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Rejected Submission [Submission Rules] Armament Limitations

F

FrostJaeger

Chief Parakeet
Banned Member
  • Faction requires art: Nope.
  • Contains unapproved sub-articles? Nope.
  • Contains new art? Nope.
  • Previously submitted? Nope, though it contains elements from this and this.
Well, here you have it, ladies and/or gentlemen. The expanded, fleshed-out, more-thoroughly-explained (no offense @Fred) replacement/re-installment/I don't even know because I typed this up at 4 in the morning for DRv3's weapon limitations.

I'd like to thank @Arbitrated, @META_mahn, @Talarn, and the rest of the SARPChat Discord server for acting as reviewers/moral support/editors/etc. and @Fred for creating the basis of the system in the first place, but, uh, yeah, that's pretty much all I have to say due to being really, really tired at the time of writing.

As before, would @Wes, @Doshii Jun, @Fred, @Ametheliana, and @CadetNewb (plus anyone else who has constructive criticism) mind looking at this thing (or a derivative of it, anyways) one more time?

Also, one other minor request @Wes: Would you lock and/or move the original thread to the "Rejected or Abandoned Submissions" sub-forum, please? In my opinion, this submission kind of, uh, supersedes the older one in terms of purpose and scope.

P.S.: @Zack My apologies for not replying to the 4th Elysian Empire submission in a more timely fashion; I'll be doing so tomorrow - and it's something I'll do my best to be more "on top of" in the future.
 
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N0, Wes, it cannot.

Syaoran is correct. The whole process actually accomodated the presence of weaponry such as what Arieg's submissions seemed to boast. I started it, and it certainly wasn't out of spite. Frost was doubly generous than my own figures.

Did it satisfy Arieg's numbers entirely? No. Sometime it came short by a far cry, but we've already established elsewhere that the proposed fire-power of Arieg's submissions broached on the ridiculously overpowered, system or no system.
 
For @Wes ,

FrostJaeger said:
I'm not scared of "ONE guy who likes to puts lots of missiles on his ships," I'm scared of the fact that one guy, in particular, appears to believe that the ships and technology he designs are the equivalent of modern military seafaring vessels competing against the World War-II era ships and technology everyone else uses. I'm afraid of the implications that this mentality of one-upmanship, that this mindset of "I always having to perfect and one step ahead of everyone else, and to hell with anyone who says otherwise!" has - and I'm afraid of the chaos and unnecessary work that these metagaming views would cause should they be allowed to persist. I'm afraid of the "modernization process" that literally everyone else will have to suffer through because of one guy's deliberate and repeated efforts to introduce overpowered ships and technology into the settting.
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There's more stuff in that post if you want to get the context.

In any case, I think the reason that a lot of the 'non-constructive' criticism is being made is that 47% of the most involved people in the submission process don't want another layer of bureaucracy in the process. At the end of the day, this isn't about the Frost's submission, unfortunately and thus why we're not giving it 'constructive criticism.' I've tried to look through the system objectively, but personally it gives me a headache. Now you want to foist it on them because you don't trust the NTSE mods enough to make decisions themselves? No wonder we're down to just two people.

Personally, I'm willing to go along with whatever the decision is. Personally, I don't think its needed, but I understand why people do. I think this is just drawing attention away from the real problem, like getting more NTSE staff. At least then we could confine our commentary to the specific cases instead of doing something that's effecting the whole site.
 
Rizzo said:
At which point I can offer a solution that would work.

EDIT: Number systems will always be broken by something.
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If you mean you could help the submitter come up with a way to get the ship to work, I don't doubt that you can, but it also adds lots of difficulty to the process, and stress, and puts not only an obstacle for the submissions, but the NTSE would have to learn too. It'd just be too much hassle.

As for something always breaking a system, yes that is true, but with a system when it breaks it's very easy to identify the problem, and 'patch' or if absolutely needed, make a whole new system.

@Acewing13 That literally says nothing showing Frost is trying to sabotage Arieg. What that shows is that he was involved in a whole separate thread about the possibility of a Tech race, and the implications of such. Which a notable portion of people think is a problem but that goes ignored. In other words he's saying this is to help prevent that. Not to stop Areig's submission.

Edit: In fact that is a reply to someone making the accusation that he's doing this out of fear of Arieg's submissions.
 
@Acewing13 Areig's ship is an example of the technology race issue yes. But that doesn't mean that it's designed to specifically take out Arieg's submission. That'd be like saying if someone made a character that was 'impossible' for a faction and then the FM made a wiki page about what is supposed to be in the faction, that the FM is just trying to specifically block that character. No the FM is trying to lay ground work to prevent further problems from coming up after he has been made aware of a problem. That's called being a designer of any kind.

@Rizzo, if you think numbers are the only way people get stressed you're in for a surprise. But learning the numbers on a single wiki page is a lot easier than having to try to learn things like thermodynamics, engineering, rocket science, ballistics, and all of that. I think you might be overlooking how much laymen would have to learn, because it's something you already know. Not every Sci-fi fan actually likes science.

But if you think this system is complex, why not make real suggestions to stream line or simplify it so that it's easier for people, and not just say "Get rid of it"?
 
It is a guideline yes, but it is used to judge submissions. The difference between a rule set and a guideline can simply be that a guideline is built with the expectation that sometimes it wont apply, but it's still expected to be a grounding and measuring stick, just not strict adherence in every single case.. Frost's stuff is still in the works, there is room to make it a guideline and too loosen it up a bit. But no one has actually given any real applicable ways to do that. It's just been "Make it less strict" but if no one knows how we can't go anywhere with that.
 
If you make it a guideline, submitters who want numbers -- and likely assured approval -- can use it. Those who don't want numbers, and also don't want to engage in PvP or factional combat, can skip it.

Seems reasonable.
 
The reason no one can tell you how to loosen it up is because numbers don't loosen. They simply are. A number will always have its own value. This system doesn't account for design or purpose or any modification. An empty cargo ship could hold tens of thousands of missiles but for some dumb ass reason nobody can do that because we're letting OOC stuff affect the IC aspect of the story
 
Doshii Jun said:
If you make it a guideline, submitters who want numbers -- and likely assured approval -- can use it. Those who don't want numbers, and also don't want to engage in PvP or factional combat, can skip it.

Seems reasonable.
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I wouldn't say they can skip it entirely, but the numbers could possibly be made more vague or forgiving. But skipping it is a problem unless a submission is plot specific. Because even if they don't want PvP when they make it, someone else can still use said item if it's not locked to a plot.

I personally don't have a set of numbers that I think works 'better' than this, but I also am someone who focuses on modular and atypical tech, so I don't really need more than 8 weapon slots. I understand that's not the case for everyone, but someone has to give a number before progress can get anywhere with that.
 
Rizzo said:
The reason no one can tell you how to loosen it up is because numbers don't loosen. They simply are. A number will always have its own value. This system doesn't account for design or purpose or any modification. An empty cargo ship could hold tens of thousands of missiles but for some dumb ass reason nobody can do that because we're letting OOC stuff affect the IC aspect of the story
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If you see a problem then just point it out. Like for instance what you just listed, actually the system -does- allow that. Because if they were in in a cargo hold, they're either going into torpedo tubes, which have unlimited ammo, or have to be moved from the ship to a fixture point. And the ammo for 'self fired missiles' is not based on how many you have, but how many can be used without a significant reload time. And being in a cargo hold would mean a significant reload time, so what would be counted would be how many missiles you can have mounted at once.
 
Perhaps, but if the launcher is in the cargo bay that drops the reload time.

Here's another thing, what if a vehicle is too small for x number of weapons but qualifies based on the numbers. That's breaking the IC aspect of the story because there's no possible way a Mindy is carrying 128 pistols without a lot of tape. Is it extreme? Absolutely. But the numbers are there to be argued.

@Doshii Jun, that would create another invisible limitation IC.
"Why can't I bring my X fighter?"
'IDK, you just can't.'
 
Well there are two things in that case @Rizzo fistly, as that would be a modification, likely not how the article was submitted that would fall under whether the GM allows it. Second if it is how the article is submitted, that could either be talked over specifically with the mods when making the article for how to count it, or something could be designed from the tart for what can be done when repurposing other facilities on the ship.

Edit: Sorry forgot to reply to the *second part Rizzo. The thing about not being big enough to hold the number of allotted weapons would be handled the same way it likely would've when the system was part of DRv3, the mod would tell you those specific weapons are a no go because it's not possible to put them all on the object.
 
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