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We Have Enough Factions (For Now)

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I'm not going to go after your entire post, but I think you misunderstand what we're suggesting regarding factions interacting Doshii. I can't speak for Syaoran, but I'm thinking that if you're operating nearby Abwehran assets against the Kuvexians or the Mishhu or what have you for an example, it'd be a courtesy to have some Abwehran NPC forces interact with the players a little. Woo them with that Schwarzenegger accent and such as part of a supporting cast. A teaser to the bigger setting so to say.
 
This is all true, and fair, and I think it's absolutely fine that the focus of RP is and will remain on plotships. Ideal, even. It's what most people are looking for out of a Space RP - doing adventures in Space.

I don't think we need to do a lot of diplomatic minutiae in character. I do think the diplomatic minutiae needs to exist and matter. And yes, that does mean FMs and GMs need to talk and hash some things out.

I'm gonna use Star Trek as an example, because hell, why not. It's about The Federation, it basically always follows a single Federation ship (or space station), and it's rarely if ever *about* the diplomacy and conflict that is happening on a broad scale, but it sure does react to it, recognize its existence, feel its effects. That's what I think we need. We need these different islands to have boats between them, bridges, teleporters, the like.

As @CadetNewb notes above, when NPC factions show up for a plot reason, members of that faction making cameos that hint at the setting goes a long way. When there's diplomatic conflict between, oh, let's say Nepleslia and Yamatai (not that that could ever happen ) it may not be the focus of our plotships, but it needs to carry through. A trade embargo is boring to roleplay the minutiae of, but can make for magnificent extra conflict for a plotship's mission, throwing wrenches into the works. A little bit of FM cooperation can go a long way towards creating a really interesting backdrop for those plotships to shine in. And it makes everything feel more alive. Like a setting, rather than eight separate ones that mostly keep to themselves.
 
I'm not saying every player needs to participate in diplomatic RP, nor actually does there -need- to be specifically diplomatic RP. For isntanceWhat Nashoba is doing that I said was a good example. The crew of 3 different ships are doing a mission where they will work together to some extent, and have debriefings together.

As for the terms of power, honestly, while GMs are very important, I don't think the amount of 'power' they have should be all that high. It's not that I want people to trample over them, and it's not that I think Gms are 'replaceable' either. But GMs have a very very active role that is very very protected by nature. When I GM runs a plot, GM word is law unless they do something big enough to warrant calling in a higher power to fix it. They also have their subforum they get control of and they can easily monitor everything involving their plot. Whereas content creators can't really monitor how their content is used unless they daily search for keywords to see what people are saying about it. The reason there's never a lot of focus on GM rights and power is that it's a naturally protected situation.

Edit: When I say that Nash is bringing together different ships, they're ships from 3 separate 'factions'
 
Who will play the Abwehrans? The FM? One of their friends? Why can't you, the GM, say "hey, NPC FM, can I work some Abwehrans here? I'll make them look good." Then you follow through on making them look good. Or bad, if that's what you and fellow NPC FM can agree to. Can't agree? Rewrite so the Abwehrans aren't involved, or are stand-offish, attack but don't assist the GM's PCs. Maybe the GM wants to kill some Abwehrans, but will set up some payback later.

That's what I mean by flexing.

Orion said:
And it makes everything feel more alive. Like a setting, rather than eight separate ones that mostly keep to themselves.
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As long as you can get them to play well together, and everyone agrees to give some and take some. That traditionally has been difficult. Trust is low.
 
Doshii Jun said:
That traditionally has been difficult. Trust is low.
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Which is a different but related problem, and one I certainly don't have any more answers to than you or Wes or the long-haul players, but one we need to work on nonetheless.
 
raz said:
Why can't the GM say "hey, NPC FM, can you play some Abwehrans in my plot?"

That's literally what managers are for. Lol.
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Because that makes the managers players, and takes the NPCs out of the hands of GMs. Then you ask the question of, "Well does the manager have complete control? Partial? None? Where do we draw the line?"

The creations need to be wieldable by someone other than the FM. The FM needs to be able to let go.
 
I think it'd boil down to the FM. If it were up to me, I'd just give the GM a thumbs up regardless of whether or not the portrayal is positive or negative so long as it's accurate, since everyone has their good and bad sides anyways. Besides NPCs like this though, there's more subtle ways to do it too. Take for example the supposed food supply problems Yamatai had during Mishhu War II. If there was a trade agreement for food from Nepleslia for an example, and something came up that caused a food embargo, Wes could have just had Hanako and crew be short on food, be forced to ration their rations even more, and complain/gripe about "Those meat headed Nepleslians!"

Also, +1 Hunger -1 Morale Status Debuff
 
I have two NPC factions so I guess I have some wisdom in this. One of them has been used and one of them is going to be used. The GM that is using both has been ever-present in dealing with me and my wishes for the NPC faction. I thank them for that and there have been times where I had to say, "No," to certain requests, but more times that I was able to say, "Idk/ idc you do you and have fun!" If I wasn't talked to about this some things would have gone horribly wrong.

For example, Yamatai and Nepleslia are going to be fighting the same enemy soon. Someone wanted to fight that enemy in a Yamataian plotship while I'm trying to wrap up fighting that enemy in a Nepleslian plotship. If Yamatai and Nepleslia were to create this common enemy too soon, we'd both be at a strong disadvantage ICly and OOCly. But the GM was willing to wait and hold off on using this NPC enemy. That meant the world to me, but if we treated GMs as superior to FMs, then I could have been bypassed and we would have Nepleslia and Yamatai fighting the same war too soon. This was avoided because FMs have rights.

Faction manager rights had to be brought up on a serious level, when they were going to be used in a way that was counter to my wishes. I don't know what I would have done if the player/ GM that wanted to do what they were planning to do with them and, frankly, the plans were a little inappropriate to bring up in polite company. This was before they were submitted and if I didn't have FM rights over the faction, I likely would have not even submitted them and that enemy would not be a part of SARP today.

That's how much FM rights play a role in the creator being talked to and approached about their creation and they are just the examples I have, I bet there are others that better highlight why the conversation about NPC FM rights being sidelined should not even be happening.

Ira said:
@Wes what if we made a new banner for npcs faction dudes? Like content creator of the such and such?
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Edit: This was brought up int he first post and I strongly recommend against it.
 
I know what you're referring to Ame. I don't blame you for taking that stance, but personally, if I was in the same position, I wouldn't have cared for a negative or positive depiction, but so long as it was an accurate one. What was asked of them was quite distasteful since it was just for one person, however, I prioritize there being content. Personally, I'd allow such a thing to happen to my own creations so long as there was more than one person making requests and consider it a form of flattery.

It's just my opinion, but I think this is more grey territory. As much as FMs and NPC FMs need rights, we need to be careful that it doesn't go too far either.
 
If we want SARP to be a place where GMs can houserule anything and ignore manager input, we shouldn't even have managers. There's no point in having them if even the most minor comment from managers is met with hostility or rejection.

In my personal experience, I'm always coordinating with my FMs. When I want to do something as a GM/independent player in Yamatai, I shoot Wes a PM and he usually okays it. But when he offers suggestions or makes comparisons, I can tell my idea is off and adjust it. Because he created SARP and Yamatai and knows better than I do.

For the Ersetu, I will shoot Gunsight an instatant message whenever I make a post that details life in the Royal Navy. The one time I didn't, I made a mistake because I thought my interpretation was fine. He didn't care, but the fact that I had my character sleep in a bed instead of a hammock was inaccurate and that's a lame feeling.

tl;dr: We should listen to our mangers. We should love our managers. They write the source material, so saying "THE GM IS SUPERIOR" is obviously the wrong way to look at it. Taking FM advice seriously makes the whole RP better. Like, if creator input isn't welcome then just do away with the whole shared continuity and make each plot a self-contained "campaign," and only let the Eucharis be 100% canon.
 
First off, can I just say that its nice to have this conversation without the half expected arguing? I could do without the passive aggressive 'its obvious who we're talking about, but since we're not naming them its okay', but you can't get everything.

Back on topic, I agree with Doshii that GMs are the heart of the site and the reason anything gets done. As I've said in other places, GMs should have priority in how their plots work out. However, I do think that there needs to be some kind of framework that makes sure that the FMs get to be involved to some degree, even if its a simple go/no go. A different banner would be useful and personally I think its ironic that the person with the most banners is against getting more, but if we don't want to do that, I'd be fine with that.
 
Acewing13 said:
I could do without the passive aggressive 'its obvious who we're talking about, but since we're not naming them its okay', but you can't get everything.
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Acewing: Goes on to not name me here:

Acewing13 said:
A different banner would be useful and personally I think its ironic that the person with the most banners is against getting more, but if we don't want to do that, I'd be fine with that.
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Let's stay focused guys.

As I said in chat, the reason why I'm hesitant to agree to FM rights going that far is because my priority is on the site as a whole. That means an emphasis on accurate portrayal, not saying yes or no to the situations I like or don't like seeing things in since that would mean more RP. However, I do understand why an FM would say no to a negative situation created with out of less-than-good intent. That's why, for me, this is a grey area, and I'm not sure which to side with.
 
I think we are getting off point/topic. I still don't know why we would think about taking away any power from FMs of NPC or otherwise and don't think we should start awarding banners to someone that has made a few pages of a wiki. Award those banners after they have successfully integrated that NPC into a plot for a few missions/arcs, perhaps, but not simply for making a few pages.

I think it's not ironic that I wouldn't want people getting more banners when I have many, I think it's telling. I have many and don't think I should get any more because creating an NPC faction is not for something that deems a banner necessary. In your eyes I may be banner-hungry and should want more, but in reality, I want less and don't think some of them are as meaningful as the FM banners and GM banner I have. Just had to address that, hopefully that can close that portion of the discussion.
 
Uh, let's drop the banner talk guys. Please.

Staying on topic, the discussion took this turn towards FM rights since the relationship between FMs and GMs can and has sometimes been less than ideal. I know that some sites apparently have a 'Be Nice Rule', where FMs may deny the depiction of their creation in scenarios they believe to have been done specifically out of spite or malice. However, the problem with that is that it's prone to abuse; an FM can simply reject every situation that puts their creation in a negative light. I'm thinking that to prevent that, every time the 'Be Nice Rule' is used, Staff or Wes has to take a look and make a ruling.

It's about the same how things happened, but with the difference of being set as an actual rule. That might be a better balance to avoid the situation you were in, while keeping anyone less scrupulous than yourself from abusing it.
 
I'm in agreement on a general level with @CadetNewb , myself, although I do have a favoring towards FM power. I'm going to us a somewhat absurd example:

(DISCLAIMER: this is an example about GM/FM interaction, not the creation of new factions which is an incredibly similar topic.)

I make a nekovalkyria that sides with the kuvexians in this war. Not an NMX, but a standard neko like you'd see in a plumeria or Super Eikan or what-have-you. Wes, as the faction manager for Yamatai (and in a way, he is also the faction manager for the Kuvexians) , I am certain would not allow this character to exist. So, okay, what if I decided to become a game master, grabbing a few people and creating a plot? Alright, well IN THEORY if we had an "all out" system where GM>FM every time, there is... Technically nothing that could be done to stop me from making this Kuvexian neko happen.


As far as saying that FM>GM in every situation goes, the main point has shown up a few times: the Faction Manager may end up "blocking" people from using their assets because they do not want to, in a way, have their power challenged. A sort of "God" personality where they believe they should be unchallenged within their realm.

With that said, I still do favor my support towards FM power. I don't think they should be absolute, of course, however I can think of a few other scenarios where a GM's approval/authority at its current level may contradict a large amount of information from a faction, and yet still be considered viable. I think, if a GM believes a FM is trying to abuse power in a way and "block" people from using said faction except in very specific circumstances or in specific ways, then there should be some formal discussion, preferably with an unbiased mediator of some type. Sometimes, issues like this do not arise from people trying to keep everything to themselves, but instead because the parties involved fail to communicate to each other properly, causing them to have the "wrong idea" of what the other has planned.

Is it a perfect solution? Heck no. I won't make any promises that if this idea was put into practice that it would actually work, either. I'm just depositing the idea here, because it is simply one solution of many possible ones, each with their own effects in the short and long term.
 
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