Tech Wars 101: The Issue and Discussion

Arbitrated said:

Let us not start attacking people themselves; this thread is about the setting not the players.

Click to expand...

Indeed. But it's annoying to see a familiar face continue to act like this isn't an issue on the site. Not only that, but trying to force it to become an act, rather than simply alerting and wanting to discuss something. It's that defensive posturing that even helps back the statement up. I, for one, am just tired of having to argue that just because something can be a certain way doesn't mean it should be.

It's also why I asked Zack to not derail it. And I ended up doing so myself. I told someone this would likely happen and it already has!

"Let's not make this all about USO" - Legix, moments before making this all about USO.

I don't think this is really about tech at all. It just seems like Legix is upset that USO has a lot of activity.

I don't really see a need to continue here.

I have long hated the numbers game that some people tend to play with technology.

An rp based system where tech is created for use in a plot, or generally created to fill some narrative gap for a faction, would be ideal for me. Then again, I typically prefer an informal system of plot interaction when it's necessary, and it seems like SARP has become quite formal recently.

Still, I think that people who make technology should keep in mind the scope of it's use. Will it be used to tell a good story. Which story. When. That sort of thing.

I think this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Everyone. Stop. I only brought up the U-1 as an example of tech with RP behind its development, and now everything is out of hand.

Went off to meeting and this looks like it got way off track <.< @Legix you should probably bring it back on track, and make it clear this isn't a topic about talking over specific situations of this. It's an awareness topic and about what might be done to help avoid the possible outcome.

USO is not the only faction being discussed in this thread; it is the most prevelantly discussed faction, but it is not the only one; I am taking part in a Star Organization plot myself and I do believe there are some sections that need to be... Slowed, for lack of a better word.

So for the next few posts let's keep the thread about non-USO examples and possible treatments for this potential problem.

Alex Hart said:

Everyone. Stop. I only brought up the U-1 as an example of tech with RP behind its development, and now everything is out of hand.

Click to expand...

This is precisely why I asked Zack to not reply here. Because it was pretty established it wasn't intended to be jabs aimed for USO exclusively nor was this to get things like that taken down.

ArsenicJohn said:

I think this is making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Click to expand...

I don't think mountains are things countless members come and like while replying they feel equally about this sort of stuff.

I'd really appreciate it if everyone who wants to simply make OP or stronger tech to take it to Open RP, where it isn't forced upon the canon. Because if it really doesn't matter and people just want to RP, then that's the ideal way to do it. The official setting isn't in need of people who don't care about the technology that is introduced into it. If there are elements intentionally being made better and they feel that it doesn't matter... then being official doesn't matter.

Or am I mistaken?

This is about the fact that we have a very bad mentality about allowing technology just "because we can" and this deliberate attempt to derail the thread from Zack, Gallant indicating he just uses it for narrative, and Ira suggesting it's just to throwaway? It makes me more concerned. This isn't to disrespect Gallant: I actually agree with him that technology can/should be narrative... and as he points out, people should view their technology through a grand scope as well. This isn't being done and it needs to start happening.

This thread and its purpose still remain to alert people to the issues with some submissions, explain the arguments that have broken out, and hopefully find a way for us to all agree on some manner to avoid this growing issue. Because that's what is going on: It's growing and becoming more prevalent.

And that mentality needs to end. Period. Tech wars cannot repeat in SARP if we want to keep the setting from going into a toxic spiral like it has in the past over these matters.

Do you have any suggestions for how to fix this?

Well I think that's part of why he called Wes at the start. The only real solution is slightly changing the approval standards and also making sur epeople remember those rules. Other than that it's awareness and hoping to get people to agree and stop doing it. So until Wes shows there isn't much that can be done.

ArsenicJohn said:

Do you have any suggestions for how to fix this?

Click to expand...

Yes: awareness and some discussed agreement for ways to slow this down and, hopefully, bring it to a halt.

The biggest thing we can do is try to exercise the site's rights on these rules and ensure that these technology leaps are RP'd and genuinely necessary.

The second is to encourage those who aren't willing to do prep-RP to simply not approve it and keep their plot as Open RP. If people want to RP but not be bothered to reign in things, then that board was created with that purpose.

The third and most insignificant thing would be to start actually enforcing these rules and people reporting instances of when it occurs in the chat to the thread. This isn't the best method as it would likely cause disagreements and ideas of "oh, well they're just doing it to spite me". That's not what we want, as the reason this was even made was to ensure we can address it without it blowing up further and causing IC and OOC issues via the tech advancing. If it triggers a fight without advancing, we accomplish nothing.

Syaoran said:

Well I think that's part of why he called Wes at the start. The only real solution is slightly changing the approval standards and also making sur epeople remember those rules. Other than that it's awareness and hoping to get people to agree and stop doing it. So until Wes shows there isn't much that can be done.

Click to expand...

Syaoran typed faster, but yeah. This is the basic version and, as I indicated, the immediate purpose and solution. This is about showing the fact that this problem is genuine and allowing people to discuss it, so Wes can understand this isn't just some "localized" problem. My hope is that his interest in bettering his setting and his position will better allow him to think of other solutions that may be better than the three presented and the current one to simply warn/ward against this behavior.

It's kind of a difficult issue to tackle. On one hand, it doesn't really matter if someone makes really silly tech if they only intend to use it inwardly in their roleplay. Which is to say escalating tech doesn't matter too much if it doesn't impact the meta-plot or base setting balance, and the submission process (currently) tends to be good at keeping any sort of arms race in check. Yamatai will, thematically, always have the most cutting edge tech and best other nations in confrontations unless the narrative calls for it as with the Mishhu or Kuvexians.

The problem comes when people have delusions of grandeur or a thirst for some sort of "relevance." When such intentions are behind overpowered technology submissions they've gotta be stopped vigorously and constantly. SARP is a setting that must be maintained, not a shifting map board with some sort of possible endgame.

Screw this. I'm warping into this discussion.


See, my understanding of technology advancement is somewhat like this: You can only go so far with one piece of tech until it stops.

Take a bow, for instance. The key concept is that you nock an arrow, pull the string, and let the arrow fly. You can advance the bow's technology -- give it better sights, help you hold the arrow easier, use better composite materials -- but there's a certain point where you've made the best bow statistically possible, and as much as you'd like to try, the bow cannot get any better. The arrow can follow the similar philosophy.
Get what I mean? You'll at some point just end up with the best possible and there will be no further advancement. Sure, you'll have a bow you pull back, it auto-locks for, idunno, the nearest cruiser, shoots the arrow that pierces through the reactor...but wouldn't a railgun be better?

Oh look. Now we need to test the railgun. So we go back to the physics books, look through what we know, exploit those rules in physics, and create something new. So we make a railgun, and so it goes and we push the technological frontier onwards...

And so here we arrive at the fatal flaw of AI technology. Or rather, just any one entity building all the weapons, like Yamatai's "I request new weapon. AI develops new weapon. I am happy." It's a psychological thing -- just like how artists have art styles, writers have writing styles, and how sci-fi races tend to build things a certain way, such as Yamatai's sharp edges, Elysia's smooth curves, and USO's...I'm not sure because I don't follow the plot (please don't kill me).

One entity building weapons will result in all weapons following the rules and design patterns that one entity prefers. For instance, say a weapons development AI was wired to favor blunt weapon damage and kinetic force. That one entity would love to slap railguns on everything, and make big power hammers. If, for instance, you want something like plasma and cutting edges, that one entity will probably say something like "Yeah, but plasma can just be magnetically shielded away and cutting edges can't deliver force through armor." Even though all of us know that both have their own benefits.

There we go. That's AI developing tech covered. Onwards to the actual power creep.

If we want SARP to be realistic in its power creep, I personally feel that we need each faction to feel somewhat different in their design philosophies. For instance, if Yamatai, the faction which I personally associated with fast, heavily-armed gunships and modular PAs suddenly came up with something like the Hostile Power Armor, a solid metal block of a power armor, that would be weird. Unless Yamatai got a Neppy PA designer to make something and that guy decided, "Hey! I'm gonna take all this Yama-Dura, shove servos and circuits in it, and call it an armor!"

Pretty fat chance of that happening.

We need every faction's weapons to feel like their own. Sure, Elysia and Yamatai can trade notes and base designs off of each other (Tethys is #1 Elysian PA <3) but we need more than just every faction to prefer a certain type of shape.

Well, what do I mean by that? I refer back to the design entities. One prefers blunt trauma and kinetic damage, the other prefers cutting edges and plasma. Both have their own benefits (and drawbacks) but both work differently, feel different, and all-in-all are different. Yamatai to me are the kings of aerospace technology, with their aether. Neplesia is amazing at brawling with their heavy armors, and anything big and punchy.

And so it goes, every race preferring some form of design, weaponry, and style. That is my personal solution to the "power creep" problem. Sure, some faction can prefer shielding and such, and will be pretty hard to beat by a faction which doesn't like plasma, but I refer to the theory of trading notes, where the faction that doesn't like plasma tries its best to replicate the idea of plasma weaponry and makes something effective enough to ward them off, but by no means wins wars.

TLR

Just like an obtuse technology article.

You build a ray gun, show me a picture, tell me what it will sound like, and what color the discharge will be when it is fired. That's it.

I made barrier shields don't know how they work. They haven't been invented . I saw them on Farscape and made an article describing what you would see when they are activated. Save the words for the characters.

Well I will post something in here regarding technology, due to how plot canon rules work to use certain things such as vehicles, starships, and weapons they must be approved through the NTSE if they're not just one off plot elements. As such tech is typically written and created in a 'on demand' or in a 'anticipated demand' style of production, your newer factions typically leaning heavily on the latter usually following a roadmap of articles laid down by previous factions when it comes to items or systems they may need. Writing tech and creating things is a very demand task to start with, especially if its a high quality article. Just simple things like weapon systems between the art, coming up with the information, and putting it all in one piece that reads properly and is useful to its task can take hours. Lets not even get started on something like a starship article. Again this argument in my book was already settled when the tech article submission threads where approved, a tech race clearly isn't happening unless you consider the fact that the articles being used as the 'standard' or the bar are between 4 to 6 years old and wouldn't pass muster today. So in the end leave the horse alone and trust your NTSE mods, @Ametheliana and @CadetNewb are damn good at their jobs and both are invested to keep crazy tech off SARP's shelves. Additionally unless you actually make tech and setting articles for SARP..... I'd stand back and think about the efforts you criticize and remember you could be using something those going through the task of creating things for the setting made.

Arieg said:

Well I will post something in here regarding technology, due to how plot canon rules work to use certain things such as vehicles, starships, and weapons they must be approved through the NTSE if they're not just one off plot elements. As such tech is typically written and created in a 'on demand' or in a 'anticipated demand' style of production, your newer factions typically leaning heavily on the latter usually following a roadmap of articles laid down by previous factions when it comes to items or systems they may need. Writing tech and creating things is a very demand task to start with, especially if its a high quality article. Just simple things like weapon systems between the art, coming up with the information, and putting it all in one piece that reads properly and is useful to its task can take hours. Lets not even get started on something like a starship article. Again this argument in my book was already settled when the tech article submission threads where approved, a tech race clearly isn't happening unless you consider the fact that the articles being used as the 'standard' or the bar are between 4 to 6 years old and wouldn't pass muster today. So in the end leave the horse alone and trust your NTSE mods, @Ametheliana and @CadetNewb are damn good at their jobs and both are invested to keep crazy tech off SARP's shelves. Additionally unless you actually make tech and setting articles for SARP..... I'd stand back and think about the efforts you criticize and remember you could be using something those going through the task of creating things for the setting made.

Click to expand...

Trusting them is precisely why these rules have been overlooked and defenses that go against them are being allowed to be used. Quite simply, this is something that I discussed somewhat on subject with an NTSE mod who stepped down. You guys remember Doshii, right? He saw and agreed with my points in the matter, despite having been one of the NTSE Raising the standard of articles also has nothing to do with this. It has to do with the power creep and the deliberate creation of technology better than other tech statistically. A clear attempt to "game" the setting while also forcing others to adhere to it if they want setting accuracy.

You're defending the articles as "they take a long time to make and a lot of effort"... but how does that answer the issue? It shouldn't matter if someone spends hours on an article if they don't consider that it pushes technology and forces others to create new things. It's very clearly that this is more of the wrong mentality. Just because you spent a ton of time on something doesn't mean it deserves to be approved or is beyond requiring context and being healthy to the setting.

If I can come to agreement that the tech race is starting/has started with someone who was involved with the NTSE, have found countless other content creators agree (such as @Primitive Polygon and @FrostJaeger based on their liking of the OP. Sorry if I'm wrong), and can factually point out the issues, then there is a clear problem. It's also again pointing out what I said before, as people continue to not read the posts that I take time to type out the fact that...

It's to stop or slow the rate, as it's NOT necessary and it's being done in poor taste to simply outclass things, that the technology is racing ahead. You've made it clear that your COLPACT and Oshima group are intended to produce high-end military ships, both of which are now hinted to be PC/PC-supporting groups. Not because there's a need, only because you can. Ones you have in the past said were intentionally made to outclass things. I even recall a conversation between us about the Maximus, where you designed a tank INTENTIONALLY to make it look like shit so you could replace it.

This is what's wrong. Not the stuff you already got approved or that the NTSE slipped by with disregard to that submission rule, but the fact that we think the mentality of deliberately one-upping others is fine. Especially in your case, where there is barebones (if any) RP to back it up. You've completely taken disregard for the submission rules and the NTSE have been allowing it to go on because they cant refuse it if it conforms to the rules. And there-in is the moral dilemma. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

And unless you're saying the morals of people submitting content isn't important, then you should understand the issues presented with this mentality of purposefully forcing tech out of usage or forcing factions to make new technology isn't right nor healthy. It will force articles out to match or surpass tech, lest nations that have held power and setting-wise haven't been opposed suddenly lose it.

There are people who do make tech sitting here saying it's a problem. And saying "A tech race hasn't happened yet so it's find" is the worst strategy ever. Because Once the tech race starts it's too late. Because then someone is going to have to get the short straw, and possibly tech might get banned depending on the tech in question. Like what happened with interdiction. Just making something better than what is already there because someone feels like it or because "it's newer" is not good read. If we kept up with that the wiki would be like 90% outdated tech. Look at all the out dated power armors that clutter the site. That's the kind of thing that happens with even a slight and passive tech race. And while that's manageable. Just imagine when it happens with something that is less about the users skill and more about the stats of the object. Or if a group that thematically is the 'average' making something that's way above everyone else just because? Lots of articles might flood out.

In short taking no measures agaisnt something "Because it hasn't happened yet" leads to failure. Haven't you heard "If you fail to plan, you plan to fail"? There are many cases in real life that are even examples of that with regards to natural disasters as well. Maybe a tech race wont happen, that'd be great. But instead of leaving it to chance why don't we do something about it?

Tech moderation needs vision. A unified vision that achieves balance in-game. Not for any one faction or between factions, but as a whole setting.

Visions sometimes means submissions are rejected for things not so tied to rules, or by using an interpretation of a rule. As long as the vision is respected, it's worth doing.

Doshii Jun said:

Tech moderation needs vision. A unified vision that achieves balance in-game. Not for any one faction or between factions, but as a whole setting.

Visions sometimes means submissions are rejected for things not so tied to rules, or by using an interpretation of a rule. As long as the vision is respected, it's worth doing.

Click to expand...

Precisely. And as is, our answer isn't something that is as simple as keep letting people skyrocket out without looking to the other factions of the setting. The NTSE in its current state isn't delivering to this, based on the issues with the rules as indicated and the fact that even now we can point out balance issues indicated by content creators.

This is why I iterated that if people wanted to not care for the tech in the balance of the overall setting, then they can simply play in Open RP and not influence the main setting. But right now, it feels like the NTSE isn't approving things with the vision of "what's right for the setting" but rather only "what fits the rules". And this isn't to throw flak on them: it's understandable given the reaction to when something would be denied for this reason. And it wasn't on the whole, it was a specific group of people that would rage that the notion that their object was labeled "OP" and then would perform one of the highlighted excuses using Yamatai as a basis.

"Well, Yamatai has it so why can't I?"

Honestly, I think this discussion has addressed and brought a clearer picture to many people already. Just from the interest and discussion that occurred in chat and this thread, it's clear this wasn't a small issue. It seems many people are in agreement that there are some serious things that need to be addressed. With luck, Wes will get involved either today and tomorrow and give everyone a roadmap of some sort or some feedback to figure out if this is really what the site needs, if we need rule reformatting for submissions, or what have you.

I want to iterate I think discouraging creativity isn't the message to take away from this. Doshii and I had talked about possible solutions (as one example of a person I spoke to) and one idea we bounced around was a long period of NTSE shutdown to see that the site had people using things we already have. It was something that didn't seem even remotely possible because it would completely stifle creativity. Creativity isn't something I like to harm, as evidenced why I'd like to stop the tech race but not the diversifying of tech we already have to make different things or situation-fitting. So please, don't think this is a call that "ALL SUBMISSIONS END HERE" or some stupid movement or attack. This is a discussion about how we can slow the rate of game-changing technology being forced into the setting, about trying to make it more orderly or simply change the focus of going UP the tree to expanding its width. Diversifying the tech we have, as the submission rule page even suggests, should be our main goal... not this rush to introduce new tech, whether it has RP backing or not. Especially when the RP isn't always very in-depth or more than a JP or two.