We Have Enough Factions (For Now)

To all of this I say ys

An NPC faction and its assets can be used much like a monster in a monster Manuel. EMphasis should be made in the article on how they would interact with the setting and it's factions.

If interaction is minimal then it isn't even an npcs faction and shouldn't be in the wiki.

I think this is a great idea, overall!

I think that we really could improve a lot of things if we tried to clean outdated articles and bring them up to par; even Yamatai itself has a few items on the wiki which simply are decrepit.

A few people are aware of the Elysian overhaul, which is still months off before we'd consider it worthy of being a proper faction again, let alone planning for what a plot would do.

USO has done pretty well with expansion, but I think there needs to be some updating on it as well. Personally, they seem to be getting a bit too militaristic for pioneers (they would be considered pioneers yes?), and from a couple of searches their sort of "home front" fields seem a little on the old side.

I'm not saying that only these three factions need work, I'm not saying that any other faction is perfect, I'm just delivering some examples of what I've seen from the effects of going "wide" instead of "deep". Additionally, they are my opinions, and should not be taken as any sort of attack or comparison.

The idea of temporarily limiting the introduction of new factions does interest me; it would make sure new players learn the setting by using it, rather than trying to modify it.

You know I back this. I have a couple of questions and comments, though.

Make it more clear that submitting NPC background factions is for all GMs to use, not for personal use. This is a character-based RP, not a nations RP.

• How should we handle one-off GM tool factions that occur only in our plots? I've been told they don't need to be submitted, but I want to verify that.

Clarify the difference between people who submit NPC factions and people who actually run playable factions (FMs). Maybe different banners?

• I don't see a need to have any more banners. If people want to know who created an NPC faction, they can look at OOC or recent revisions.

Figure out ways to reward people for building on to existing things instead of making little islands.

• Nice

Put more detail into the existing playable factions and try to set them up for long-term success.

• Can you explain how you want this done?

Whatever you decide Wes, I'll work with it. Personally, I have some concerns about this limiting people's creativity that they could bring to the table, cause I'm wondering what kind of protections you're giving the NPC creators. I think @LittleWasp and the I'ee are the best example of how things could work, but people still ask for her input, direct or otherwise, when the I'ee and their assets show up in roleplay. Will people still have to do that under these rules or is it a free for all? In other words, if all the NPCs have to be open for everyone to use, then what happens when the inevitable happens and a fight happens over how the NPCs are being portrayed?

I'm not a huge fan of this, a lot of what draws people to SARP is being able to make their own stuff, but who am I to stand in the way of a little A-B Validation? How about we make the listed changes then after 3 months we re-evaluate, decide what to keep and what to throw out?


Also, does this mean there are no more NPC FMs?

Acewing13 said:

Will people still have to do that under these rules or is it a free for all? In other words, if all the NPCs have to be open for everyone to use, then what happens when the inevitable happens and a fight happens over how the NPCs are being portrayed?

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The current "rules" don't demand that you ask FMs anything about their stuff. Doing so is a matter of respect for someone else's creation and a desire to learn about doing something right. I could go make an I'ee Princess for Dig-It and only Legix would really have to approve it.

So the best way to avoid "a fight," both now and in the future, is to be a good person and shoot content creators a PM before you use something they wrote. If you were running a D&D campaign and could text the people who made it, wouldn't you take that opportunity and get things right?

raz said:

The current "rules" don't demand that you ask FMs anything about their stuff. Doing so is a matter of respect for someone else's creation and a desire to learn about doing something right. I could go make an I'ee Princess for Dig-It and only Legix would really have to approve it.

So the best way to avoid "a fight," both now and in the future, is to be a good person and shoot content creators a PM before you use something they wrote. If you were running a D&D campaign and could text the people who made it, wouldn't you take that opportunity and get things right?

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This is probably why I support the premise that NPC FMs should have the rights to say "no" to people who aren't using them properly. NPC factions are part of the setting that are truly just as important as the 8 we'll have narrowed down as the "main" factions (until they pop inactive or more shenanigans occur or some matter. Dunno how long the idea will last, even if I like it).

And as a note: if this means those 8 aren't going to be dwindled down further, then I'm all for the idea of a max of 8 "main" factions. But people should and likely always will have their own "mini-factions" in the forms of independent corporations. I don't think there's anything stifling/stopping people from that in these rules. At least, I'd hope not... especially since I want to explore a very independent and small faction-like corporation within the independent realm for Dig-It.

All-in-all, this all makes sense. However, not sure why the Lorath are there. They're Nepleslians now, with something in the works that'll make them akin to a sub-faction like Asteria/Elysia for Yamatai. Really no need for them to become an "NPC faction" when until that happens they'll simply be Nepleslian. The old Matriarchy no longer exists as a faction, after all.

And @Wes - I'll state here that I don't like the idea that FMs would be held differently. I expect an NPC FM to be JUST as empowered as a player-one, as they both need to be treated with proper respect and story-driven through working/appearing in plots. The one exception would maybe be "generic enemies" like the Rixx, who have zero premise beyond be scum. Good example would be the Abs, as @Syaoran would likely want to keep them grinding along behind the scenes and ensure anyone who's from those worlds is properly representing the culture even if they're for an independent or other faction.

I agree that new factions have been a source of controversy and conflict. I'm of the opinion that the I'ee were a 'perfect storm' that would be hard for me to replicate again. I'd be in support of limiting the amount of new factions being created, and instead focus on existing factions getting some love.

I don't think anyone has any beef with the I'ee.

You keep doing your thing.

In truth, I'm quite wary of this since it would effectively bar an entire avenue of new things coming into the site. On the other, I do understand where you're coming from Wes, and your concerns are my concerns as well. If we do go ahead with this, I suggest it only be a moratorium that's regularly re-evaluated every few months. Maybe somewhere between 3-6 of them? During the evals, perhaps anyone that wants to make a new faction would have to make a pitch good enough to pass muster?

Again, I'm wary of this idea, but I think some sort of middle ground might be best.

I don't know if it's an idea that's been discussed already, but I was thinking that a 'pilot' plot might be useful for gauging the value of submitted factions: A simple plot that people can drop in on with some quickly-crafted characters that gives an idea of what the creator intends to do with the faction and how it will involve the existing factions in the setting.

For example, if I were to do this with the I'ee, I'd use my treasure-hunt idea as the pilot plot. It'd involve a crew of aliens (that is, non-I'ee) working together with an I'ee ship to search for some ancient, alien weaponry/ships in the debris fields in the I'ee home system.

Hm. That's not a bad idea. We do need some way to gauge the viability of them.

Wow, this is just...this discussion. Okay, I think something should be made very very clear with this all. @Wes you are thinking about 'factions' wrong here. There are too many 'factions' but 'factions' and 'nations' are two separate things. The problem here is not the number of nations, but the lack of any real reason to have the nations actually form close alliances and pacts. This is in part because of there's hardly any Nation vs Nation stuff going on (which isn't per say bad, but the problem is there is no attempt to try and compensate for that missing stimuli) and that there isn't much effort put into trying to group 'established' players together.

Generally speaking, FMs make a grab for new players when they join, but once they've settled into a group, things start getting a bit cliquey and we're left with not just in character factions, but out of character cliques forming. Rather than trying to cut down on the number of nations, we should be trying to increase international relations beyond just wiki fluff. @Nashoba and @Ametheliana are both doing a good job of this from what I see and actually bringing it into RP, and not just requiring new people to these RPs, but bringing in people who tend to play only 1 nation to interact with characters from another nation.

Either way, though NPC factions/nations also need more respect if you're going to want people to bother with making them. It doesn't matter if it's a 'main faction' or a 'background' one, people have to put work in to make and maintain them. And I feel a lot of people sympathize with my feelings that it disgusts me to see people -wanting- NPC factions to lose their ability to protect themselves from being misused or misrepresented. Yes NPC factions should be encouraged to be used by many GMs to work in their plots, but there needs to be some level of protection.

For instance, with the Cloud Harbor I'm building, I don't want someone to just come in and say "Oh I want to use that to have a huge army invade" and I have no say in it because the Abwehrans are NPC. I didn't make the Cloud Harbor for that. NPC Nation FMs are people too, they have the same amount of hours in a day as everyone else, and their time and effort deserve respect.

I think Syaoran's getting to the root of the problem here. If we promote more interplay between factions, I think this would be much less of a concern and avoid cliques and the like. Nipping it in the bud more or less.

Syaoran said:

And I feel a lot of people sympathize with my feelings that it disgusts me to see people -wanting- NPC factions to lose their ability to protect themselves from being misused or misrepresented. Yes NPC factions should be encouraged to be used by many GMs to work in their plots, but there needs to be some level of protection.

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THIS THIS THIS THIS.

I'm mostly on-board with the proposed changes - and to be honest, I think the number of major player factions is kinda excessive as it is - but they strike me as a bit of a band-aid? And I think there should absolutely be some protection for NPC factions. We need them to be available for everybody's use, but we need to make sure we're Getting It Right when we make use of other peoples' creative output, too.

Syaoran is also 100% on-point with the need for greater interplay between nations. Diplomacy, friction, incidents, alliances, fissures. If we have, what, eight major nations, we need to work with each other to pull all the (in-character) dramatic and narrative potential that represents. It doesn't need to be PvP Battle Time (I don't think anyone really wants that), but even allies, trading partners, and coalitions have all sorts of disagreements, dealings, and drama to be exploited.

tl;dr we have a potentially complex ecosystem of nations that is still, mostly, a bunch of islands. Making the existing nations not islands addresses the root of many of our issues.

CadetNewb said:

I think Syaoran's getting to the root of the problem here. If we promote more interplay between factions, I think this would be much less of a concern and avoid cliques and the like. Nipping it in the bud more or less.

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It'll take more than interplay, but that's one of the steps towards what it will really take. What we need is -real- alliances. Not just ones that are there as backstory. We need our alliances to be as present and real in RP as the bad blood between Yamatai and Nepleslia was. It needs to be more than just something that is handled behind the curtains or in small little plots for the people with the diplomatic characters. Normal players need to feel it and see it in action, not just an "Oh now I can make this race and put them on this faction ship since they're allies now"

I think, once we get these alliances settled in again, we're going to need our GMs to actually portray this in action where appropriate. It might not be the biggest thing in a plot's story arc, but showing off 'teasers' of the various other factions out there might be a good hook to get players traveling around the site a bit more. Right now, our biggest weakness is that everything is its own sandbox or island, with the distribution of players being uneven as a result. If RPing things more like being part of a galaxy rather than a stand-alone is one step, I'm for it.

Syaoran said:

What we need is -real- alliances. Not just ones that are there as backstory.

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This means people interacting who, quite frankly, don't always enjoy interaction. That will make alliances work. Much like they were with the International Relations Conferences.

I'm not here to work. That's something I get paid to do. I'm here to enjoy myself.

We have found in the past that diplomacy, alliance-building, all of that soft power RP is short-lived and not particularly interesting.

It's also incredibly messy. There's no GM, no plotline, no agreed outcome. It involves GM- and FM-level players who have overlapping rights.

Plotships, military units and small vessels are the mainstay RP plot-style for good reason. Even USO uses it to some extent.

Syaoran said:

Either way, though NPC factions/nations also need more respect if you're going to want people to bother with making them.

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What if we don't want anymore made? What if we've got enough?

Syaoran said:

And I feel a lot of people sympathize with my feelings that it disgusts me to see people -wanting- NPC factions to lose their ability to protect themselves from being misused or misrepresented.

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Personally speaking, I don't want NPC factions to lose the ability to protect themselves. What I want is give-and-take. GMs remain the power on this site because they create plots, entertain players and grow the RP. FMs and GMs need to work together. There should the understanding that if the GM can't get what they need out of an NPC faction, they should do something else. Don't jam a round peg in a square hole. On the flip side, if an FM of an NPC faction is holding their arms around the faction, disallowing potential variances, then what good is the faction outside of the arms of that FM (and maybe their associated plot)? I say none.

Everyone needs to flex a bit.

I target no one faction with these words. For new players, my view on new factions is "no more, for many years." Others likely will vehemently disagree with me, and that's OK.