates the General Guidelines by (in my personal opinion) not "...keep[ing]..." his (perceived) "...opinion or bias towards the person making the submission...to [him]self and off the technology forum."

I know better than to escalate the situation, and won't rise to that. As a tech mod, I've made my decision and have already made it clear. Since this combat guideline is potentially retconning the canon, I'll defer to Wes to make the final call.

I've updated the Missiles sub-section to read:

The Missiles sub-section said:

^ Light-Seconds ^ Kilometers((Values have been rounded for ease of calculation. 1 light-second = 299,792.458 kilometers.
)) ^ Notes ^
| 0.033 | 10,000 | |
| 0.100 | 30,000 | |
| 0.250 | 75,000 | |
| 0.500 | 150,000 | This is the furthest any ship can reliably hit one another most of the time with a STL missile. |
| 0.750 | 225,000 | |
| 1.000 | 300,000 | Hits are less common at this range due to point-defense, ECM, evasive manuevers, etc. (75% chance to hit)((Per individual missile.)) |
| 1.500 | 450,000 | (50% chance to hit) |
| 2.000 | 600,000 | Maximum engagement range for STL missiles. Missile hits are rare. (25% chance to hit)((Per individual missile.)) |
| 2.500 | 750,000 | |
| 3.000 | 900,000 | |

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CadetNewb said:

I know better than to escalate the situation, and won't rise to that.

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Rise to what, Cadet? I was merely stating the reasons I felt it necessary to create this thread.

CadetNewb said:

As a tech mod, I've made my decision and have already made it clear.

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Not to be rude, but aren't you outside of your "jurisdiction" as an NTSE moderator (congratulations on becoming member of the staff, by the way!), seeing as how this isn't the New Technology and Setting Elements sub-forum?

CadetNewb said:

[...] I'll defer to Wes to make the final call.

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Agreed - would you mind posting a response in this thread as soon as you have the opportunity, @Wes?

Please remove the missile section as it creates a hard limit on the performance of guided weapons.

I think we should probably start from the ground up and ask the community what they want starship combat in Star Army to be like, and make the rules from there.

I would say:

• Energy weapons are the standard in SARP - from NSPs to ship weapons
• Not a lot of railgun use
• Missiles are generally for short-range engagements only due to low speeds.

Uh.. mini and micro missiles may be short range but missiles im general arent.

But railguns are cool :/ Anyway just wondering do torpedoes count as missiles?

Torpedoes are likely in a class all their own. They're generally bigger, and have a larger warhead.

I have a suggestion, rather than discussing the overall "state" of combat in this thread (I have a feeling several people are avoiding it due to either its position, its host, or the... Attitudes within), a new thread should be created by @Wes for discussion of how spaceship combat in SARP should be.